Incorrect username or password

 
28-04-2024 22:23
|
Season 90 · Week 4 · Day 27
|
Online: 7 966

Football

Football » English » ManagerZone talk

MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[WCE]
President
I have always been an advocate for a strong correlation between SOT (shots on target) and result. The logic behind this is that users have a much easier time understanding and accepting a loss if the opponent created more chances. You don't want the game to look like a spreadsheet, so having some results against play is both acceptable and needed in my opinion. An occasional 15-10 = 1-2 is ok. However, 35-5 = 0-0 is not needed. Neither is 18-7 = 5-5(!) or 21-1 = 0-1. Such results make users rage-quit in despair. It shouldn't even happen once in a thousand.

"Apple is like a ship with a hole in the bottom, leaking water and my job is to get the shop pointed in the right direction". This was said by Gil Amelio as he was about to be thrown in favor of Steve Jobs. This quote sticks to my mind when I think of the current development of ManagerZone.

ManagerZone has lost +90% of its userbase during the last 10 years or so. The recent 17th Anniversary Cup had a participation of 8 221, even though it was free to non-CMs. MZ Anniversary Cup 2008 had a participation of 144 637. Of course, a large portion of the 144k of users that signed up for the cup back then, were non-paying users. It does however show how unpopular the game has become. Lets use an optimistic estimation and say that the game now has 15k active users (probably less), and that half of the userbase missed out on the recent free cup. So, 15 000 people in the world are playing ManagerZone today. Is it just in my head, or does this number sound ridiculously low? Nowadays, everybody have Internet. Even a mediocre blog in Norway generates more visits per day than 15k.

I have never understood why certain aspects/features exist in the game today. The form-system for one. You'd be surprised how difficult this is for a new user to understand. And it is also difficult to explain it to them. I have a friend who quit this game years ago because he wasn't able to maintain a good form. A simple solution would have been for Crew to remove the chance of players to become tired.
Another user quit this game when both his strikers broke a leg in the same match. We are talking about +40 day injuries.

If a feature makes 0,1% of the users quit the game, then it should be removed. The leakage has to be fixed! I doubt anybody will quit the game because there aren't enough long-term injuries, or because it has become too easy to manage the form.

Then there is the way deterioration was implemented. You fail to understand your users when you remove balls from their beloved players. Yes, it is a small small fraction of the hole ball, but visually it is 1 ball. Look at the image below for a smoother way of implementing deterioration. I spent 1 calorie coming up with this idea, and it is from the very top of my head. A simple icon that shows how far the deterioration process has come. And voila, we can still compare the skills of players from various era.



This player is fully deteriorated (10 out of 10). As a 32 year old, this icon would be approximately 5 out of 10.

Back to the simulator. Did you know that you can win SOT (shots on target) in 91% of the matches in the top-division of WL, and still get relegated? I won SOT in 20 out of 22 matches, but in 12 of the 20 matches I was robbed. Ergo, in 60%(!) of the matches where I won the SOT, I either lost or drew the game.



In Champions Cup I was knocked out despite winning SOT 18-10. The team who beat me went all the way to the final, where they lost against play. Last season ALL 3 Elite cup-finals went against play. Both in Top Teams Cup, Cup Winners Cup and Champions Cup, the team that had the fewest shots on target won the game. The team that got robbed in Top Teams Cup sold out (Ultra Copos). I was thinking of the same (I was the one who lost the Cup Winners Cup). In U18 NE I managed to draw against the bottom team, despite winning SOT 18-7. The result was 5-5! My 8 ball GK (best I have had in years) with great partials, conceded 5 out of 7 shots.

5 hours ago I lost the final of the Fitness Cup S67 against play aswell. It is interesting, but I doubt I have lost SOT in more than a handful of games this entire season, counting official games. It happened once in the league, once in Victory Cup 2018 (grand final).

Then there is U21 Paraguay. Here there was somewhat poetic justice that they knocked out Sweden. Simulator is a bi-product of Swedish comm... socialism. Points for everybody. An extension of "trophies for everybody" that was implemented a few seasons ago. It seems the current Crew forget that this is a game. You won all your games in 5th division? Sure, here you go, special Elite achievement for you.



If Crew wants less users as a way of reducing work load for their servers and hamsters, then I totally understand why they have created such an unfair simulator. I would however be more than a little bit concerned if I was an investor. I have played a heck of a lot of football manager games, and I have never come close to a match-engine where you can get relegated despite winning SOT in 91% of the games.

Recently there was a significant bump in the cost of PT. You probably have seen a lot of teams that has the username "NO MORE PT FOR MZ". Often written in Spanish. I totally understand the move by Crew, because the expenses remain the same. So when income is reduced as a result of their incompetence and lack of understanding this game, then those few souls who remain in this game has to pay way more to keep this sinking ship heading somewhere, anywhere. After all it is better to sink near the bottom of a coral reef than at 1000 meter depths where your only companions will be jelly fish.

Speaking of 3D. One year, almost to this day, a Crew member wrote the following:
"It's a matter of where we want to prioritize our time and effort. Back in 2000-2010 a 3D was a pretty cool thing for a management game to have, but these days people care less about the glossy surface and more about the depth of content. Developing a state-of-the-art 3D would basically exhaust all our available resources, in order to achieve something that we don't actually think the game really needs."

Fast forward a few months, and Crew could inform the community that all available resources was being exhausted in order to create something that the game didn't really need. 3D in all its glory is up and running again, to the awe of all the investors and 10 managers who watch their games in 3D.



I actually had to limit myself, because there probably is a limit to the amount of text in a post. I had a lot to say about the ultra-boring youth system, the lack of staff, facility, statistics, and how the game feels near identical to the game I started playing in 2003.
Edited: 03-02-2019 05:31
Total edits: 2
Views: 8618 Posts: 406
Previous
Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Next
 
Last Message

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Civilu why the long post? Also it makes no sense...

Anyways if civilu is right.. then the crew might not have the resources and expertise available to change this game. So this is the end.

If hanz is right, and crew said we won't fix the 3D and then they attempted to fix it, it's probably the politics that come from the headoffice and thunder and co had no choice. What if it was like, make sure you keep the legacy users and fixing the 3D was one way. I mean they have to show some sort of results for their work...

I would be interested on an official opinion on what are they planning to work/do after 3D is done. Also, on how are they planning to move this game forward with the limited resources available.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
dim7 wrote:
Thε best was the intensive camp and the destruction of the game is the deteriorations!! There is no logic to keep it..I recently sold a 25 years player for 15 millions...Why someone to give a huge amount when in 5 seasons the player will deserve 5?why you dont le us to enjoy our players for more seasons?Why you dont give a new interest in the market with the recalling of deteroriations?


I've never been against deterioration, it's a natural part of any players football career. So implementing it makes sense to me and is a good gameplay mechanic.

The problem was the intensive training camps you liked so much. Because everyone's players became superstars in one season, then deterioration was switched off until these players retired. I understand why people enjoyed this time in game, but it was completely unrealistic and when deterioration came back in 80-90% of users blew their tops off complaining about how unfair it was that older players should lose balls. I watched the whole episode and laughed my head off. Sure it meant a lot of people left the game, but those people were living on a cloud, basking in the sun and thinking the cushion I'm sitting on will always be soft. Well, they got a wake up call.

I agree people pay ridiculous transfer prices, but is a result of market demand and the ship has sailed on that problem as well.

I agree the youth system needs to be rebuilt from scratch, but it'll never happen.

The game essentially needs to be redesigned from the ground up to fit with what a modern day user football manager experience should be.

Where you can built and run your own team indefinitely

The ideas to do this really well have all been mentioned many times over, in multiple threads, but that is where they will stay as no investment mean nothing new (cosmetic redesign sure, but these aren't new features) will ever be implemented, and nothing will be taken away. So the cold fact of reality is, this is the game we will be playing for as long as Legacy users bring in enough money to not shut the game down completely.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[WCE]
President
scruttino:

Deterioration from a business perspective was a terrible idea. It is not in the best interest of ManagerZone to give paying customers a "wake up call".

If you implement something that is likely to cause x percentage of users to quit, then it shouldn't be implemented. Well, unless you are certain that deterioration will make the game very popular, thus new users will be drawn into the game. I really don't see how deterioration could ever have been that jar of honey.

Still, if you insisted on deterioration, it could have been implemented in a way without removing the balls from the players. The "base values" shouldn't have been tempered with. A separate icon indicating the level of deterioration would have been fine (taken into consideration by the sim of course). Problem was always, and still is, that players who start deterioration has x,00 due to maxing. So in the first couple of days every season, there is a complete carnage going on in the training report.

Deterioration was never the answer in preventing successful teams from being stacked with +30 year olds. Because, nothing changed. Old players is still the only path to success.

Regarding the crazy transfer market. I saw a player one day selling for 15 million EUR. A week or two later, he was re-sold for close to half of that. One day a GK was sold for 0,7 mill EUR. 4 days later he was sold for +2 mill EUR (no change in the skills). This is a bi-product of inflation. There is so much money going around, so people don't give a damn.

Inflation is partly due to the massive amount of teams who are just stacking up money playing Uxx only. One team (not mentioning team name) made a comeback a few months ago, sitting on 100 mill EUR. It's like playing MZ with cheat codes, and some people like that aspect. It doesn't take many teams like these to ruin the transfer market.

Income in this game should mainly come from senior level tournaments. Definitely no sponsorship money if you don't have atleast xx senior players. It should still be possible to play Uxx level competitions only, but just less lucrative than currently. And perhaps an upper level on how much money you can stack.

The ship might have sailed, but it still has the rudder and sails intact ;)

scruttino wrote:

The game essentially needs to be redesigned from the ground up to fit with what a modern day user football manager experience should be.

I agree. But the implementation should be done gradually. I would like to see them start with youths + new facilities + new staff.

The decimal should be removed, so that skills go from 0 to 100. No maxings, but a natural decline in training efficiency until there is no point training a certain player in a certain skill. Youths shouldn't arrive like a blank sheet of paper consisting of 12 balls, but more like a finished product.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
I have seen a few people mention a new youth system in this thread..

I posted the below suggestion on a new youth draft system some half a year ago but received only 1 reply. Perhaps it can get more exposure and feedback now??

https://www.managerzone.com/?p=forum&sub=topic&sport=soccer&forum_id=13&topic_id=12345779&post_id=44357263

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[WCE]
President
Lebanon21:

I gave it a read. There are elements there which I like. The downside though is that it seems a bit complicated, even for an experienced user like me. The game shouldn't become too difficult to understand for new users.

What I do agree is a good solution is to have a scouting system where the output is text based. After all, scouting isn't an exact science.

What I don't like is adding several skills into one "package". We kinda have that already, through the current flawed scout system. I don't feel this is the right path. It is a bit confusing.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[WCE]
President
civilu wrote:
.. this game, the core functions (player generation and maxings, training, simulator) have been purchased by MZ AB back in the days (from the Chinese - yes, the core game is made in China!)

I have never heard that story. Please elaborate. Source?

What I have heard/read (numerous times): Marcus Majewski coded a platform for a game when he was a student at Blekinge Tekniska Högskola. He then paired up with Johan Christenson and his father Göran Christenson. ManagerZone was the result. I am not sure we can blame old and buggy code on China..

I have met with actionhero (originally from Norway) who started working for ManagerZone early on. He told the same story.

That said, there have been cases in the past (former Crew team) where they weren't able to locate specific code, thus couldn't alter it. This might however be a case of messy code/structure. After all, the core of the game was programmed way back when by a student.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
hanzinho wrote:
I have never heard that story. Please elaborate. Source?


He had a dream... just another proof that you can't trust anything civilia says.

So then, if they have access to the code, theoretically this game can be turned around.

Will it?

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
hanzinho wrote:
scruttino:

Deterioration from a business perspective was a terrible idea. It is not in the best interest of ManagerZone to give paying customers a "wake up call".

If you implement something that is likely to cause x percentage of users to quit, then it shouldn't be implemented. Well, unless you are certain that deterioration will make the game very popular, thus new users will be drawn into the game. I really don't see how deterioration could ever have been that jar of honey.

Still, if you insisted on deterioration, it could have been implemented in a way without removing the balls from the players. The "base values" shouldn't have been tempered with. A separate icon indicating the level of deterioration would have been fine (taken into consideration by the sim of course). Problem was always, and still is, that players who start deterioration has x,00 due to maxing. So in the first couple of days every season, there is a complete carnage going on in the training report.

Deterioration was never the answer in preventing successful teams from being stacked with +30 year olds. Because, nothing changed. Old players is still the only path to success.


I agree it could have been implemented better,. But I'm not against it. When they switched off deterioration after the intensive training camps you saw the average age of senior starting 11s reach the point where people only replaced players when they retired. Now that was going on before the increase in training speed, but it escalated the problem. When I started playing every team in a premier division had squads over the age of 30, that now isn't the case, and the average age of competitive senior players still needs to come down further

Those who sold up immediately or in 1-2 season after the new training speed being introduced found it wasn't that much faster and regretted their decision very quickly

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
hanzinho wrote:
Income in this game should mainly come from senior level tournaments. Definitely no sponsorship money if you don't have at least xx senior players. It should still be possible to play Uxx level competitions only, but just less lucrative than currently. And perhaps an upper level on how much money you can stack.

The ship might have sailed, but it still has the rudder and sails intact ;)


While this has some merit, it's also problematic. By restricting how much Uxx teams can earn you are penalising them financially because they wouldn't be able to afford to buy some senior players.

Player sales is the number one way teams stack money. Sell off your senior team then run a youth only side for 10-20 seasons in a row, selling your graduates and 100 million EURO is not far away. Anyone can do that, all it takes is patience.

People stack money because of the transfer market inflation and the ever rising costs of buying the best players. Especially at U23 level, because you have both senior teams planning ahead and uxx team competing for the same players

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
I agree the decimal point should be removed so players have a percentage ball rather than ball count and that players should arrive with much better skills than they currently do. How a 10 ball youth even makes it on to a potential scouting roster is absurd. Now he might turn into Tom Brady in time, but when he went through draft camp everyone laughed at him. Their are so many players on the youth exchange board that make me wonder how they got there.

My idea for the youth system is to allow manager to define what types of players they want to recruit per season - 3 strikers - 2 Midfielders - 5 Defenders - and have a scout go out and find the best player that he based on the level of his own skills and the quality of your training facilities. He would then come back to you and say have a look at these boss. You pick the ones you like, cross off those you don't and say go back out and find me some more to replace the ones I didn't want.
Say it took a month for the scout to get back to you, that would allow you to do it 2-3 times a season.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
This way you know the players that are going to arrive at your club for the new season, their skills and playing position before they arrive. This is how modern clubs recruit players

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
About the youth system. I really think it's good enough at the moment with it's scouting and youth exchange. Now that they even arrive day1 made it so much more better.

You receive 7 youths day1 and you have 9 more to exchange. So you have 16 youths where you can pick 7 best you wish to start training with. Only downside I see to this youth system is that your not given an option to pay the scout to reveal the original youths potentials and you are forced to send them YTC to check em. If MZ would add a button into your own youths saying SCOUT, it would be awesome addition for it.

About the potential system in this game. Youths are 16yo when they join the team they have only played couple of years of football in full sized pitch and are even them selves figuring out what position suits em best at there. They switch position ect and in Finland we call it Fair Play and everybody plays (no wonder Finland doesn't do well in football). Some of em are better and some of em aren't that good. So that would explain you gonna get some random factor in current skills vs the potential.

http://mzplayer.se/?id=1012051124

Got this boy out of exchange and he has clearly liked to play the goal but still had potential of Speed, Shooting and Passing. But im not gonna complain about it cos he is a rare one.

Scout information have been really useful for myself and he haven't hit under 6 ball prediction yet and I think the scout can't give you under 6 predictions. Percents are as follows.

6 - 22%
7 - 35%
8 - 25%
9 - 14%
10- 4%

So even if they would start to give you information about their true potential and how far they would go with the skill you probably wouldn't be any more lucky than you are today. Another thing is that it would kill the meaning of maxing's and that's one of the things why I prefer MZ over Hattrick for example. Everybody would only accept players with 9-10 potential and scrap the rest. What would it do to the transfer market cos you probably wouldn't need it that much anymore cos you would hit consistently on big boys.

I can't say that much about simulator currently cos I haven't gathered any data about it. But now while i'm rebuilding my team i'm aiming high AverageJoe to see if it has any effect that my defenders has also ~7 shooting ect.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[MAS]
President
So sad reading all the comment here in this thread. Perhaps Crew could say something? Or is it true that MZ gonna be like PS in one way or another? I really hope that's not true. :/

Ang: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
@Maria - don´t worry. It has always been like that since I joined in 2006. People are complaining but still playing. It is true that deteriorations made people quit, and before that we had 1-2 years with a very bad simulator but since then it has been pretty stable ... but with fewer managers compared to when I started ...

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[WCE]
President
maria171 wrote:
So sad reading all the comment here in this thread. Perhaps Crew could say something? Or is it true that MZ gonna be like PS in one way or another? I really hope that's not true. :/

It is very unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future. As much as I disagree with resources being spent at 3D, they are atleast spending money developing this game. It would be worse if they didn't do anything, and reduced staff.

Things have looked far worse in the past, yet MZ survived.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
hanzinho wrote:
... You don't want the game to look like a spreadsheet, so having some results against play is both acceptable and needed in my opinion. An occasional 15-10 = 1-2 is ok. However, 35-5 = 0-0 is not needed. Neither is 18-7 = 5-5(!) or 21-1 = 0-1. Such results make users rage-quit in despair. It shouldn't even happen once in a thousand...


In my humble point of view this is the argument that sums it up!
It's really fun to realise that there are some seriously deep thinkers out there in regards to how the game should upgrade or transform or develop in order to meet modern demand, however I feel that the more one delves into the more the tendency relies upon a whole different game.

Which is no wrong at all! It's always good and helpful having your client's responding to your product in such a creative way. It's no good though showing signs of neglectfulness and dereliction when it comes to communicating with them.

The game, the code or simply the objectives of the development team may be limited to a certain level. And that is quite fine by me, it's fair enough.
My personal sincere objection is that, although so overly spoken by so many, I cannot recall Crew's interaction to honestly admit any restrictions and defaults of the game to the community. In the contrary, we only very rarely have been given tendencies to act in a particular way and promises to reason up with the sim. All quite significant aspects of how the game is implementing but in the end of the day I'm only experiencing sad decorations.

And the key-problem (i.e. tragically irrational match results) keeps revolving around all of us users. Most of us are just killing time waiting...

Good one hanz! Keep growing that stream!

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[WCE]
President
jere92 wrote:

You receive 7 youths day1 and you have 9 more to exchange. So you have 16 youths where you can pick 7 best you wish to start training with.

Thats the problem right there. It is impossible to know which ones are the best. It's not even a calculated guess. It's a blind guess. I am sure I have traded away many youths that had world class potential.

Starting balls tells you absolutely nothing. You can scout for their positional potential, which still doesn't tell you if they will be any good.

And then there is the problem that new users assume the youths are horrendous. They come with no balls! Is it a nice way of welcoming them into the game? Are they likely to stick around? Or would they be more likely to stick around if the youths looked like actual footballers, and not like 8 year olds who have never kicked a ball before?

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[WCE]
President
scruttino wrote:
While this has some merit, it's also problematic. By restricting how much Uxx teams can earn you are penalising them financially because they wouldn't be able to afford to buy some senior players.

I wouldn't use the word penalizing. They are just not receiving the same financial reward for not owning a senior team. They can still accumulate money, just not at the rate they currently do.

scruttino wrote:
People stack money because of the transfer market inflation and the ever rising costs of buying the best players. Especially at U23 level, because you have both senior teams planning ahead and uxx team competing for the same players

Generally speaking, people stack money because they previously had a failed attempt at senior level competition. They feel that if they have a truck-load of money, then they can "force" success. Usually they sell out when their players get close to deterioration and their trophy cabinet is still half-empty. You need more than money in order to be successful in this game.

I would like to see an upper limit of 50 mill EUR. I don't see why we should be allowed to save up 100 or 200 mill EUR. I am usually against restrictions, but not here. I would be hit aswell, since I am currently approaching 100 mill EUR (hockey) ;)

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
hanzinho wrote:
Generally speaking, people stack money because they previously had a failed attempt at senior level competition. They feel that if they have a truck-load of money, then they can "force" success. Usually they sell out when their players get close to deterioration and their trophy cabinet is still half-empty. You need more than money in order to be successful in this game.


I fit this bill perfectly :)

But the my reasons were twofold. I wanted to sell them while I could get an equal return on the cost it took to put the side together. But equally despite them being good players they were playing well together, so I sold up to try again and find out why

There is no point building a senior team if you can't figure how or what type of players play well together

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
That should say they weren't playing well together, not that they were. Stumped it as to why it didn't come together.

I currently rake in the cash as well as I've only got youth almost 75 million AUD

In hockey my side has won the last 3 AIHL titles, with only domestic players. 99% I developed myself. That is a sustainable business model, they can play until retirement and the team will always develop enough good youth players to replace the retirees

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[WCE]
President
Another cup coming to an end for me. 21-8 = 0-2 :/
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1044125210&tid=110476

scruttino wrote:

There is no point building a senior team if you can't figure how or what type of players play well together

Yeah, that is probably the trickiest part in this game. That, and avoid getting robbed by the simulator ;)

In my opinion it is not so much about which players plays well together, as it is about the ball distribution for each position. But at the end of the day though, the sim decides if you win or lose, more or less regardless of how well your players played. So the reward for reaching the very top of this game isn't particularly... rewarding. Under the current parameters it is a journey I am unwilling to go through again, that is for sure.

Ang: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
@Hanzinho - He scores in the 4th minute, and you try and try and try to score - his keeper is outstanding and he closes the game in the 88th minute. Isn't that typical in real life football? Happens every week in every country. It is frustrating but also why we keep playing. If you won every game where you are superior according to player values or amount of balls no one would play for very long.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[WCE]
President
gorgio wrote:
If you won every game where you are superior according to player values or amount of balls no one would play for very long.

You misunderstand completely. If you have the superior team, you actually win 5-0 or 10-0, regardless. The simulator is perfectly fair in those cases.

When I am discussing the lack of correlation between SOT and results, it is not about being superior according to player values or amount of balls. It is about edging out a significant SOT advantage against an opponent of equal strength (or close to your strength), mainly because you got the tactic right.

When I lose matches against play, it is always against teams that are within my range quality wise. I have a world class team, so for me this scenario then usually happens in WL or in the later stages of cup competitions, against other world class teams. For other teams it might happen quite frequently also in the domestic league and even at group stages of various cup competitions.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[RAF]
President
hanzinho wrote:
I have never heard that story. Please elaborate. Source?

What I have heard/read (numerous times): Marcus Majewski coded a platform for a game when he was a student at Blekinge Tekniska Högskola. He then paired up with Johan Christenson and his father Göran Christenson. ManagerZone was the result. I am not sure we can blame old and buggy code on China..

I have met with actionhero (originally from Norway) who started working for ManagerZone early on. He told the same story.


Hanz,
I may give an unreliable account of things happening in an era I personally wasn't in the game (I was part-time managing a team of a friend) but then again, it was Cattleyard who told this story, in the context of a similarly in-depth game analysis topic here, in MZ Talk. And who corroborated this story to me in a personal discussion relating to players maxing between balls...

It's not that the game wasn't created the way you mentioned it, in Sweden, but when they merged with China (this is undoubtedly a happening of ~2005), they took on their game and fused it into what they had. I am no technical guy but how I understood it, there were some codes they did not know what they did and others who, when merged, behaved in a manner they (at least at that time) had a very hard time understanding.

***

And whatever the story or the cause, for me personally the second problem of this game, after the RNG simulator (the lack of correlation between SOT and results, [...] edging out a significant SOT advantage against an opponent of equal strength (or close to your strength), mainly because you got the tactic right) is the player sistem:
- how they are generated: lack of balls, lack of awareness regarding position or potential, lack of correlation between given balls, etc.
- how they max
- hidden skills/potential.

And here's where I personally (don't know if you remember) had several discussions with Crew (Patrick and the rest) when we were in Linkoping and, as far as I understood it, they don't know what to change to adjust the system (probably this is why they could only work training speed and efficiency) because it's so deep into the system they can only build it from zero, which is again something they don't have the (financial) resources for.

PS:
The fact that at top level the results are so random is my personal reason for stacking up money and waiting for a better time to come back. If there's ever going to be such a time...

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
civilu wrote:
PS:
The fact that at top level the results are so random is my personal reason for stacking up money and waiting for a better time to come back. If there's ever going to be such a time...


This is good stuff.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[FLUSA]
President
civilu wrote:
The fact that at top level the results are so random is my personal reason for stacking up money and waiting for a better time to come back. If there's ever going to be such a time...


I been kind of doing the same for a long time, I train my youths & buy some young players on the cheap, compete at U18/U23, keep some for my seniors and don't splash money on the market. It's been ok, doing very well at U18, won some trophies at U23 without expending money and my seniors could be better but still won some trophies, including a Champions Cup which is something I wasn't expecting.

On the random note, I won the MLS last season, this season with the same exact team, players and tactics, I lost my first 2 games and I'm sitting at the bottom, my last game I had 24 shots on target vs 9 against and lost 3-2.... curiously, Casino Royale, the runner up from last season is on the same situation as me, no major changes on tactics or teams and despite that, he's 2nd to last with 2 games played, 2 losses.

Anyway, it's kind of sad but I don't see a point in complaining about the flaws of the SIM, crew knows we need a new SIM and I'm guessing that if we still don't have one, is because they don't have the means to deliver one.

Personally, considering we might not get a new SIM in the immediate future, I'd go back to the SIM from 2007, it was also random but I remember at least it was fun and less repetitive, weird goals happened, your strikers might run & dribble through defenders, if I remember correctly there was no back passing in front of an open net (one of the most frustrating things of this SIM) and a lot of etceteras.....

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
I agree 100% with hanzinho.

Returned after a long period and the SIM is still the same problem. I've seen a lot of players coming out, but I've never expected to see such a huge stampede of users.
Even if the SIM was changing for better, i'm sure managerzone will never return to the good old days. Sad.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Agree with most of the comments on here. Since i started playing this back in 2003 and again in 2011. This game has such a different feel now, all about spending money and the sim is terrible. The problem this game has is when games like fifa come out people lose time and interest! I do love this game and i hope some how it gets back to the good old days!

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
civilia, I don't buy that, everything can be figured out I think, including the way the system works and how it can be tweaked...

why it hasn't it's the topic of this forum

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
darkline wrote:
On the random note, I won the MLS last season, this season with the same exact team, players and tactics, I lost my first 2 games and I'm sitting at the bottom, my last game I had 24 shots on target vs 9 against and lost 3-2.... curiously, Casino Royale, the runner up from last season is on the same situation as me, no major changes on tactics or teams and despite that, he's 2nd to last with 2 games played, 2 losses.


Look at the bright side, you are not alone.

Change their diet and go organic kangaroo steak. It has many nutrients and vitamins that are essential for the well being of a team.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[RAF]
President
aemi wrote:
I don't buy that, everything can be figured out I think, including the way the system works and how it can be tweaked... why it hasn't it's the topic of this forum

I'm no tech guy but then again, it's obvious something is making any such works taboo - Crew knows player generation system is flawed and yet, the only thing they did in that is to make youths come with 7@ in form and happy. Doesn't that strike you as a scratch on a wall?

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[WCE]
President
civilu wrote:
Hanz,
I may give an unreliable account of things happening in an era I personally wasn't in the game (I was part-time managing a team of a friend) but then again, it was Cattleyard who told this story, in the context of a similarly in-depth game analysis topic here, in MZ Talk. And who corroborated this story to me in a personal discussion relating to players maxing between balls...

It's not that the game wasn't created the way you mentioned it, in Sweden, but when they merged with China (this is undoubtedly a happening of ~2005), they took on their game and fused it into what they had. I am no technical guy but how I understood it, there were some codes they did not know what they did and others who, when merged, behaved in a manner they (at least at that time) had a very hard time understanding.

I believe cattleyard was hired after China was added. He wasn't a coder, but a community guy. A bit like aikaik today and dolphin in the past.

I am not sure "merging" is the correct word to use. I believe Chinese teams was just imported into this side of the game. No code, just data. Initially there was a lot more teams imported than there was actual users, due to cheating occurring on a massive scale over there (who would have thunk). Some wealthy users (real money) had bought super players like Patrick Viera etc. That is a whole different can of worm though.

It can be very tricky to understand the code somebody else wrote, as everybody tend to have their own style of writing code. Then add to the fact that the code was written close to two decades ago. Understanding handwritten notes by a doctor on yellow note-it stickers is a walk in the park in comparison.

Patrick was somewhat of a control freak, so I am imagining he wanted full access and to totally understand the core elements in this game. It must have been a very frustrating experience for him.

I believe this game is dead in the water if the core of this game remains untouched, like it has for 16-17 years. Crew need to revamp MZ.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
hanzinho wrote:


I believe this game is dead in the water if the core of this game remains untouched, like it has for 16-17 years. Crew need to revamp MZ.


I'm so with you in it.
Having said that, it so seems weird that 'the patient is in intensive care' for that long but is still surviving somehow...

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[WCE]
President
It's called life support ;)

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[RAF]
President
Hanz,
Maybe I'm wrong and I got this the other way round of what it used to be...

But then again, I am sure they wanted, at some point in time, to work the player generation system and dropped it.

Btw, even the PR guy, Aik, keeps his trolling texts out of this thread. This is more saddening than the rest of what it is written here...

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[FLUSA]
President
aemi wrote:
Ok, if I get banned you started it hanzinho:

https://www.stillfront.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/SF-Q218-Report-Presentation_556rrsg_v39.pdf

Page 23: MZ listed as:
- no marketing investment
- profitability
- declining revenues.

Can MZ be turned around?


Why do you had to post this? Now I had to read it and buried between the pages I found something even more worrying than anything posted so far.... in May they launched an iOS and Android new Football Manager game :(

That doesn't look good at all, hope crew can find a way to turn things around or at least keep the game alive for years to come.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[MZS]
President
Although we (Crew) do not always comment suggestions & concerns, we do read them. Sometimes I believe that having you guys share your thoughts on the topic, without having a 'Crew member' like me to interrupt the conversation, brings us more valuable information.

I'm reading the comments here and believe that good suggestions and thoughts have been raised.

- Form should be more comprehensive and not as complicated for new users to understand. Today even experienced users have trouble to understand the impact of playing X amounts of matches - this should not be the case.

- The peak of top players could be earlier than today. I'm not sure about the ideal solution here, but it's definitely on our radar to overlook the experience part of the game to tweak and improve so that more players peak before turning 28-29.

- SOT vs goals = frustration if they don't correlate in majority of matches. Difficult to comprehend for new users and annoying for all users.

- Youth system has lot of potential and is according to many users (including me) the core of the game. Improve this feature will definitely bring more joy to the game as it has lots of potential.

I always encourage discussions that can bring us valuable thoughts and ideas, to take into account when we improve our beloved game.

Regards,
Robert

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
aikaik wrote:
Although we (Crew) do not always comment suggestions & concerns, we do read them. Sometimes I believe that having you guys share your thoughts on the topic, without having a 'Crew member' like me to interrupt the conversation, brings us more valuable information.


You can read our suggestions & concerns, but I would like to know your point of views.

Maybe you would consider scheduling some "Ask us anything" threads to raise the curtain every once in a while?

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
kolibre wrote:
Maybe you would consider scheduling some "Ask us anything" threads to raise the curtain every once in a while?


Because Crew are well aware that if they do that the questions will be along the lines of;

- Is there a plan to improve the simulator?
- What is the plan to get more users into the game?
- What are the plans to get the game fully functional as a mobile app?
- What investment are you getting from the parent company, are they really just taking a final revenue stream?

You don't do a Ask Me Anything, when you know you can't give satisfactory answers to pertinent questions.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
@mosmosmos It does feel that way. I don't know...

If they have issues that they don't know how to solve, then ask for help.

I'd be interested to contribute if they decide to open up the source code.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
The game will never revive. How many kids joined this game this year ? A world with no newborns is going to disappear.
I play this game only as an old vice; play is too much said.. just arrange some friendlies 1-2 times a week and 1-2 times a year read the forum.
When they introduce deterioration I stop caring about the team; you train a player 3 real years, are happy with it around half a year, then, in a few weeks, he became almost useless (from 9 speed and 7 stamina to 7 speed and 5 stamina). It's very disappointing.
The crew just invent more ways of milking paying users, because they are addicted; no marketing, no real game development; and, to be honest, a 17 years phone/car/website is not going to be interesting for young people, only for old nostalgics.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
mosmosmos wrote:
You don't do a Ask Me Anything, when you know you can't give satisfactory answers to pertinent questions.


Open the thread bud. If they don't answer, at least it's a good therapy, we get it off our chest. I am still bugged that years later, thunder couldn't come with that kanga joke he promised. How long does it take to "work on it"?

darkline wrote:
Why do you had to post this? Now I had to read it and buried between the pages I found something even more worrying than anything posted so far.... in May they launched an iOS and Android new Football Manager game :(


My sincere apologies, it's the last time I post something relevant, I should stick with I know to do best... I was a bit hammered down on fermented maple syrup.

Also good find, it basically means, that MZ is not portable to android and IOs, imho.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[RAF]
President
darkline wrote:
in May they launched an iOS and Android new Football Manager game :(


This is it? https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.digamore.footballempire&hl=en
Really, this is why they gave up on MZ? :O

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Civilu, don't confuse Stillfront with Powerchallenge. We have not created any other games and our focus, since PS was cancelled, has been 100% on ManagerZone. That game you linked is made by another company within the Stillfront group of games (which includes lots of companies).

Please don't start false rumors based on guesses and hunches. MZ is ticking along like it always has, it's has been around for 17 years and there is absolutely nothing suggesting there won't be another 17 years. We are continuously adding new things, which the change log shows (although I haven't updated it for a while, that is my fault).

I would also like to point out that we have spent both time and resources on marketing over the last 12 months and have seen a surge in registrations because of it. We are constantly exploring new ways to make MZ more visible on the web and elsewhere.
Edited: 26-10-2018 16:49
Total edits: 1

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
powdersnow wrote:
Please don't start false rumors based on guesses and hunches.

That's a good reason to do those "Ask us anything" threads ;)

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
I hate to say it, actually I don't hate it at all, but civilia has just been OWNED. Lol.

While I can see that his question was a bit ambiguous and had to be addressed, and personally I would not have posted the link which I didn't (sic). I like how discreet and yet telling darkline was about it. However, I think he is a decent guy (civilia), and he probably meant "They" as in stillfront, not PC or the crew as we know you, who are doing a decent job considering the circumstances.

At least now you guys understand why civilia and I never seem to get along. lol.

It rather looks like the Norwegians have always something to complain about the Swedish. This time is the SOT. I note that Hanz started playing in the same year as me, and I just remembered that we knew through out the years, that the statistics are never accurate and to now go by then, at some point I believe even passing in a certain area was considered a SOT. So while Henz has all the right to be frustrated especially that he want's to beat you guys at your own game, we the savage managers knew better, don't trust the statistics. Looks like that is still the case.

When it comes to us vs Crew, there may be a lack of communication involved. While I note that powdersnow talks thru the change log, and aik apparently reads every silly joke on the forum, perhaps more interaction from crew would be beneficial. A comment here and there, a ban and fine only there, not here... would help in the grand scheme. Of course, don't start banning and fining, you've got people doing that for free, lol.
It also humanizes you as crew, so while there will always be critics at least they might not be as pointy.

I also remember that thunder promised that he will issue regular updates on where the game is going and will keep the community up to date, I think that goal is somewhat behind atm. He also did not post his favourite kangaroo joke as he promised.

powdersnow wrote:
I would also like to point out that we have spent both time and resources on marketing over the last 12 months and have seen a surge in registrations because of it. We are constantly exploring new ways to make MZ more visible on the web and elsewhere.


I have noticed an increase in users lately, more than before, so I hope you guys have the ability to track them and see how long they will stick around and what else can be improved from the perspective. The game is quite complex for a new user.

I am reading too much into "MZ more visible ... elsewhere", but I am hopefully that means native apps for IOs and Android. Might be challenging, considering how old the core code might be, plus the fees that Google and Apple & Banana will take from the CM which might not help that much the company.

Might be simplistic this opinion, bu in my view, community and rivalries help new users stick around and learn the game. I don't have any suggestions on how to go about that, but maybe the other great minds around here could come up with new suggestions. I do remember that when I first started, there was always some kind of drama on the forums, which kept you interested, and the beating the crap out of my high school colleagues and making a few more rivals on the way helped a lot. The game is not that interesting if you are beating inactive teams or just a team name. There has to be some drama or civil (no relation to civilia) interaction for most people I think.

This all could have been said in a few sentences, but I just wanted to waste your time.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
oh my sim, look at the size of that post... I feel for those that will take the time to read it, hopefully they notice the username first and skip it.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
aemi wrote:

I have noticed an increase in users lately, more than before, so I hope you guys have the ability to track them and see how long they will stick around and what else can be improved from the perspective. The game is quite complex for a new user.


Not only more users, but things like intro packages and the new beginners hub has helped conversion, while ManagerZone has always been a golden standard for long-term retention, we are world beaters when it comes to that. Overall, we're happy with how things are going. Which makes a thread like this make even more bizarre.

As for the actual details surrounding the game, there is plenty of great ideas in this thread, which aikaik touched on above, so it is not all bad. It is a matter of priorities, as always, weighing benefits versus workload and come up with a roadmap that you think is leading you someplace nice. Many have delivered good ideas, but words like "downfall" or "they gave up on MZ", really makes you wonder.

Sure, some drama is great to liven up the atmosphere, which is why we let threads like this exist. But wacky, unfounded speculation about the "doom" of MZ, is always a bad thing. Nothing good can come from it, ever, it is just plain sabotage. You can't help wonder what motives people have to act like that. Makes me a bit angry actually.

Re: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
@Power

What is really being discussed is what is publicly available from Stillfront itself. Which is the fact that MZ is presented as a legacy game which is running its tail with no outside investment.

The resource which I am seeing, and which you allude to, from my understanding is that of which exists within the staff of the company anyway, as opposed to additional resource provided from outside. So there is still the resource for marketing, and seemingly upgrading the 3D.

3 crew posts now though, all referring to good ideas, it has not gone unnoticed that the simulator is conspicuous by its absence. I'm taking from this that there is no-one in the company who is able to do this, and there is no external resource to hire someone who can.

There are a lot of hygiene things which can be done to improve the experience as have been raised, and you have acknowledged, but without a simulator which remotely represents football.

Sv: MZ - The downfall

Badge image
Badge image
[TDF]
President
@Powdersnow:

A major concern is that most new users register, check out the game, and never return to MZ. Thats leaves plenty of «ghost teams» and many potential users get lost. Once in a while I check the "Last assigned teams" tab for my country under the world map page, and I guess 95 % of the new teams don't even arrange their first friendly game. On the fixtures page, all you can see is "[Pool] Newbie Senior - Daily". Not that the Newbie FL i something bad (I really enjoyed it), but it's obvious that the new users find it difficult to start playing MZ. Then we have to ask why. Well, Idk why. I played it for 6 years before my comeback a year ago, so to me everything were still intuitive. My first thought is that the manual and beginner's guide are less useful than they're intended to be. I guess people aren't interested in reading long manuals.

powdersnow wrote:

I would also like to point out that we have spent both time and resources on marketing over the last 12 months and have seen a surge in registrations because of it. We are constantly exploring new ways to make MZ more visible on the web and elsewhere.


Do you mind if I ask you where and how you've spent time and resources on marketing? I'm just wondering, because I haven't seen it anywhere :(
Previous
Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Next