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29-03-2024 12:59
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Season 89 · Week 13 · Day 88
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Football » English » ManagerZone talk

MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
President
I have always been an advocate for a strong correlation between SOT (shots on target) and result. The logic behind this is that users have a much easier time understanding and accepting a loss if the opponent created more chances. You don't want the game to look like a spreadsheet, so having some results against play is both acceptable and needed in my opinion. An occasional 15-10 = 1-2 is ok. However, 35-5 = 0-0 is not needed. Neither is 18-7 = 5-5(!) or 21-1 = 0-1. Such results make users rage-quit in despair. It shouldn't even happen once in a thousand.

"Apple is like a ship with a hole in the bottom, leaking water and my job is to get the shop pointed in the right direction". This was said by Gil Amelio as he was about to be thrown in favor of Steve Jobs. This quote sticks to my mind when I think of the current development of ManagerZone.

ManagerZone has lost +90% of its userbase during the last 10 years or so. The recent 17th Anniversary Cup had a participation of 8 221, even though it was free to non-CMs. MZ Anniversary Cup 2008 had a participation of 144 637. Of course, a large portion of the 144k of users that signed up for the cup back then, were non-paying users. It does however show how unpopular the game has become. Lets use an optimistic estimation and say that the game now has 15k active users (probably less), and that half of the userbase missed out on the recent free cup. So, 15 000 people in the world are playing ManagerZone today. Is it just in my head, or does this number sound ridiculously low? Nowadays, everybody have Internet. Even a mediocre blog in Norway generates more visits per day than 15k.

I have never understood why certain aspects/features exist in the game today. The form-system for one. You'd be surprised how difficult this is for a new user to understand. And it is also difficult to explain it to them. I have a friend who quit this game years ago because he wasn't able to maintain a good form. A simple solution would have been for Crew to remove the chance of players to become tired.
Another user quit this game when both his strikers broke a leg in the same match. We are talking about +40 day injuries.

If a feature makes 0,1% of the users quit the game, then it should be removed. The leakage has to be fixed! I doubt anybody will quit the game because there aren't enough long-term injuries, or because it has become too easy to manage the form.

Then there is the way deterioration was implemented. You fail to understand your users when you remove balls from their beloved players. Yes, it is a small small fraction of the hole ball, but visually it is 1 ball. Look at the image below for a smoother way of implementing deterioration. I spent 1 calorie coming up with this idea, and it is from the very top of my head. A simple icon that shows how far the deterioration process has come. And voila, we can still compare the skills of players from various era.



This player is fully deteriorated (10 out of 10). As a 32 year old, this icon would be approximately 5 out of 10.

Back to the simulator. Did you know that you can win SOT (shots on target) in 91% of the matches in the top-division of WL, and still get relegated? I won SOT in 20 out of 22 matches, but in 12 of the 20 matches I was robbed. Ergo, in 60%(!) of the matches where I won the SOT, I either lost or drew the game.



In Champions Cup I was knocked out despite winning SOT 18-10. The team who beat me went all the way to the final, where they lost against play. Last season ALL 3 Elite cup-finals went against play. Both in Top Teams Cup, Cup Winners Cup and Champions Cup, the team that had the fewest shots on target won the game. The team that got robbed in Top Teams Cup sold out (Ultra Copos). I was thinking of the same (I was the one who lost the Cup Winners Cup). In U18 NE I managed to draw against the bottom team, despite winning SOT 18-7. The result was 5-5! My 8 ball GK (best I have had in years) with great partials, conceded 5 out of 7 shots.

5 hours ago I lost the final of the Fitness Cup S67 against play aswell. It is interesting, but I doubt I have lost SOT in more than a handful of games this entire season, counting official games. It happened once in the league, once in Victory Cup 2018 (grand final).

Then there is U21 Paraguay. Here there was somewhat poetic justice that they knocked out Sweden. Simulator is a bi-product of Swedish comm... socialism. Points for everybody. An extension of "trophies for everybody" that was implemented a few seasons ago. It seems the current Crew forget that this is a game. You won all your games in 5th division? Sure, here you go, special Elite achievement for you.



If Crew wants less users as a way of reducing work load for their servers and hamsters, then I totally understand why they have created such an unfair simulator. I would however be more than a little bit concerned if I was an investor. I have played a heck of a lot of football manager games, and I have never come close to a match-engine where you can get relegated despite winning SOT in 91% of the games.

Recently there was a significant bump in the cost of PT. You probably have seen a lot of teams that has the username "NO MORE PT FOR MZ". Often written in Spanish. I totally understand the move by Crew, because the expenses remain the same. So when income is reduced as a result of their incompetence and lack of understanding this game, then those few souls who remain in this game has to pay way more to keep this sinking ship heading somewhere, anywhere. After all it is better to sink near the bottom of a coral reef than at 1000 meter depths where your only companions will be jelly fish.

Speaking of 3D. One year, almost to this day, a Crew member wrote the following:
"It's a matter of where we want to prioritize our time and effort. Back in 2000-2010 a 3D was a pretty cool thing for a management game to have, but these days people care less about the glossy surface and more about the depth of content. Developing a state-of-the-art 3D would basically exhaust all our available resources, in order to achieve something that we don't actually think the game really needs."

Fast forward a few months, and Crew could inform the community that all available resources was being exhausted in order to create something that the game didn't really need. 3D in all its glory is up and running again, to the awe of all the investors and 10 managers who watch their games in 3D.



I actually had to limit myself, because there probably is a limit to the amount of text in a post. I had a lot to say about the ultra-boring youth system, the lack of staff, facility, statistics, and how the game feels near identical to the game I started playing in 2003.
Edited: 03-02-2019 05:31
Total edits: 2
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Re: MZ - The downfall

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hanzinho wrote:
Another WL (S68.2) has been concluded.

If you created 4 or more SOT than the opponent, then there was a 45,45% chance you won the game and a 54,55% chance it would end with a draw or with a defeat. Not much of a reward for getting the tactic correct.

If you dominated the game (10 or more SOT than opponent), you had a 66,67% chance of winning the game (18 vs 9). That is better than in S68.1, where it was almost dead even (12 vs 11). Still, 66,67% is way too low in my opinion. I would like to see this number well into the 90's.

The actual table:




If anything less than an advantage of 4 SOT is a draw, you get this table:



So yet again, the winner of WL TD isn't the team that performed best. It is just the team that was the most lucky. Bulldog got 13 victories, despite winning SOT only 8 times.


Here are some of my favorite results from S68.2 WL TD:
Good luck explaining these with short passing being inefficient..











Notice how the results are defined by the goalkeepers. That 9-0 defeat is utterly absurd. Same team won another game 6-2 despite only having 8 SOT..

In S68.3 I will be present in the top division again.
I am not looking particularly forward to that... ;)


Guy,you are really a good manager and also a glumbler;) i dont want to see you sell everything soon.
Well, welcome back to WTL, good luck next edition.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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What I would like to see in a "football manager" (and hockey too!) is more realism.

I don't like to see that majority of top teams have only 11 - 13 players that they use and almost all are 28+ years old. Peak of skills is reached already, 9-10 experience skill is kept all season long.

I know this will sound controversial to many, but what I'd like to see is:
1. complete re-work of Form
2. more injuries (including GK)

Why?
1. Right now it's too easy to keep all players on 9+ form. Just don't overplay them in friendlies. It's plain stupid. Real players don't keep peak form all the time. Let players get tired more often so they either need to be put on bench, or they will have to play with lower form, performing worse.
There should be a difference in how a player with 3@,6@ and 9@ form performs on the pich. Form should be something that makes a difference.

2. You will need a bigger roster. You will have to spend more cash, or just get worse players on your bench and be forced to use them. This means you will actually need to adjust your tactics more often and finally start making those "managerial" decisions


As for the SIM changes, from what I have read so far in this thread, SOT is misguiding, because "one on one" situations don't convert into goals as often as they probably should, among other issues.
It's also frustrating for me, to see that my 10/10/10/9 striker gets the ball in the middle of the pitch, runs almost in a straight line past opponents defenders who can't tackle him and then one he's one on one, he shoots right into the GK.

I think it'd be good if the number of one on ones was reduced somehow, but the conversion of shots into goals for such situations would be higher, as long as you have a good striker, of course.


PS. That change in players' form should be reflected in National Teams as well. Don't make all NT players 10@ form by default. Let them play with their current form.

Sv: MZ - The downfall

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[TDF]
President
@lebanon21:
I have to say that I disagree with you. Not all users are so dedicated to this game as a few of us are. Only a minority of the players actually change formations and do tactical tweaks. Just look at various cups. Most people tend to use their default tactics in all games. And I have to repeat, I'm not talking about us, but the casual MZ user. What we need to do is to make the casual keep playing this game, and then I don't think making a need for doing more tactical tweaks will help at all.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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manekaster wrote:
@lebanon21:
I have to say that I disagree with you. Not all users are so dedicated to this game as a few of us are. Only a minority of the players actually change formations and do tactical tweaks. Just look at various cups. Most people tend to use their default tactics in all games. And I have to repeat, I'm not talking about us, but the casual MZ user. What we need to do is to make the casual keep playing this game, and then I don't think making a need for doing more tactical tweaks will help at all.


You are right that not all are so dedicated to change tactics and make adjustments.

But I think it's a fair assumption to say, that if you put effort, you get the results. So those who don't change tactics and don't care, shouldn't be surprised or upset by the fact that they are falling behind.

I think it's unfair right now, that it's so easy to keep 9 form and that all you have to do, pretty much, is to get 11 old players, cause they have a lot of skill and are relatively cheap. Then you don't do much for the whole season.

My point is, it's a managerial game, we should be presented with enough variables, to be able to take many different paths that give good results, plus some variability. But not the type of SIM variability that everyone is complaining about. Rather at the level of player / team management. Changes in form. More injuries. So that you need to invest your resources (team money mostly) into a wider roster of players. Decide if you want 11 superstars, or maybe just 7 superstars and 8 less talented players, for the same amount of money, but to have squad depth in case of injuries.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
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iloveu wrote:
Guy,you are really a good manager and also a glumbler;) i dont want to see you sell everything soon.
Well, welcome back to WTL, good luck next edition.

Thank you, but thats the thing, I don't want luck for me or anybody else ;)
I see you got simmed badly today, so the WL trend continues. 17-6 = 2-3.

@lebanon21
I think its a bad idea to make form random, since there is enough random in the game already. I have always wanted to remove the form attribute, because it is so easy to manage for experienced managers, yet so difficult for new managers. Ergo it doesn't add anything to this game except frustration for new managers.

And from a logical viewpoint it doesn't make any sense that a player goes from 9 to 0 balls in form by playing too few matches. I mean, he is still training every day.. In its current format, form should really have been named "match fitness".

Another illogical aspect is that players become tired from playing +8 matches of a specific format (league + friendlies), yet can play 10 000 matches of other formats. Confusing for new users. A quick fix would be to remove the chance for players to become "Tired - Need to rest".

Adding more injuries is also a bad idea in my opinion. It doesn't add anything but frustration. And the more games you play (thus the more you contribute to MZ/PC AB financially), the more you are hit with injuries. How about instead sending an email to all paying users kindly asking them to stop playing this game instead? ;)

At youth level we are kinda having it like you are suggesting. There are LOTS of suspensions there, especially if you play with wings (illogical, sure). In some games, I have 3 youths suspended. Thus, I have to use the bench which consists of 16 year olds. Occasionally I have to use my reserve keeper as a defensive midfielder. Does this make the game more interesting and fun? No, not for me. It is a complete pain in the rectum. It makes me want to play this game less, as a result. It feels like a drag when I have to put aside 10-20 minutes every evening, setting up alternative tactics for the following day.

Not to mention that I have to find an available tactic slot in order to make the necessary adjustments, which is a problem, since I use all 20 tactic slots already. Today I am even throwing a U18 game (two suspensions) because its "only" a prized cup (U18 World Tour Cup).

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
President


Personally, and this might come as a shock, I'd say Simulator..
But as bad as it is, and boy is it garbage, B, C and D isn't far off.

Two key matches so far today:

21-5 = 1-1 (U18 NE)
24-6 = 1-1 (WL) (here we go again..) :D

Re: MZ - The downfall

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slightly off topic (or not)

similar strange things can occur in MZ hockey too

https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=156036531

Match Facts JM ART
Goals 1 2
Shots 20 6
Faceoffs Won 20 2
Faceoff Percent 91% 9%
Saves 4 17
Number of Penalties 1 0

The team that won, doesn't even play friendlies to keep his players' form up

All hail the keeper RNG...NOT!
:|

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
President
Discussing hockey simulator is very relevant to this thread, as it kinda shows the mentality of Crew. It isn't a fluke that every simulator they have ever created, has a severe lack of correlation between SOT and result. They code this intentionally, probably because they think it is the right thing to do. I just wish they knew it wasn't.

I am glad I am not playing MZ hockey actively, as I can barely survive one horrendous simulator. Two would have killed me off, for sure.

I have days where like 5 out of 6 key matches goes severely against play. Today it was 3 out of 3. All ending 1-1. Add hockey into the equation aswell, and it would be really "fun" :D

21-5 = 1-1 (U18 NE)
24-6 = 1-1 (WL)
5-10 = 1-1 (U18 WL)

Re: MZ - The downfall

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Maaaannnnn
Did I pick a depressing topic to walk into the forum for the first time in I don't even know how long to read through

Shameless plug
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tUSx8ncyRHY

Whatever happened to power racing that turned out to be a money pit. Or power American football I think I have a short video clip of that somewhere....

There was a window I really truly believed in powersoccer. That mouse idea could have drastically altered soccer games, I always imagined using a mouse to chain commands like an RTS was the future. Selecting your backline with a hot key moving them all in unison. I don't care what people say there was potential.

Head2head I think I was literally the only person playing it. Actually a different video on my channel I'm playing overthetop3. I believed in that too. Imagine if you had access to your national teams set of players, have the chance for new users to manage the top players. Real time strategy changes there has to be a market for that...

The sim well... I almost made parody videos about the super keepers. I think it's most frustrating when you see stuff you don't understand. So keep it as simple as possible. Long balls = no back passing guaranteed for instance.

I actually think going from 10 balls to 20 balls (current values x2) would help immensely. More scope to differentiate players with (bigger maxing spread), losing a ball doesn't seem as big a deal, more frequent ball gains etc.

Anyway out of touch Alzheimer ramble over

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
President
I believe tosspot also talked warm about Head2Head. So it was quite popular with the wast majority of Aussies ;) I tried it, but it wasn't my cup of tea. I prefer taking my sweet time. Head2Head was basically turn-based strategy, but with a time limitation that sort of nullified the advantages/concept of turn-based strategy. Strange concept that was never likely to be a success among the very casual MZ Managers. Hence why I gave Patrick a very hard time over it. I found it absurd that he would devote time to that mini-game, when the main-game had so many issues.

Regarding additional sports. Back when it was being considered, it made a lot more sense to expand into new territories than it does currently. That said, MZ Hockey never did as well as they expected. Part of the reason behind that game was to expand into Northern America. Users that signed up from Canada/USA would then be drawn into playing the green version of the game aswell as the blue. I think the lack of success Crew experienced with MZ Hockey made them think twice about MZ Formula 1 and other sports.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
President
dagriggstar wrote:
I actually think going from 10 balls to 20 balls (current values x2) would help immensely. More scope to differentiate players with (bigger maxing spread), losing a ball doesn't seem as big a deal, more frequent ball gains etc. /quote]
I agree 0-20 would be better. Approximately twice as good as how it is currently.

I have several times proposed 0-100. But 0-20 is probably easier to implement, or atleast less of a dramatic change for users. Thus easier for us to adapt.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
President
dagriggstar wrote:
I actually think going from 10 balls to 20 balls (current values x2) would help immensely. More scope to differentiate players with (bigger maxing spread), losing a ball doesn't seem as big a deal, more frequent ball gains etc.

I agree 0-20 would be better. Approximately twice as good as how it is currently.

I have several times proposed 0-100. But 0-20 is probably easier to implement, or atleast less of a dramatic change for users. Thus easier for us to adapt.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
President
Another WL (S68.3) has been concluded.

If you created 4 or more SOT than the opponent, there was a 45,45% chance you won the game and a 54,55% chance it would end with a draw or with a defeat. This was identical to S68.2.

However, if you dominated the game (10 or more SOT than opponent), you had a 83,33% chance of winning the game (25 wins out of 30 games). In S68.2 this number was 66,67, and in S68.1 it was around 50%. We are certainly seeing a positive trend here. The question is which one was the deviation. I fear the abnormality here was the 83%, and I doubt I will experience this in the next WL series. Unfortunately!

My own record was 7-2-0 in the 9 games I dominated, which I am happy with under the current regime.

The actual table:




If anything less than an advantage of 4 SOT is a draw, you get this table:



Luckily for me, the simulator was fair in S68.3. I got exactly as many points as I deserved. I lost some points against play, but also had a couple of games where I got more than I deserved.

My team was less dominant than last time I was in the top division, but instead of being relegated, I won it! So the conclusion is that if you dominate the WL Top Division, it could end with both gold or relegation, depending on the "mood" of the simulator. Because my team is more or less identical to the one that got relegated.. A few more balls in Set Plays pretty much.

Interesting that my weak team (according to some non-CM members) won the World League, together with a few other big titles (Endurance, Backyard Challenge, Midweek Madness ++) :D

Some additional stats:
If equal or less than 3 SOT advantage is a draw, then the difference between me and SuRpRiSe would be even bigger (56 vs. 42 pts). But no matter which strictness in correlation between SOT and result (10, 4, 3 or 0) WZG Sandomierz deserved to end on the top half of the table. Instead they got relegated, and by a large margin. Only my team dominated more games then they did (9 vs 4). WZG should have swapped places with Quilachanquil. Except for that deviation, the table was quite fair for once.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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lebanon21 wrote:
You are right that not all are so dedicated to change tactics and make adjustments.

But I think it's a fair assumption to say, that if you put effort, you get the results. So those who don't change tactics and don't care, shouldn't be surprised or upset by the fact that they are falling behind.

I think it's unfair right now, that it's so easy to keep 9 form and that all you have to do, pretty much, is to get 11 old players, cause they have a lot of skill and are relatively cheap. Then you don't do much for the whole season.

My point is, it's a managerial game, we should be presented with enough variables, to be able to take many different paths that give good results, plus some variability. But not the type of SIM variability that everyone is complaining about. Rather at the level of player / team management. Changes in form. More injuries. So that you need to invest your resources (team money mostly) into a wider roster of players. Decide if you want 11 superstars, or maybe just 7 superstars and 8 less talented players, for the same amount of money, but to have squad depth in case of injuries.


My opinion is same as yours. I always say that it's not fair that you spend time, make tactics, log in a lot, and then there is a manager who has 33 years old players on average 6/6 or 7/7 motor skills and beat you like a kid while you have nice team building up, 9/8 on motor skills and just because they are 25-26 they will loose to the +30 ones as experience in this game is more important than main skills.

Agree with the ''activity" too, one tactic, old players, log in for few minutes a day to check everything is fine and you are sorted.

Even the tours are crazy, it should be 18 friendlies for all to achieve tour, but there is a very easy way via friendly leagues, so many managers have to do nothing to achieve tour, while others have to use 2 squads to complet it, spend time on forum to look for friendlies for each day etc, being carefull to not overplayed players etc.

I know people these days have no time, but if you don't have a time just don't play this game, simple is that, what fun can you get by doing nothing and logging in for a minute just to have a quick check up.

Getting things easy and simple is not always the best, this is a manager game but you don't need to show a lot of managers skills and still be great. Even the coaches contracts extensions can be made automaticly by clicking a button, so this cuts another fun of negotiating with the coach again, or maybe letting him go and look for a new one. Form package another thing, nice simple thing to pay to get the instant form boost hah, so a "manager" don't need to think to get his player back to shape. I could find more examples of this game going too simple too easy too lazy. I remember once when I won the MZ 15th Anniversary cup i didn't even know i won it until my friend texted me on guestbook with congrats after the final, and I know my team was very good back then, but still managed to beat all Irish and UK managers with one tactic while others tried their best.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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lukaszsz182 wrote:
.. , but still managed to beat all Irish and UK managers with one tactic while others tried their best.


Maybe managers should try to find their "one tactic" and "second tactic", which is best for their players, instead to try to counter all other?

Re: MZ - The downfall

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lukaszsz182 wrote:
My opinion is same as yours. I always say that it's not fair that you spend time, make tactics, log in a lot, and then there is a manager who has 33 years old players on average 6/6 or 7/7 motor skills and beat you like a kid while you have nice team building up, 9/8 on motor skills and just because they are 25-26 they will loose to the +30 ones as experience in this game is more important than main skills.

Agree with the ''activity" too, one tactic, old players, log in for few minutes a day to check everything is fine and you are sorted.

Even the tours are crazy, it should be 18 friendlies for all to achieve tour, but there is a very easy way via friendly leagues, so many managers have to do nothing to achieve tour, while others have to use 2 squads to complet it, spend time on forum to look for friendlies for each day etc, being carefull to not overplayed players etc.

I know people these days have no time, but if you don't have a time just don't play this game, simple is that, what fun can you get by doing nothing and logging in for a minute just to have a quick check up.

Getting things easy and simple is not always the best, this is a manager game but you don't need to show a lot of managers skills and still be great. Even the coaches contracts extensions can be made automaticly by clicking a button, so this cuts another fun of negotiating with the coach again, or maybe letting him go and look for a new one. Form package another thing, nice simple thing to pay to get the instant form boost hah, so a "manager" don't need to think to get his player back to shape. I could find more examples of this game going too simple too easy too lazy. I remember once when I won the MZ 15th Anniversary cup i didn't even know i won it until my friend texted me on guestbook with congrats after the final, and I know my team was very good back then, but still managed to beat all Irish and UK managers with one tactic while others tried their best.


Vou got a really good point but i think the 2 points that are f**ing the game is the SIM and the awful marketing. But come on guys, it is a old game, with old ideas, old stuffs. Now disturbing changed and the game did not followed the age. I tryied to show this week the game for 3 brazilian friends and they said "What? Not necessary full backs and they don't play as a real life?". And they are absolutely right. I moved to Ireland in last year but when i was playing my last 2 seasons we lost A LOADS OF players (we had fully 8 divisions before). I don't think the game is too easier than before (a little bit for sure) but what can we do? MZ can fight with PES? FIFA? FIFA Manager?

Re: MZ - The downfall

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Agree 100%, nothing eye catching really. Remember when I showed this game to my friends and brother not even one stayed longer than a month. Most managers play this game because we play it for a long time (me since 2009). Not too many new users, if there are they leave the game quickly, Ireland is a good example, can see teams joining and then no activity at all.

In my opinion there is too many features for Club Members ,I know it;s money for crew but there is to much difference between regular user and CM. If new manager joins he sees this "for club members only" everywhere. every second click is connected to tokens or CM.

I don't want to complain but CM is not even enough now, you need to spend even more money. Remember in 2009 when I joined there was maybe 10 times less club members, game was growing, each much was worth watching even friendlies, waited days to watch the match in full 3d against my friend and now? 10 games a day, could be more if people pay for youth leagues, friendly leagues, private cups etc.

There is too many competition online, and most of the games you can play free equally with the people that pay, here in MZ if you won't pay you won't achieve nothing. without token you can only play local dead leagues and friendlies.

Even with CM you will still be behind, because of the finance from world leagues and youth leagues. I play football and hockey too, have to pay for both club membership so even i would easily afford to pay for youth and world leagues for both sports i wont, why? spending too much money for the online clicker game is not fun at all, so at least i am challenged a bit without this extra finance in the game.

The downfall is bad, in Poland we have clan leagues based on Friday friendlies, this is my 3rd clan now, 2 previous ones died because slowly every couple of weeks/months some users were leaving the game, simply there was no managers to keep it going. My current clan lost about 15 managers since I joined, has to be something, people wouldn't leave the game if it was great...

Talking about fifa haha, at least you won;t be simmed there so fifa is better.H

Re: MZ - The downfall

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All sad and worring but what about the SOT? Ain't that a buummer, luka? And the crew, don't get me started on the crew, amirite?

Let's not lose track here of the real issue at hand.

/s

Re: MZ - The downfall

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I'm not playing MZ for the graphics

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[TDF]
President
aldebaran wrote:
I'm not playing MZ for the graphics


+1.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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aldebaran wrote:
I'm not playing MZ for the graphics


No one buddy. The question is how old this SIM is. We play this game because it's fun for us and we know everything about it, we don't care about graphics and because we play this game for a long time, when the game was "new era". We need to look for the new gen and what they care. If we don't find a way to stuck the new players here, the game will die.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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lukaszsz182 wrote:
Agree 100%, nothing eye catching really. Remember when I showed this game to my friends and brother not even one stayed longer than a month. Most managers play this game because we play it for a long time (me since 2009). Not too many new users, if there are they leave the game quickly, Ireland is a good example, can see teams joining and then no activity at all.

In my opinion there is too many features for Club Members ,I know it;s money for crew but there is to much difference between regular user and CM. If new manager joins he sees this "for club members only" everywhere. every second click is connected to tokens or CM.

I don't want to complain but CM is not even enough now, you need to spend even more money. Remember in 2009 when I joined there was maybe 10 times less club members, game was growing, each much was worth watching even friendlies, waited days to watch the match in full 3d against my friend and now? 10 games a day, could be more if people pay for youth leagues, friendly leagues, private cups etc.

There is too many competition online, and most of the games you can play free equally with the people that pay, here in MZ if you won't pay you won't achieve nothing. without token you can only play local dead leagues and friendlies.

Even with CM you will still be behind, because of the finance from world leagues and youth leagues. I play football and hockey too, have to pay for both club membership so even i would easily afford to pay for youth and world leagues for both sports i wont, why? spending too much money for the online clicker game is not fun at all, so at least i am challenged a bit without this extra finance in the game.

The downfall is bad, in Poland we have clan leagues based on Friday friendlies, this is my 3rd clan now, 2 previous ones died because slowly every couple of weeks/months some users were leaving the game, simply there was no managers to keep it going. My current clan lost about 15 managers since I joined, has to be something, people wouldn't leave the game if it was great...

Talking about fifa haha, at least you won;t be simmed there so fifa is better.H


100% agree as well buddy. In add: all irish players here are immigrants? The really don't care about football lol haha

Re: MZ - The downfall

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aldebaran wrote:
I'm not playing MZ for the graphics


Me neither.

manekaster wrote:
+1.


+2.

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lufer wrote:
100% agree as well buddy. In add: all irish players here are immigrants? The really don't care about football lol haha


Haha, since 10 seasons there is always a Polish champion every season in IE premier league (im lucky to won it 5 times ;), last time the Irish manager won it was in S59 Shamrock Rovers.

Same goes for NC etc, no Irish people interested. But remember when I joined the game in 2009 then it was plenty of Irish lads playing, then they slowly stopped playing like everyone.

We have 10 Polish teams in the Premier League at the moment if not 11.

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About "hi-jacking" the nationalities.. I have comment, too.

It is not to meant to be racist.. But lets make example:

10 Estonians come to Irish league, in Managerzone game and they all have teams named in weird language (for Irish people) and they win/dominate many seasons..

Then Irish people lose the heart for game.

There should be respect for a country under what flag managers play the game. If don't understand the Irish, then at least name the club to English or to town/city/village the manager lives in.

I understand that would feel very weird to join MZ and half teams in league wear Estonian names.



1. MKS -- why MKS? FC maybe?
2. Galaktikos is so-so. Sounds not Irish
3. Not Irish name
4. Not Irish name
5. Not Irish name
6. OK
7. Not Irish name
8. Not Irish name
9. Not Irish name
10. OK
11. OK
12. so-so

Thanks for pointing out the issue.

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[TDF]
President
Gotta agree with you, Mr. book store. I would have reacted the same way with Estonian, German, Turkish and Chinese team names, so this is not just because the names are Polish, although I see more Polish names in non-Polish leagues than team names from other languages. English would have been fine, as all Norwegians also speak and understand English. Same goes for Swedish and Danish team names.

Regarding the team names you're mentioning I think 1948 MKS is okay. Still better than MKS Pogoń Szczecin, which is the full name of the club. Galaktikos and Canarinhos as well. I, as a Norwegian, shouldn't be restricted to name my club a Norwegian team name only. Just to make it clear: Although my team name is Portuguese and a pun on a Portuguese explorer and a Brazilian club, it doesn't mean that I speak that language.

If you guys are [nationality A] living in [country B], well then I don't have any concerns regarding competing in the league system in [country B], but I wouldn't like if someone from [country X] hijacked e.g. the Norwegian league.

I once played in a division called PIAST CHRZĄSZCZYŻEWOSZYCE. Just try to pronounce the name… Eventually I Googled it and found out that Chrząszczyżewoszyce is a fictional city in a movie, which actually made it a bit funny.

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[TDF]
President
But to be honest, there are problems way more worth discussing than this one. A small digression there.

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That is not small problem, actually..

I personally don't understand why people switch their nationalities in this game, but they continue as homelanders. I mean - lets be honest, the main reason they switch nationality is, because their homeland league has hard comptetion.

When Estonian leagues would be 50%++ unreadable teams, I would quit this game (maybe), too, because it is not THIS anymore. How I say... game would feel fake.

Edited: 18-01-2019 21:45
Total edits: 1

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We don't care what people here have to say haha, I would say why Irish teams have English names? why not Irish? haha, Irish language is almost not used in Ireland maybe 2% of population knows it. Im not English to have English name, I'm POLISH no matter where I am, but maybe your countries are different. Why would I care if my team's name annoys your eyes haha.

""lets be honest, the main reason they switch nationality is, because their homeland league has hard comptetion"

All best Polish teams from Ireland play for the Polish league clans and in my one, I'm the only emigrant rest of them are from Polish divisions, and guess what I have the highest amount of titles won in our inside clan friendly league, so homeland hard competition is bul***

We are living in Ireland, that's why register team in Ireland, I din't switch, don't be silly ! To be honest I wish to be in the Polish league, because Irish market is dead, nothing to buy !

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Can't edit, sorry for another post, but why we would want to be in the Irish ghost divisions? except the Premier League when thanks to us (Polish people) this league is alive. I would want to be registered in Poland because it would be more fun. Unfortunately can't switch to Poland even if I'm Polish, because I registered my team in Ireland.

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raamatupood wrote:
...I mean - lets be honest, the main reason they switch nationality is, because their homeland league has hard comptetion...


usually it's because of the opposite reason
They don't like playing in non competitive leagues and "dead" transfer markets

It's an online game. The stronger the local community is (both in activity and fair competitiveness) the more fun you have and the longer you stick around

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[FLUSA]
President
raamatupood wrote:
I personally don't understand why people switch their nationalities in this game, but they continue as homelanders. I mean - lets be honest, the main reason they switch nationality is, because their homeland league has hard comptetion.


The main reason they "switch leagues" is because there is no option to switch leagues, you don't get the option of choosing what league you'd like to play, if you're Estonian and live in Ireland, you'll have to register your team in Ireland and it's your team, no one can or should tell you what you should name your team.

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Oo.. My bad then, sorry.

But when emmigrants/immigrants want, they can appeal for their homeland nationality or that is not optional neither?

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[FLUSA]
President
raamatupood wrote:
Oo.. My bad then, sorry.

But when emmigrants/immigrants want, they can appeal for their homeland nationality or that is not optional neither?


Not really, rule #1 of the general rules says "Your team must be registered in the country where you are permanently resident (where you live). You must not register a team in any other country. Should you move to a different country, you must inform our support team, who will let you know how to proceed."

So basically, it isn't optional and there isn't a process in which you can choose the league you want to play.

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That rule is so 2004. I understand why it has been so. 1) easier to hunt cheaters, 2) less work with figuring out trolls and real immigrants/emigrants 3) the www-technology wasn't that advanced back then.

Somehow I understand why it is good -- so who finds new homeland, they integrate better. But integration (in game) may grow to domination. Like Ireland's issue. Big countries are not that hurtable, but smaller are. Like I said, when I am Estonian (small nation) and want to join Managerzone and I find most of clubs under my flag are named to Chinese or Indian or Filipino --- mm.. it feels fake and is not that attractive to join and continue the play. If I check real Bundesliga - they are German, not Przžts or %#@ or ahmapdapap.



As we see, they tell they would gladly play their homeland league.
And there is no rule for integration, that club's name should/must be respectful for new homeland (Ireland in this case) - it should be in English or Irish (I know they speak there English, just "Irish" was an example), or club's name should consist town/city/village name.

I know, Portuguese, German, French, Latin are historical strong languages, too...

But what if.. Chinese start emigration and all clubs will be in Chinese? Then it is still all fine or

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I wish crew would join the "poor activity" countries together, let's say UK & IReland together, Norway, Finland etc together, would be more fun, something like MZ country.

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manekaster wrote:
@lebanon21:
I have to say that I disagree with you. Not all users are so dedicated to this game as a few of us are. Only a minority of the players actually change formations and do tactical tweaks. Just look at various cups. Most people tend to use their default tactics in all games. And I have to repeat, I'm not talking about us, but the casual MZ user. What we need to do is to make the casual keep playing this game, and then I don't think making a need for doing more tactical tweaks will help at all.


I also agree with you

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hanzinho wrote:
I have always been an advocate for a strong correlation between SOT (shots on target) and result. The logic behind this is that users have a much easier time understanding and accepting a loss if the opponent created more chances. You don't want the game to look like a spreadsheet, so having some results against play is both acceptable and needed in my opinion. An occasional 15-10 = 1-2 is ok. However, 35-5 = 0-0 is not needed. Neither is 18-7 = 5-5(!) or 21-1 = 0-1. Such results make users rage-quit in despair. It shouldn't even happen once in a thousand.

"Apple is like a ship with a hole in the bottom, leaking water and my job is to get the shop pointed in the right direction". This was said by Gil Amelio as he was about to be thrown in favor of Steve Jobs. This quote sticks to my mind when I think of the current development of ManagerZone.

ManagerZone has lost +90% of its userbase during the last 10 years or so. The recent 17th Anniversary Cup had a participation of 8 221, even though it was free to non-CMs. MZ Anniversary Cup 2008 had a participation of 144 637. Of course, a large portion of the 144k of users that signed up for the cup back then, were non-paying users. It does however show how unpopular the game has become. Lets use an optimistic estimation and say that the game now has 15k active users (probably less), and that half of the userbase missed out on the recent free cup. So, 15 000 people in the world are playing ManagerZone today. Is it just in my head, or does this number sound ridiculously low? Nowadays, everybody have Internet. Even a mediocre blog in Norway generates more visits per day than 15k.

I have never understood why certain aspects/features exist in the game today. The form-system for one. You'd be surprised how difficult this is for a new user to understand. And it is also difficult to explain it to them. I have a friend who quit this game years ago because he wasn't able to maintain a good form. A simple solution would have been for Crew to remove the chance of players to become tired.
Another user quit this game when both his strikers broke a leg in the same match. We are talking about +40 day injuries.

If a feature makes 0,1% of the users quit the game, then it should be removed. The leakage has to be fixed! I doubt anybody will quit the game because there aren't enough long-term injuries, or because it has become too easy to manage the form.

Then there is the way deterioration was implemented. You fail to understand your users when you remove balls from their beloved players. Yes, it is a small small fraction of the hole ball, but visually it is 1 ball. Look at the image below for a smoother way of implementing deterioration. I spent 1 calorie coming up with this idea, and it is from the very top of my head. A simple icon that shows how far the deterioration process has come. And voila, we can still compare the skills of players from various era.



This player is fully deteriorated (10 out of 10). As a 32 year old, this icon would be approximately 5 out of 10.

Back to the simulator. Did you know that you can win SOT (shots on target) in 91% of the matches in the top-division of WL, and still get relegated? I won SOT in 20 out of 22 matches, but in 12 of the 20 matches I was robbed. Ergo, in 60%(!) of the matches where I won the SOT, I either lost or drew the game.



In Champions Cup I was knocked out despite winning SOT 18-10. The team who beat me went all the way to the final, where they lost against play. Last season ALL 3 Elite cup-finals went against play. Both in Top Teams Cup, Cup Winners Cup and Champions Cup, the team that had the fewest shots on target won the game. The team that got robbed in Top Teams Cup sold out (Ultra Copos). I was thinking of the same (I was the one who lost the Cup Winners Cup). In U18 NE I managed to draw against the bottom team, despite winning SOT 18-7. The result was 5-5! My 8 ball GK (best I have had in years) with great partials, conceded 5 out of 7 shots.

5 hours ago I lost the final of the Fitness Cup S67 against play aswell. It is interesting, but I doubt I have lost SOT in more than a handful of games this entire season, counting official games. It happened once in the league, once in Victory Cup 2018 (grand final).

Then there is U21 Paraguay. Here there was somewhat poetic justice that they knocked out Sweden. Simulator is a bi-product of Swedish comm... socialism. Points for everybody. An extension of "trophies for everybody" that was implemented a few seasons ago. It seems the current Crew forget that this is a game. You won all your games in 5th division? Sure, here you go, special Elite achievement for you.



If Crew wants less users as a way of reducing work load for their servers and hamsters, then I totally understand why they have created such an unfair simulator. I would however be more than a little bit concerned if I was an investor. I have played a heck of a lot of football manager games, and I have never come close to a match-engine where you can get relegated despite winning SOT in 91% of the games.

Recently there was a significant bump in the cost of PT. You probably have seen a lot of teams that has the username "NO MORE PT FOR MZ". Often written in Spanish. I totally understand the move by Crew, because the expenses remain the same. So when income is reduced as a result of their incompetence and lack of understanding this game, then those few souls who remain in this game has to pay way more to keep this sinking ship heading somewhere, anywhere. After all it is better to sink near the bottom of a coral reef than at 1000 meter depths where your only companions will be jelly fish.

Speaking of 3D. One year, almost to this day, a Crew member wrote the following:
"It's a matter of where we want to prioritize our time and effort. Back in 2000-2010 a 3D was a pretty cool thing for a management game to have, but these days people care less about the glossy surface and more about the depth of content. Developing a state-of-the-art 3D would basically exhaust all our available resources, in order to achieve something that we don't actually think the game really needs."

Fast forward a few months, and Crew could inform the community that all available resources was being exhausted in order to create something that the game didn't really need. 3D in all its glory is up and running again, to the awe of all the investors and 10 managers who watch their games in 3D.



I actually had to limit myself, because there probably is a limit to the amount of text in a post. I had a lot to say about the ultra-boring youth system, the lack of staff, facility, statistics, and how the game feels near identical to the game I started playing in 2003.


+58

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So this post now are about Brexit, Trump walls and how we immigrants are wrong? lol

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manekaster wrote:
Gotta agree with you, Mr. book store. I would have reacted the same way with Estonian, German, Turkish and Chinese team names, so this is not just because the names are Polish, although I see more Polish names in non-Polish leagues than team names from other languages. English would have been fine, as all Norwegians also speak and understand English. Same goes for Swedish and Danish team names.

Regarding the team names you're mentioning I think 1948 MKS is okay. Still better than MKS Pogoń Szczecin, which is the full name of the club. Galaktikos and Canarinhos as well. I, as a Norwegian, shouldn't be restricted to name my club a Norwegian team name only. Just to make it clear: Although my team name is Portuguese and a pun on a Portuguese explorer and a Brazilian club, it doesn't mean that I speak that language.

If you guys are [nationality A] living in [country B], well then I don't have any concerns regarding competing in the league system in [country B], but I wouldn't like if someone from [country X] hijacked e.g. the Norwegian league.

I once played in a division called PIAST CHRZĄSZCZYŻEWOSZYCE. Just try to pronounce the name… Eventually I Googled it and found out that Chrząszczyżewoszyce is a fictional city in a movie, which actually made it a bit funny.


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[FLUSA]
President
raamatupood wrote:
That rule is so 2004. I understand why it has been so. 1) easier to hunt cheaters, 2) less work with figuring out trolls and real immigrants/emigrants 3) the www-technology wasn't that advanced back then.


Not really, none of this really applies, and you either allow it or disallow it, if it's allowed point 2 doesn't matter as anyone could chose any league and there's nothing to figure out.

raamatupood wrote:
Like I said, when I am Estonian (small nation) and want to join Managerzone and I find most of clubs under my flag are named to Chinese or Indian or Filipino --- mm.. it feels fake and is not that attractive to join and continue the play. If I check real Bundesliga - they are German, not Przžts or %#@ or ahmapdapap.


On Estonian Top Division you have teams with names like "Pink Assassins", "Monkey Business" and "Listen to Walter Veith"... not very real life professional or Estonian team names.

I would guess that if people could choose the league they want to play in, the smaller leagues like Ireland would be even emptier of managers than they already are, as managers would choose to go to more active ones, where they have a healthy market, a more competitive league, etc., and it also opens the potential for some new issues, for example you could have a group of Chinese friends or a Federation/Clan decide they want to see if they can dominate Nigeria or something like that, pick teams over there and you could end up with a top league in Nigeria full of just Chinese teams that never set foot in Africa.

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[TDF]
President
lukaszsz182 wrote:
I wish crew would join the "poor activity" countries together, let's say UK & IReland together, Norway, Finland etc together, would be more fun, something like MZ country.


No. Not at all. I just created Uxx series for Norwegian teams only with two divisions of U18, U21, and U23 because I’m sick of facing Danish, Estonian, English, and German teams etc in the Uxx NE series. I wouldn’t want to face Irish, UK, and Baltic countries in the senior league. And that’s not because of the (lack of) competition, although it would be great if we were 2000+ active or semi active teams like we used to be 10-15 years ago.

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[TDF]
President
obelisk wrote:


What do you mean, mate?

Edit: men >> mean // raamatupood
Edited: 19-01-2019 14:53
Total edits: 2

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lukaszsz182 wrote:

On Estonian Top Division you have teams with names like "Pink Assassins", "Monkey Business" and "Listen to Walter Veith"... not very real life professional or Estonian team names.


By law in Estonia there are 2 languages accepted for business administration:
Native Estonian and foreign is English. English is very normal here.


If to use logic --- if in small country like Estonia are clubs named in Estonian and some in Chinese. What You think which gets more support and interest from supporters (sponsors) and audience? The club named what natives don't understand anything or team which has understandable or "funky" name - example "FC Sossa Soola" or which is supporting local city - example FC Dublin Piłkarze . ?
FC Dublin Piłkarze is more friendly to Irish than Polscy Piłkarze.

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Anyways. I unsubscribe from this topic now (for FA too sensitive topic).

I see many don't understand what means "hi-jacking" a nationality in game. The "hi-jacking" is not done with thoughts to conquer the nation, like some people told here.
It is because of rules.

People should have chance to pick their nations in this game, when they sign-up. If their mother tongue is Estonian and they feel they are and stay Estonians, why they can't play as Estonians?

When Estonian emigrates to Finland for 10 years, wants to find there Finnish friends and so on, then he can play under Finland's flag ..
If I would join game as Finnish, I would be fair and pick name for club like Viron Tiikeri (Estonian Tiger in Finnish) or FC Espoo Soccer or FC Espoon Eestiläinen (Estonian in Espoo)
, if I play as Eesti Saabas - then Finnish take it I am Somebody Else, an alien .

If there will be 100 Eesti Saabast, and Eesti Saabas will dominate the whole nation - Finnish people think, the game has gone down and they lose heart to continue, they quit. Who joins, they check league, see Eesti Saabas is 50%++, Finnish are minorities, they lose interest.
Big countries doesn't understand the issue.

I leave here one more note from www history (you remember how that site died?), before I leave this topic: one word:

Orkut
Edited: 19-01-2019 14:50
Total edits: 1

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[FLUSA]
President
raamatupood wrote:
By law in Estonia there are 2 languages accepted for business administration:
Native Estonian and foreign is English. English is very normal here.


If to use logic --- if in small country like Estonia are clubs named in Estonian and some in Chinese. What You think which gets more support and interest from supporters (sponsors) and audience? The club named what natives don't understand anything or team which has understandable or "funky" name - example "FC Sossa Soola" or which is supporting local city - example FC Dublin Piłkarze . ?
FC Dublin Piłkarze is more friendly to Irish than Polscy Piłkarze.


What official language is used in Estonia is besides the point, you won't get any supporters or sponsors, the only manager/supporter/fan/etc of your team is you, so as the main guy of your club, you can name it whatever you want as long as it isn't something offensive.

In the USA we have a lot of team names in different languages and I never really gave it a 2nd thought, it's probably the 1st time in a long while that the top division is only english/spanish but we usually have what Polish/Turkish/etc. teams and in more than 10 years in the game I never hear anyone had an issue with foreign team names..... only exception is Chinese teams, but that's because all the letters in their alphabet look the same to us, so we can't tell one team from the other.

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I just did read from one topic Irish were complaining they have few managers (why? 6.5 mil population = 5 x more than Estonians ... and Ireland... Ireland).

1) Gaelic football is the most popular sport in Ireland in terms of match attendance and community involvement, with about 2,600 clubs on the island. In 2003 it represented 34% of total sports attendances at events in Ireland and abroad, followed by hurling at 23%, soccer at 16% and rugby at 8%
2) Soccer is the most widely played team game on the island, and the most popular in Northern Ireland.

That was weird to hear, that Ireland has little interest for MZ.
And voila - somebody noted out the issue, that Irish Top League is Polish.
There is the reason (maybe).

4 Irish players on market, currently.
1) Turkish team selling Irish player
2) 2 Polish named Irish teams
3) one English named team

I don't complain, I just gave my 50 cents to make help game better. Life goes on, if it stays same. Ireland = Poland in MZ. We all know that now. Couple of days ago I didn't know that.

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[FLUSA]
President
raamatupood wrote:

That was weird to hear, that Ireland has little interest for MZ.
And voila - somebody noted out the issue, that Irish Top League is Polish.
There is the reason (maybe).


It's more likely the fact their population is just 5 Million, England has 55 million habitants, mostly kind of boring english team names referencing cities or real life team names like you like them... if you check cups like the Defenders Cup, you'll see 10 teams joined from Ireland and 56 from England, so considering the populations of each Country if you do the math, for every person that joined the cup in England you have two persons joining from Ireland....

So just going by numbers, I'd say the Polish guys in Ireland are really helping the Irish community stay alive and grow.

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[FLUSA]
President
raamatupood wrote:
I just did read from one topic Irish were complaining they have few managers (why? 6.5 mil population = 5 x more than Estonians ... and Ireland... Ireland).


But this is curious, Estonia with a population of barely 1.5M, has a community similar in size to the UK or well... basically most European Countries like France/Italy/etc., what I'd like to know is why the game is successful like this in Estonia? Can that success be replicated in other Countries? What exactly did MZ in Estonia that didn't do in other Countries of Europe? That's a discussion that's really worth it and a lot more interesting than discussing team names.

So why do you think Estonia has relatively so many users? Or anyone knows? Cos I'm really curious about this.

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darkline wrote:
It's more likely the fact their population is just 5 Million, England has 55 million habitants, mostly kind of boring english team names referencing cities or real life team names like you like them... if you check cups like the Defenders Cup, you'll see 10 teams joined from Ireland and 56 from England, so considering the populations of each Country if you do the math, for every person that joined the cup in England you have two persons joining from Ireland....

So just going by numbers, I'd say the Polish guys in Ireland are really helping the Irish community stay alive and grow.


wtf i really love you buddy. Unfortunately irish people don't give a damn to football and i promise, probably here in Dublin have more immigrants than irish people. If you guys that are complainning about other nationalities playing in the Irish League, i think it's better to read and know about Ireland problems and how immigrants help the country to grow up again, mainly polish and brazilian. Well for sure for me was better to stay playing with my brazilian team, with better market, leagues and lot of more competition, but well, i'm living here, have differences about the time to Brazil (and it's hard to follow the theam in a Brazilian time) and to don't have issue about IP and "another country conection". So let's stop to talk about to the immigrants in Ireland, please? ;)
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