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29-03-2024 07:58
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Season 89 · Week 13 · Day 88
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Football » English » ManagerZone talk

MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
President
I have always been an advocate for a strong correlation between SOT (shots on target) and result. The logic behind this is that users have a much easier time understanding and accepting a loss if the opponent created more chances. You don't want the game to look like a spreadsheet, so having some results against play is both acceptable and needed in my opinion. An occasional 15-10 = 1-2 is ok. However, 35-5 = 0-0 is not needed. Neither is 18-7 = 5-5(!) or 21-1 = 0-1. Such results make users rage-quit in despair. It shouldn't even happen once in a thousand.

"Apple is like a ship with a hole in the bottom, leaking water and my job is to get the shop pointed in the right direction". This was said by Gil Amelio as he was about to be thrown in favor of Steve Jobs. This quote sticks to my mind when I think of the current development of ManagerZone.

ManagerZone has lost +90% of its userbase during the last 10 years or so. The recent 17th Anniversary Cup had a participation of 8 221, even though it was free to non-CMs. MZ Anniversary Cup 2008 had a participation of 144 637. Of course, a large portion of the 144k of users that signed up for the cup back then, were non-paying users. It does however show how unpopular the game has become. Lets use an optimistic estimation and say that the game now has 15k active users (probably less), and that half of the userbase missed out on the recent free cup. So, 15 000 people in the world are playing ManagerZone today. Is it just in my head, or does this number sound ridiculously low? Nowadays, everybody have Internet. Even a mediocre blog in Norway generates more visits per day than 15k.

I have never understood why certain aspects/features exist in the game today. The form-system for one. You'd be surprised how difficult this is for a new user to understand. And it is also difficult to explain it to them. I have a friend who quit this game years ago because he wasn't able to maintain a good form. A simple solution would have been for Crew to remove the chance of players to become tired.
Another user quit this game when both his strikers broke a leg in the same match. We are talking about +40 day injuries.

If a feature makes 0,1% of the users quit the game, then it should be removed. The leakage has to be fixed! I doubt anybody will quit the game because there aren't enough long-term injuries, or because it has become too easy to manage the form.

Then there is the way deterioration was implemented. You fail to understand your users when you remove balls from their beloved players. Yes, it is a small small fraction of the hole ball, but visually it is 1 ball. Look at the image below for a smoother way of implementing deterioration. I spent 1 calorie coming up with this idea, and it is from the very top of my head. A simple icon that shows how far the deterioration process has come. And voila, we can still compare the skills of players from various era.



This player is fully deteriorated (10 out of 10). As a 32 year old, this icon would be approximately 5 out of 10.

Back to the simulator. Did you know that you can win SOT (shots on target) in 91% of the matches in the top-division of WL, and still get relegated? I won SOT in 20 out of 22 matches, but in 12 of the 20 matches I was robbed. Ergo, in 60%(!) of the matches where I won the SOT, I either lost or drew the game.



In Champions Cup I was knocked out despite winning SOT 18-10. The team who beat me went all the way to the final, where they lost against play. Last season ALL 3 Elite cup-finals went against play. Both in Top Teams Cup, Cup Winners Cup and Champions Cup, the team that had the fewest shots on target won the game. The team that got robbed in Top Teams Cup sold out (Ultra Copos). I was thinking of the same (I was the one who lost the Cup Winners Cup). In U18 NE I managed to draw against the bottom team, despite winning SOT 18-7. The result was 5-5! My 8 ball GK (best I have had in years) with great partials, conceded 5 out of 7 shots.

5 hours ago I lost the final of the Fitness Cup S67 against play aswell. It is interesting, but I doubt I have lost SOT in more than a handful of games this entire season, counting official games. It happened once in the league, once in Victory Cup 2018 (grand final).

Then there is U21 Paraguay. Here there was somewhat poetic justice that they knocked out Sweden. Simulator is a bi-product of Swedish comm... socialism. Points for everybody. An extension of "trophies for everybody" that was implemented a few seasons ago. It seems the current Crew forget that this is a game. You won all your games in 5th division? Sure, here you go, special Elite achievement for you.



If Crew wants less users as a way of reducing work load for their servers and hamsters, then I totally understand why they have created such an unfair simulator. I would however be more than a little bit concerned if I was an investor. I have played a heck of a lot of football manager games, and I have never come close to a match-engine where you can get relegated despite winning SOT in 91% of the games.

Recently there was a significant bump in the cost of PT. You probably have seen a lot of teams that has the username "NO MORE PT FOR MZ". Often written in Spanish. I totally understand the move by Crew, because the expenses remain the same. So when income is reduced as a result of their incompetence and lack of understanding this game, then those few souls who remain in this game has to pay way more to keep this sinking ship heading somewhere, anywhere. After all it is better to sink near the bottom of a coral reef than at 1000 meter depths where your only companions will be jelly fish.

Speaking of 3D. One year, almost to this day, a Crew member wrote the following:
"It's a matter of where we want to prioritize our time and effort. Back in 2000-2010 a 3D was a pretty cool thing for a management game to have, but these days people care less about the glossy surface and more about the depth of content. Developing a state-of-the-art 3D would basically exhaust all our available resources, in order to achieve something that we don't actually think the game really needs."

Fast forward a few months, and Crew could inform the community that all available resources was being exhausted in order to create something that the game didn't really need. 3D in all its glory is up and running again, to the awe of all the investors and 10 managers who watch their games in 3D.



I actually had to limit myself, because there probably is a limit to the amount of text in a post. I had a lot to say about the ultra-boring youth system, the lack of staff, facility, statistics, and how the game feels near identical to the game I started playing in 2003.
Edited: 03-02-2019 05:31
Total edits: 2
Views: 8575 Posts: 406
 
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Uuesti: MZ - The downfall

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Greeting my Lord and MZ community,

Thumbs up! Nicely formulated and I fully agree with your constructive criticism. On addition to that I have to mention that it is a really slowly paced game. Bottlenecks from my perspective:

1. Youths turn to 21 after 1 year of playing. Most of the new managers fail on their youth training for multiple times, thus it even could take several years before they start acting correctly.

2. MZ seems to be to eager on money. Make free youth leagues, world leagues, etc. during the season break. New managers can decide on the basis of that whether to "spend" some money on buying PT or not. Furthermore, it also gives a little bit attractiveness for them to keep playing during the break.

3. ... Actually I'm not motivated to write here any longer. What MZ project managers, business developers and game architects need to do, is a proper workshop on how to continue. How do we increase the amount of players? Get the players volume high, lower the PT price and take your profits.

Peace,
Mr. SnoopDoog;#MrNinja; ffsEstonianViking

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
President
Thanks for that, and for your input.

I tried to persuade an old friend of mine to re-join the game a few months ago, but he felt it was too expensive for CM. That was before Crew increased the prices radically.. AND that is in Norway, where our salaries are quite good.

That said, my beef is more with the simulator than anything else. If the game is good enough, then Crew can allow themselves to set a high price. Currently, there is a big mismatch between the quality of the game and the actual pricing.

You spend an endless amount of time putting a world class team together, analyzing opponents, setting the proper tactic. But end of the day, luck is the deciding factor. It kinda makes all the effort pointless.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[Celts]
President
Superhuman goalkeepers, aesthetic destroying deteriorations, saturation of leagues/competitions diluting any kind of prestige that comes with winning something, and a convoluted awards tab were notably the reasons I sacked it - the latter probably the straw that broke the camel's back. Some of the features you mention there have always been staple to MZ (form, injuries) when the game was at it's peak users who were interested enough stuck around and could accept such challenges, maybe even enjoyed them, something slightly different to being led by the hand, not your typical instant success option. Oh look, achievement unlocked!

Ultimately the game had a big restructure (though not regarding the sim,) and after years of a niche userbase enjoying it for what it was, I think it's fair to say if the introduction of those above features killed it for me, it would have done for others also. Subsequently those of us who quit have not been replaced, leaving behind the current scenario of 15K of you grinding it out, dispersed across the billion different leagues, watching your players diminish at a corresponding rate to the online counter, the only activity audible from MZ dressing rooms across the land, the sound of superhuman goalkeepers sitting in pitch black, laughing hysterically. That 3 handling youth cannot be beaten, and you damn well know it.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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Hi,guy. I watch your matches in the WL top series, I dont kown how is your goalkeeper, but obviously you have bad strikers, for exmaple,Deng liang xi,he is in my team last season, I know he is not a good striker;)
Your team got more SC in most matches, but more SC one must be win? I dont think so. As we know, short can make more SC than wings, but short may not be more effective than wings.
The similator is fairly for everyone. Not to find excuses for failure, Only to find a successful way. Good luck.

Lu Ying

Age: 50 (Retired)

SpeedSp
Speed: 7
(7)
StaminaSt
Stamina: 8
(8)
Play IntelligencePI
Play Intelligence: 9
(9)
PassingPa
Passing: 6
(6)
ShootingSh
Shooting: 10
(10)
HeadingHe
Heading: 8
(8)
KeepingKe
Keeping: 1
(1)
Ball ControlBC
Ball Control: 6
(6)
TacklingTa
Tackling: 5
(5)
Aerial PassingAP
Aerial Passing: 7
(7)
Set PlaysSP
Set Plays: 9
(9)
ExperienceEx
Experience: 10
(10)
FormFo
Form: 9
(9)
Total Skill Balls    76

This is my striker. I think he is the best striker in the world. May be most people dont think so, but indeed he is the best, he had won the top score eight times in WL top series. Now how is a good striker;)

Re: MZ - The downfall

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Denílson Mazza

Age: 53 (Retired)

SpeedSp
Speed: 7
(7)
StaminaSt
Stamina: 7
(7)
Play IntelligencePI
Play Intelligence: 9
(9)
PassingPa
Passing: 7
(7)
ShootingSh
Shooting: 10
(10)
HeadingHe
Heading: 5
(5)
KeepingKe
Keeping: 0
(0)
Ball ControlBC
Ball Control: 8
(8)
TacklingTa
Tackling: 9
(9)
Aerial PassingAP
Aerial Passing: 2
(2)
Set PlaysSP
Set Plays: 5
(5)
ExperienceEx
Experience: 10
(10)
FormFo
Form: 9
(9)
Total Skill Balls    69


this is my striker (add 1@ in speed/stamina because of...old age symptoms)

he used to score a lot of goals before the "superhuman keeper" behavior came in effect
he still scores but not as much as before

but I don't complain...
I have my AMCs that tend to score more than they did before
also I have a 1@shooting penalty taker that is doing ok (for the moment) at finding the net from the white spot...


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Re: MZ - The downfall

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*sarcasm*

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
President
iloveu wrote:
Hi,guy. I watch your matches in the WL top series, I dont kown how is your goalkeeper, but obviously you have bad strikers, for exmaple,Deng liang xi,he is in my team last season, I know he is not a good striker;)
Your team got more SC in most matches, but more SC one must be win? I dont think so. As we know, short can make more SC than wings, but short may not be more effective than wings.
The similator is fairly for everyone. Not to find excuses for failure, Only to find a successful way. Good luck.

Lu Ying

Age: 50 (Retired)

SpeedSp
Speed: 7
(7)
StaminaSt
Stamina: 8
(8)
Play IntelligencePI
Play Intelligence: 9
(9)
PassingPa
Passing: 6
(6)
ShootingSh
Shooting: 10
(10)
HeadingHe
Heading: 8
(8)
KeepingKe
Keeping: 1
(1)
Ball ControlBC
Ball Control: 6
(6)
TacklingTa
Tackling: 5
(5)
Aerial PassingAP
Aerial Passing: 7
(7)
Set PlaysSP
Set Plays: 9
(9)
ExperienceEx
Experience: 10
(10)
FormFo
Form: 9
(9)
Total Skill Balls    76

This is my striker. I think he is the best striker in the world. May be most people dont think so, but indeed he is the best, he had won the top score eight times in WL top series. Now how is a good striker;)


Deng Liang Xi actually plays attacking midfield. He does get some scoring chances from that position though. It is just after I sold Agenor Amaral a couple of weeks ago that I use Deng Liang XI as a temporary striker (but only in a wing-tactic). Yesterday I bought a new striker (arriving in some hours).

Xi didn't play striker in my WL matches. Before Amaral, I had Sten Skoog (10sp-10st-7pi-7pa-10sh-9he-7bc). He was also inefficient.

I have tried many different strikers these last seasons. I have also tried numerous goalkeepers. I am relatively happy with my current goalkeeper though. He is not the problem. 6th best in the WL TD S67.3. Strangely enough, he is weaker on paper than my previous goalkeeper (who really sucked).

I am well aware of your striker Lu Ying. I agree, he is the most efficient one. And he is one of the proofs that a hidden skill exist. Jørn Wøien was/is far better on paper, but often needed 10 shots per goal, while your striker scores every 4th or 5th chance he gets.

I wrote a lengthy article about this subject in a newspaper I just released in Norway.

Here is a super-efficient striker:



Here are three notoriously inefficient strikers:



Does it make any sense whatsoever?
No it doesn't. But it means there is a hidden skill that is so strong that it potentially nullifies the skills a player has. And it is constant. Lets just say Crew didn't nail that one either.

Regarding the simulator being fair (or the same) for everybody isn't true at all. I understand where you are coming from, but it is a general misconception. The better your team is, the more at a disadvantage you will be when it comes to results against play. Even if I had the very best striker in the world, I would lose a lot more matches against play than I would win against play.

In real life football there is a balance. At the end of the year you had some luck, and you had some bad luck. In MZ it is not the case, as clearly seen by that string of results I had in WL. Outside WL I beat the same teams. That is why I made it the latter stages of several international cups.

I value your input though.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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Guys, You all overthinking it. I remember I was one of the managers who really make a fuzz about the deterotations, and for some good reasons. About economics it is a bad idea and still is.

But after all these seasons, I really figured out, it was a very big fuzz for nothing. Deterorations aren't that big of a deal, it looks that way but it isn't. Ok it is hard to see my beloved stars now with 6 or 8 speed instead of 8 and 10. But the results where just the same. I also notice that my team really excels on the age of 28 and they still do on the age of 32 (age of 28 I won the Endurance cup, and the BOPT) and now (midweek madness and again BOPT) and all the season between I won the cups of my country and the leauge

So are the detorations bad, not as much you guys think, only on economics it hurt But its your choice to go for money or prices

The conclusion is simple, the amount of balls and experience make up for the detorations of speed and stamina.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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I agree with most. Regarding the point about the user base. Back in 2008 I think that all active members were automatically entered back then, and didn't have to choose to participate so was inflated. Still, the figure is around 70% I'd say.

The sim is the biggest problem, and has been for years. It's not balanced, and doesn't even represent football. It's never being good, but its over 5 years now of Pong, and half the skills don't count. How is someone new to the game going to understand you just stick one guy out wide and kick it to him?

Totally disagree on the deteriorations front, one of the strangest things since the day I joined the game was that to be winning stuff at a serious level, you needed a whole set of players at 30+. Totally bizarre, and still is basically like that.

Youths should arrive far better, train rapidly from 16-21 and then peak at varying points between 21 and 28. Then either rapidly or slowly lose ability from across the whole range of skills. With the average age of a first 11 somewhere around 25-26.

You should have teams where some top players are 21 years old, who may stagnate at that, or become superstars. Some will develop more slowly but be world class as 28. We are going in the right direction, as your team seems to show.

The final and most obvious point is; This is a browser game in a mobile world

Re: MZ - The downfall

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mosmosmos wrote:
This is a browser game in a mobile world


100% true!

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
President
ildraco wrote:
Guys, You all overthinking it. I remember I was one of the managers who really make a fuzz about the deterotations, and for some good reasons.

Tell that to all the managers who quit over it.
That is the essence here. Crew should never implement something that will deter users from continue playing this game. We are talking the very basic form of business strategy.

And for what? Nothing really changed, did it? You still need old players in order to be successful. Crew even tuned down the importance of speed and stamina in the previous simulator update in order to make deterioration in these skills have even less of an impact.

The whole game is built around the training report and receiving new balls. We know the simulator count the decimals. But deep down we still cheer when a player is receiving an "important" ball. We think it will make the difference. Just like our brain is playing tricks with us when a player is losing a ball. It takes some getting used to. Some users fail at this, and they sell out and take a break or worse, quit.

Deterioration could have easily been implemented in a way without removing balls. Just like I showed with that image in my OP. It would have been much easier to accept having just a separate icon indicate the level of deterioration. and I am sure less users would have quit the game over it. And what is going on with the blood-red background of players retiring? That is another horrible design move.

Maintaining an old team and being successful season after season seems easier now than ever before. Because you can prolong the career of your players, and because there are so many cups and money in this game currently. It is not a bad thing though. It is good that managers are allowed to have a competitive team for a long period.

mosmosmos wrote:
Regarding the point about the user base. Back in 2008 I think that all active members were automatically entered back then, and didn't have to choose to participate so was inflated.

Yeah, you are probably right. I remember a few cups where this occurred.

mosmosmos wrote:

You should have teams where some top players are 21 years old, who may stagnate at that, or become superstars. Some will develop more slowly but be world class as 28. We are going in the right direction, as your team seems to show.

I am not so sure we are moving in the right direction. In S39 I won the Endurance Cup, despite my team having an average age of 26. I didn't achieve the same this time around, despite the fact that it was a much higher level of competition back then. From what I can tell, XP matters more now than back then. Without good XP the simulator is really screwing you over (SOT vs result).

I have seen several good 23/24 year old players lately, that I would have bought if XP wasn't a factor. Either remove XP, reduce the importance of it significantly, or have players reach 9-10 balls there at a much earlier age than currently.

Some players have +60 balls when they are 21 and +70 when they are 23/24. I have seen 25 year old players training in set plays, because all other skills was maxed out. But XP ruins it. Especially since these players have been camped alot, thus having even lower XP than what is normal at that age.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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Darn it, this is the first thread in my memory where I aboslutely got nothing to say. Not even a kanga joke. The mood is just to gloomy.

mosmosmos wrote:
This is a browser game in a mobile world


Can we all agree that I said that first?

Thank you,
aemi

Re: MZ - The downfall

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hanzinho wrote:
I have seen several good 23/24 year old players lately, that I would have bought if XP wasn't a factor. Either remove XP, reduce the importance of it significantly, or have players reach 9-10 balls there at a much earlier age than currently.

Some players have +60 balls when they are 21 and +70 when they are 23/24. I have seen 25 year old players training in set plays, because all other skills was maxed out. But XP ruins it. Especially since these players have been camped alot, thus having even lower XP than what is normal at that age.


That's what I found when I built my previous team (the one I sold at the end of season 66 for about 60 million AUD). They were all in the 27-29 age range and came third in BOTP celestial cup of that season. They were a very good side, but struggled to win games important games in the Australian domestic A-league, plus they got bogged down league 2-3 of the world league.

Their shots on goal to scoring ratio was horrible, truly atrocious. While I would see strikers with much worse skills than mine, scoring against the same sides I was playing at will.

There is definitely a hidden skill to a player converting shots on goal into goals. All I can think of from a training stand point that you can control, is high PI and exp. But something else is also going on, what it is though. I don't know. No one does, all you can do is buy striker you know have this hidden talent through watching top scorer boards.

But on experience vs training, I found that my focus on getting more balls at a younger age, greatly affected how much experience my players accumulated. This is turn delayed, results from being able to be achieved despite having a team with my balls than my opponents.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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scruttino wrote:
But on experience vs training, I found that my focus on getting more balls at a younger age, greatly affected how much experience my players accumulated. This is turn, delayed results from being able to be achieved despite having a team with more balls than my opponents.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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@scruttino

Obviously no one would care to remember but I've always defended the sim. It's no luck that some teams manage to consistently win while others despite having more shots always fluke out.

This player is a great example showing the real significance of different skills. Most managers won't even consider buying him, but I too agree he is one of the best strikers out there.

Lu Ying

Age: 50 (Retired)

SpeedSp
Speed: 7
(7)
StaminaSt
Stamina: 8
(8)
Play IntelligencePI
Play Intelligence: 9
(9)
PassingPa
Passing: 6
(6)
ShootingSh
Shooting: 10
(10)
HeadingHe
Heading: 8
(8)
KeepingKe
Keeping: 1
(1)
Ball ControlBC
Ball Control: 6
(6)
TacklingTa
Tackling: 5
(5)
Aerial PassingAP
Aerial Passing: 7
(7)
Set PlaysSP
Set Plays: 9
(9)
ExperienceEx
Experience: 10
(10)
FormFo
Form: 9
(9)
Total Skill Balls    76


My first A-League winning team was sold for 18 million AUD, while my striker was sold for 9. Which means the 10 remaining averaged below 1 mil. During that season I had the second lowest top 11 value.

I started my last rebuild with 30 million, still no where near the 50-60 million that you, eric_the_eel, Bondi Icebergs, aarons somehow managed to get. Yet I still compete.

My point is, managers buy "good" players and expect results where in reality they're buying players that only look good on paper. Then they get frustrated when they lose to a "worse" team.

My point is only valid for mid level teams, which 70% of us are. I can't speak for the top.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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option A:
There's a hidden skill

option B:
The RNG gets stacked in favor of the weaker team (probabilities)

option C:
The difference between high @s might not be what we think it is or is analogous to the difference in low @s (ie if the difference(in quality) in skills 8@ and 9@ is X and the difference in skills 4@ and 5@ is Y, then Y > X)

option D:
the RNG in general is too damn high

option E:
all of the above

Re: MZ - The downfall

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*or isn't analogous

Re: MZ - The downfall

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We all must agree that something is wrong, when all other skills and experience are the same, that a striker with 9 balls in shooting scores more often than a striker with 10 balls

Or how some players seem to dribble like they have a magnet on their foot with less BC, than another with high BC

Some things don't make sense

@mos - I've always said the games needs a sim that reflects normal football tactics

And make it mobile

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
President
scruttino wrote:

But on experience vs training, I found that my focus on getting more balls at a younger age, greatly affected how much experience my players accumulated.

I am yet to see that link. I think it might be a coincidence. Some players receive XP faster than others. My bet is that it is just random. It is Crew's MO.

Take this chap as an example: 203025584
23 years of age, 72 balls. 6 in XP. Even as a 21 year old he was +60 balls.

These players are a waste from 24 to 27/28, where they are too old to play at Uxx level, and too young (due to lack of XP) to play at senior level. Strange game mechanics if you ask me. Going from U23 to senior level in MZ is among the longest journeys you can have in online gaming today. It takes more than a full year. And this journey is filled up with matches going against play, due to the lack of XP. No wonder so many managers sell out during this period. You have to have some serious amount of grit to endure.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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hanzinho wrote:
I am yet to see that link. I think it might be a coincidence. Some players receive XP faster than others. My bet is that it is just random. It is Crew's MO.

Take this chap as an example: 203025584
23 years of age, 72 balls. 6 in XP. Even as a 21 year old he was +60 balls.

These players are a waste from 24 to 27/28, where they are too old to play at Uxx level, and too young (due to lack of XP) to play at senior level. Strange game mechanics if you ask me. Going from U23 to senior level in MZ is among the longest journeys you can have in online gaming today. It takes more than a full year. And this journey is filled up with matches going against play, due to the lack of XP. No wonder so many managers sell out during this period. You have to have some serious amount of grit to endure.


I agree the age of 24-27/28 is a wasted year.

I had a 60+ ball 21 year old as well, didn't turn into a world beater, but a handy centre back.

My point about TC is to maximise player training progress I would send players whenever possible on back-to-back TCs as seasons switched over.

This would mean they'd be out of action for 70 days in a row. Basically a full regular season. So the players only got to 10 experience aged 28-29-30. Which meant there was never a sweet spot window before deterioration kicked in where the whole squad could be 10 experience and player at their peak together

But some players do gain experience horribly slowly, I had a brilliant winger named Oliver Lussier, he's on the Canadian NT. But he gained experience slower than any player I've ever seen. There is no way he would of got to 10 experience before he turned 30

Re: MZ - The downfall

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aldebaran wrote:

option C:
The difference between high @s might not be what we think it is or is analogous to the difference in low @s (ie if the difference(in quality) in skills 8@ and 9@ is X and the difference in skills 4@ and 5@ is Y, then Y > X)


It's definitely not linear. Many years ago they showed something where they had 4 and 10 ball speed players running across the pitch. It's almost certainly a law of diminishing returns.

scruttino wrote:
We all must agree that something is wrong, when all other skills and experience are the same, that a striker with 9 balls in shooting scores more often than a striker with 10 balls

Or how some players seem to dribble like they have a magnet on their foot with less BC, than another with high BC


I used tosspots excellent online tool a few years back and didn't get this 9 ball/10 ball shooting thing. There was generally a curve, though diminishing between skills and conversion.

From what I remember, I many of the skills don't appear to operate in isolation even when operating on what appeared to be single skills. Strikers with higher ball control had much better conversion rates when shooting.

Players with high PI always seemed much better at controlling passes on the move. Often, the number of skill balls of the passer seemed to have an impact on the control of the receiver. This may intuitively make sense to be coded within the algorithm but doesn't come through visually.

This is all applicable to playing short passing, which basically involves passing the ball up field as efficiently as possible and getting a 1-on-1 run at (into) the keeper and hoping you manage to put one in.

Use Wings seems to involve little more than ensuring your player makes a tackle, while simultaneously firing a 50 yard diagonal ball out to a winger, who then runs dead straight with 5 defenders swarming him. Before plonking a pinpoint ball onto the head of an unmarked striker who scores 18 yard headers!

The sim is the downfall of MZ, it's always been rubbish, and that was sort of acceptable 15 years ago, and at least there was only 1 tactic to play.

From an investment point of view through, the game has gone. You could give it the best sim in the world, new people aren't going to be playing this now. It only really makes financial sense to milk the existing userbase as it dwindles away.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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mosmosmos wrote:
I used tosspots excellent online tool a few years back and didn't get this 9 ball/10 ball shooting thing. There was generally a curve, though diminishing between skills and conversion.

From what I remember, I many of the skills don't appear to operate in isolation even when operating on what appeared to be single skills. Strikers with higher ball control had much better conversion rates when shooting.


Even Toss would have to alter his spreadsheet with the new adjustments to the sim, His statement that goalkeepers only need 5 stamina was always contentious

But my point on some striker scoring more with less shooting is demonstrated by this player

António Borba id: 196458494

Before his previous club sold him recently I was shown his skills, Some I don't remember exactly, but I'll give you a ball park figure
8 Speed
8 Stamina
7-9? PI
9 Shooting
7? Heading
8 BC

But he would always win the A-League top scorer award and by at least 15-20 goals, During this same period of time I had strikers much better than this, barely managing half his total goals scored for the season

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
President
mosmosmos wrote:

From an investment point of view through, the game has gone. You could give it the best sim in the world, new people aren't going to be playing this now. It only really makes financial sense to milk the existing userbase as it dwindles away.

Hopefully Stillfront Group AB doesn't share your opinion. My guess is that both 3D and the radical increase in cost of PT was measures to please Stillfront. Nothing sounds better in the ears of a middle aged guy with little knowledge about football manager games and its audience, then the magical word "3D".



What this game needs more than anything, besides an improved simulator, is a completely new youth system. Possibly built from scratch.

Tomorrow we receive new youths. When they arrive, we have no idea if they are good or bad. Heck, we don't even know who is a goalkeeper and who is an outfield player. The balls they come with have no correlation with where their talent is. 0,0 balls in KE will annoyingly often result in a cone in that skill. The different elements simply aren't linked together at all. It is absurd.

The person who designed this youth system back in the day, should receive some kind of award. He managed to suck absolutely all the potential and fun out of what could and should be the most exciting part of a football manager game.

It is such a shame, because the youth system is among the first things a new manager is facing. You could say its the "welcome screen" after the tutorials have finished. As a new manager you will be unfamiliar with the training speed these youths have, so you will just assume that they all suck big time. It doesn't exactly inspire you to continue playing this game, does it?

I am not gonna go into detail how this system should be. But keywords: bigger skill variety in the arriving youth players. Quality should be somewhat (but not 100%) dependent on a new Academy facility (that you can build and upgrade). Tools (through) scouts (not the current silly scout system) to find clues (not blueprint) about the potential in a given skill (cost a fee).

Re: MZ - The downfall

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hanzinho wrote:
Hopefully Stillfront Group AB doesn't share your opinion. My guess is that both 3D and the radical increase in cost of PT was measures to please Stillfront. Nothing sounds better in the ears of a middle aged guy with little knowledge about football manager games and its audience, then the magical word "3D".

I'd recommend reading some of Stillfronts investor presentations.

MZ is classified under "Legacy" on the product lifecycle. This is has the commentary of;
  • No marketing spend
  • Profitability
  • Declining Revenues


Managerzone revenue is roughly £1m SEK. Meaning that it now represents less than 0.3% of Stillfronts business.

This is from a company that spends £200m EUR a year on marketing. MZ is just a legacy income stream that can be managed for its long tail.

I imagine the radical increase in PT was caused by MZ reporting a 0% EBITDA margin not long back thus not being able to come through on that front either.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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hanzinho wrote:
Hopefully Stillfront Group AB doesn't share your opinion. My guess is that both 3D and the radical increase in cost of PT was measures to please Stillfront. Nothing sounds better in the ears of a middle aged guy with little knowledge about football manager games and its audience, then the magical word "3D".

I'd recommend reading some of Stillfronts investor presentations.

MZ is classified under "Legacy" on the product lifecycle. This is has the commentary of;
  • No marketing spend
  • Profitability
  • Declining Revenues


Managerzone revenue is roughly £1m SEK. Meaning that it now represents less than 0.3% of Stillfronts business.

This is from a company that spends £200m EUR a year on marketing. MZ is just a legacy income stream that can be managed for its long tail.

I imagine the radical increase in PT was caused by MZ reporting a 0% EBITDA margin not long back thus not being able to come through on that front either.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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Couldn't agree more. At this point I log into the game to check training reports, send players to TC, and waste time clicking around at the same thing to waste some time at work.

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[FLUSA]
President
mosmosmos wrote:
I imagine the radical increase in PT was caused by MZ reporting a 0% EBITDA margin not long back thus not being able to come through on that front either


You mean the price of PT in Countries like Argentina? In USD/Euros they cost the same they did in December 2017, they can get 25 tokens for about $1.50 USD but because of the 50% inflation the Country had in 6 months, they had to adjust the price from $0.75 USD for 25 tokens to the current price of $1.50 USD. I imagine at $0.75 and after the payment processing company charged their set fee + %, the margin would be negligible so the only option was raising the prices in pesos so they matched the Dec 2017 prices.

In the past you could get CM and that's all you needed, but one problem is that now that CM doesn't cover every competition and you have multiple leagues and stuff you need to do to get your bonus, the price of the tokens in many Countries is too expensive and new users just don't want to expend that much money, people still signs up to play the game but many don't seem to stick around, I think lowering the prices would help keep new users in the game.... or maybe just include the subscription to the World & Uxx leagues into the CM package.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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the greatest problem in this game is just, You cant play the game if you not a paying member. That is what killing this game.

You can't see the training graphs of players on the TL.
You can't see your own maxings or better You even cant mark them with a flag (C'mon)
Managing trainers is a hell...

This it the great problem. That and that the game take you a long time to really get youre somewhere. But thats the game it is.

The big issue is just, not paying members have a huge disadvantage.... Its annoying like hell

Re: MZ - The downfall

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I finally feel I'm mastering the game you guys want to change it up. I feel the game is pretty fair. I don't think it needs major changes. The sim is ok for me, gives weaker teams more chance to cause upsets. Even when they change to a new sim, I'm pretty sure there will be people complaining about issues in the new sim, you can't please them all. Like the great aimi first said it needs to be more mobile friendly I guess to be more popular. I think the tour money has been helping non paying teams to build better teams. Even though it has inflated the market you can get youths and build form the youth academy. When I first started this game in 2014 it was much tougher to compete if you weren't a paying member.

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[WCE]
President
The sim is ok, says the guy who isn't spending a dime on the game. And for that reason, doesn't compete in any competitions outside domestic league and an occasional free cup ;)

"Gives weaker teams more chance to cause upsets"

Actually it doesn't. If by weaker you mean bad teams vs. good teams.
Because here we are talking 8-0, 12-0 all day long. And I am glad.

It is when teams within a certain range (quality) of one another meets, that results are all over the place. You wouldn't know, since you only compete in US 1. div. This happens a lot in WL for example, and at the later stages of cup competitions, national team tournaments etc.

I have won the last 41 out of 44 games in Norwegian top-division, because most teams are outside of my range quality wise. Even if my team have an off-day and opponent a good day, I usually win 2-0 or 3-1 instead of 6-0.

Tour money doesn't help anybody. It just causes inflation. The money you get becomes worthless. +10 mill EUR transfers used to be a rarity. Nowadays they occur a couple of times per day. I wanted to buy a striker. A friend thought I was insane for offering the seller (guarantee bid) 12,5 mill EUR. I got outbid, and the player sold for +15 mill EUR :D

I possibly couldn't disagree more with you. But I value your input. Always nice to hear from people who don't actually play this game. They always have so much insight..

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albeagle wrote:
Like the great aimi first said it


We are officially loyal friends. Dark bengal tiger aka darkline, please leave him alone, you must have better things to do, like post in murder's guestbook lol.

Re: MZ - The downfall

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[WCE]
President
ildraco wrote:
the greatest problem in this game is just, You cant play the game if you not a paying member. That is what killing this game.

You can't see the training graphs of players on the TL.
You can't see your own maxings or better You even cant mark them with a flag (C'mon)
Managing trainers is a hell...

The big issue is just, not paying members have a huge disadvantage.... Its annoying like hell

I agree with you that it is a steep hill for new members. It takes time to be willing to open up the wallet, but how can you get addicted to MZ if you can't even follow the training progression of your players. You are basically blinded. Such core-features should be available to everybody.

Maybe new teams should receive 6 months of CM. It usually takes a couple of seasons to get drawn into the game.

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hanzinho wrote:
The sim is ok, says the guy who isn't spending a dime on the game. And for that reason, doesn't compete in any competitions outside domestic league and an occasional free cup ;)


I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people paying for the game that agree with me. If not than you'd see no one playing the game.



aemi wrote:
We are officially loyal friends.


You'll always been my loyal friend.

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[WCE]
President
albeagle wrote:
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people paying for the game that agree with me. If not than you'd see no one playing the game.

I am sure there are plenty of managers who either likes the simulator, or doesn't really have an opinion on the matter. It is beside the point. The point is that MZ barely have any users left. Plenty isn't really plenty, when you can count them using 3 digits.

MZ's revenue is 1 million SEK. That is around 110 000 dollars.
Does that sound like a business doing well?

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hanzinho wrote:
The sim is ok, says the guy who isn't spending a dime on the game. And for that reason, doesn't compete in any competitions outside domestic league and an occasional free cup ;)
...
Always nice to hear from people who don't actually play this game. They always have so much insight..


Not trying to take sides here but never knew the Norwegians can be so arrogant. And rude.

Or maybe it's just that one guy.

I can't believe I had to say this, because I am aemi so.. I thought it would be the other way...

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hanzinho wrote:
MZ's revenue is 1 million SEK. That is around 110 000 dollars.
Does that sound like a business doing well?


How did you get that? How many crew members do they have? How do they manage to pay everybody?

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[WCE]
President
MZ had a staff of 7 people in 2017, 2016 and 2015.

Report from Q2 last year (page 13):
https://www.stillfront.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/SF-Q217-Report-Presentation_moNT5959.pdf

One year ago 40% of usage was on Mobile by the way (page 6).

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hanzinho wrote:
MZ had a staff of 7 people in 2017, 2016 and 2015.

Report from Q2 last year (page 13):
https://www.stillfront.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/SF-Q217-Report-Presentation_moNT5959.pdf

One year ago 40% of usage was on Mobile by the way (page 6).


how the heck do they pay 7 ppl with 1 million sek? Plus all the other costs? Is it the investment money?

Another point I would like to make, if they go mobile, say on google play and ios, then they lose 30% of the subscription because it would be eaten by google and apple.

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Ok, if I get banned you started it hanzinho:

https://www.stillfront.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/SF-Q218-Report-Presentation_556rrsg_v39.pdf

Page 23: MZ listed as:
- no marketing investment
- profitability
- declining revenues.

Can MZ be turned around?

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mosmosmos wrote:
This is a browser game in a mobile world


Spot on, mate. I've played this game since 2008 (maybe earlier), and things haven't changed much really. Good thread btw.

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aemi wrote:
how the heck do they pay 7 ppl with 1 million sek? Plus all the other costs? Is it the investment money?


aemi wrote:
Page 23: MZ listed as:
- no marketing investment
- profitability
- declining revenues.


On these numbers you wonder how we are still playing the game at all. The staffing costs of running Crews head office would have to be subsidised heavily/paid out of the profit of other games.

As if the average (a manufacturing monthly income, but it's a ball park figure to start the discussion) salary in SEK is 33,305 per month. Then the game doesn't even make enough money to pay one member of Crews' full year salary. So the profit from other games are paying for 80-85% of Managerzones total per year costs.

The only reason the game still exists is because it has a core userbase of 10k plus people who'll play it to death in it's current state and still pay for it.

It's clear from these figures you'll never see a new sim (no money), there won't be any increase in user numbers because of no marketing investment, and the price of the game will continue to rise because it doesn't turn a profit and hasn't for many years.

Sorry to say but this game really is dead...

And that is truely sad

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[WCE]
President
The 1,3 SEKm that was stated in that PDF-report I mentioned, is quarterly (Q2). That means revenue from april, may and june of last year. Still, it's very little, considering the cost of running this game.

Nothing really changed, because MZ has always been dependent on outside money. Loans to pay for loans. What is concerning is that they exhausted all available resources at 3D, and that is certainly not the cure. Declining revenues isn't because 3D was only available on an old version of IE...

3D should have never been created in the first place. They spent a truck-load of money back in the day (former Crew team), consisting of a staff of 30-40 people. It was as bad of an idea as Head2Head (remember that one?).

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[WCE]
President
Here are my new youths by the way:
http://www.mzplus.info/p?id=9QbTRtj

Oh the excitement! :D

Re: MZ - The downfall

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hanzinho wrote:

3D should have never been created in the first place. They spent a truck-load of money back in the day (former Crew team), consisting of a staff of 30-40 people. It was as bad of an idea as Head2Head (remember that one?).


Yea, they took a load of money from Benchmark Capital and threw it all away on 3D and PowerSoccer just at the same time the 3rd generation consoles came out and found themselves competing against the likes of FIFA.

They made a real mess back at this time (before Patrick came in) and almost went bust and had to let most of the staff go.

I think it became clear they saw PowerSoccer as a way of making real money and got that totally wrong. I'd be really interested understand what the development strategy was around 2007-2009 and how on earth they made the decisions they did.

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hanzinho wrote:
Here are my new youths...

Oh the excitement! :D


Look at the bright side, great form I must say...

Listen, imo, and mosmosmosmosmosmosmos just copied me, if they don't go mobile there is no hope. And I suppose because there is no money, they don't have the resources to go mobile with an app.

But if somehow they do go native mobile, 30% of the subscriptions would be eaten by the sharks of Google and Apple.

That is the only way to attract at least half the users you need. And there is no major marketing needed just developing.

I don't think thunder and co have much room of maneuvering this one, unless they make me crew.

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hanzinho wrote:
The 1,3 SEKm that was stated in that PDF-report I mentioned, is quarterly (Q2). That means revenue from april, may and june of last year. Still, it's very little, considering the cost of running this game.

Nothing really changed, because MZ has always been dependent on outside money. Loans to pay for loans. What is concerning is that they exhausted all available resources at 3D, and that is certainly not the cure. Declining revenues isn't because 3D was only available on an old version of IE...

3D should have never been created in the first place. They spent a truck-load of money back in the day (former Crew team), consisting of a staff of 30-40 people. It was as bad of an idea as Head2Head (remember that one?).


I agree on revision my maths is not that great. But I stand by the rest of what I said.

Maybe it's time to buy Football Manager Mobile 2018, sorry to say it.

I've loved this game, but I'm unsure if I'll play through another 3-4 years to build another senior team from the ground up. I'll probably focus on cracking the U/18 code. At least that's only a 9 month commitment before you can hit the reset button. Maybe take them to U/21 & U/23 level. But then waiting another year before those same players gain enough experience to be competitive as senior level is a straw I'm reluctant to draw.

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[RAF]
President
I had wrote a big post but then decided to scrap it, so that Aemi also understands what I'm writing.

Hanz's intention is very good yet I believe there is nothing that is intended to be done with MZ, as it results from the overall attention this game receives (that we directly see) and from the quarterly reports presented in this topic. 0,3% and 1,3M SEK are cold figures... very cold indeed.

Whatever our ideas, whatever the suggestions given throughout the years, the game has gone from bad to worst, with very small things done the right way or in the right direction. And beta3D is surely not one of them!

I remember the Legends Meeting, when Hanz and the rest of us were pleading the case of what needed to be done, from our perspective of hardened users: training, youths, stats, etc. And I also remember Patrick's eagerness to take it all in yet his sad smile when he talked about prioritisation, lack of substantial funding and so on. We saw it then, we know it now, MZ is at the end of its life cycle, if not over that already.

I don't think it's about going mobile - I personally don't even think this is actually possible since this game, not many remember this!, but this game, the core functions (player generation and maxings, training, simulator) have been purchased by MZ AB back in the days (from the Chinese - yes, the core game is made in China!) and merged into their existing game. This is, imo, the reason why NOONE from CREW ever knew how to answer to myths (we see happening) such as maxings between balls, hidden skills or in-game randomness and why it would be difficult to transform this house into something else - I strongly think they don't know how the foundation was build or where are the main utilities.

FOr the rest, we all know and can agree many of the things said here are true and gravely needed. But I think we can all agree that without someone considering this game has economic potential in order to invest in it and make aprofit, this game will slowly die on its own.

Uuesti: MZ - The downfall

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Oh all mighty, oh...,

MZ-ManagerZone has nothing to do with managing no longer. Slow pace of the game and high price for power tokens is killing this game. Currently it's only about pulling out the last profits from the active players. Long live the King!

#KingIsDead
..., why are we blind, oh... it's the darkness I see." RIP.

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Nothing lives forever, MZ had its run. This is an outdated game. It would need some serious money invested into it to revive it and I don't believe crew intends to do so. As it is it's not gonna last long, it needs to keep up with its competition.

Απ: MZ - The downfall

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I agree with the most..For me the highlights from my eχperience in the game are 2..Oane good and one bad!!Thε best was the intensinve camp and the destruction of the game is the deteroriations!!There is no logic to keep it..I recently sold a 25 years player for 15 millions...Why someone to give a huge amount when in 5 seasons the player will deserve 5?why you dont le us to enjoy our players for more seasons?Why you dont give a new interest in the market with the recalling of deteroriations?Please make a new poll with the question how many want the deteroriations..Believe you will not see more than 5 percent..You are a company and i cant understand why you dont want to keep your clients happy?Give a fresh air in the game!!

Hanzinho great post!!!
 
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