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2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 11-07-2013 15:19

[AUSNZ]

It's great to be in Europe and able to watch the whole match. Been a great match so far, mostly dominated by bowlers until Agar came out - breaking all kinds of records.It's great to be in Europe and able to watch the whole match.

Been a great match so far, mostly dominated by bowlers until Agar came out - breaking all kinds of records.

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Re: 2013 Ashes

By damo11 - 21-07-2013 19:02

[AUSNZ]

This is just so bad. Get it over and done with.This is just so bad. Get it over and done with.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By mosmosmos - 21-07-2013 19:34

[ENG]

Do Australia really want to come back tomorrow?Do Australia really want to come back tomorrow?

Re: 2013 Ashes

By mosmosmos - 21-07-2013 19:44

[ENG]

Well thank god for thatWell thank god for that

Re: 2013 Ashes

By frankzappa - 21-07-2013 19:52

[KERNOW]
President

Last over. Glad it didn't drag into tomorrow. This is set to be the dullest Ashes series ever. Australia just aren't up to it, are they?Last over. Glad it didn't drag into tomorrow.
This is set to be the dullest Ashes series ever.
Australia just aren't up to it, are they?

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 21-07-2013 21:50

[AUSNZ]

Yeah, it's a bit like that. I hope they give the young blokes a chance like Bird and Faulkner over Watson etc - they can't do any worse, but it could do them a world of good. I think it'll be closer in Australia though - better pitches and weather down there.Yeah, it's a bit like that.

I hope they give the young blokes a chance like Bird and Faulkner over Watson etc - they can't do any worse, but it could do them a world of good.

I think it'll be closer in Australia though - better pitches and weather down there.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By mosmosmos - 21-07-2013 22:19

[ENG]

I'd think that would count against you? I think the English pitches are at least giving you the opportunity to get into us, as you have done so far. Looking to the last series, you lost 3 games by an innings, and 3,4 & 5 were Ponting, Clarke & Hussey I'd have thought you best chance would be over here, can see nothing but total decimation down under with this batting line up. I think your top 6 exclusnig Clarke has a total of 5 test centuries between them.

tosspot wrote:

Yeah, it's a bit like that.

I think it'll be closer in Australia though - better pitches and weather down there.

I'd think that would count against you?

I think the English pitches are at least giving you the opportunity to get into us, as you have done so far.

Looking to the last series, you lost 3 games by an innings, and 3,4 & 5 were Ponting, Clarke & Hussey

I'd have thought you best chance would be over here, can see nothing but total decimation down under with this batting line up.

I think your top 6 exclusnig Clarke has a total of 5 test centuries between them.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 21-07-2013 22:29

[AUSNZ]

By better pitches and weather, I mean for our players. Jimmy Anderson and Swann are your best (only?) bowlers. In Perth and Brisbane they won't get spin or swing. Check Warne's stats on those pitches and Swann is nothing on Warne. Finn might do OK, but he's pretty average to be honest. Sydney will be Swann's game though.

mosmosmos wrote:

I'd think that would count against you?

I think the English pitches are at least giving you the opportunity to get into us, as you have done so far.

Looking to the last series, you lost 3 games by an innings, and 3,4 & 5 were Ponting, Clarke & Hussey

I'd have thought you best chance would be over here, can see nothing but total decimation down under with this batting line up.

I think your top 6 exclusnig Clarke has a total of 5 test centuries between them.

By better pitches and weather, I mean for our players. Jimmy Anderson and Swann are your best (only?) bowlers. In Perth and Brisbane they won't get spin or swing. Check Warne's stats on those pitches and Swann is nothing on Warne. Finn might do OK, but he's pretty average to be honest.

Sydney will be Swann's game though.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 21-07-2013 22:30

[AUSNZ]

Also, it'd be nice to win a toss and bat first on a decent wicket - totally different mindset.Also, it'd be nice to win a toss and bat first on a decent wicket - totally different mindset.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By mosmosmos - 21-07-2013 23:00

[ENG]

He doesn't need to have anything on Warne when you consider the batting line-up he's up against. I'd expect to see Bresnan or even Tremlett who can hit the pitch hard to cause you problems while keeping it tight. Either way, it's certainly a more potent bowling attack than the Aussies. Perth excluded, it seems hard to see where you will keep the England top order down to less than 500+ in the first innings, and no-one in the side who would be able to bat for long enough to post a total. This is true, the only way I can see you winning a game.

tosspot wrote:

. Check Warne's stats on those pitches and Swann is nothing on Warne. Finn might do OK, but he's pretty average to be honest.

He doesn't need to have anything on Warne when you consider the batting line-up he's up against.

I'd expect to see Bresnan or even Tremlett who can hit the pitch hard to cause you problems while keeping it tight. Either way, it's certainly a more potent bowling attack than the Aussies.

Perth excluded, it seems hard to see where you will keep the England top order down to less than 500+ in the first innings, and no-one in the side who would be able to bat for long enough to post a total.

tosspot wrote:

Also, it'd be nice to win a toss and bat first on a decent wicket - totally different mindset.

This is true, the only way I can see you winning a game.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By mosmosmos - 21-07-2013 23:01

[ENG]

Though 98 all out at Melbourne on a road may send the shivers down you.Though 98 all out at Melbourne on a road may send the shivers down you.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By frankzappa - 21-07-2013 23:14

[KERNOW]
President

You're right about Watson tosspot. Useless. Never really produced. Another LBW has not helped his cause. He'll be the first to lose his place.You're right about Watson tosspot. Useless. Never really produced. Another LBW has not helped his cause. He'll be the first to lose his place.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By madmonk - 22-07-2013 01:11

[BotP]

See what happened last time in Oz, would have reasonable confidence in any combo of Anderson, Broad, Bresnan, Finn, Tremlett possibly even Rankin & Onions. If we end up with Woakes and/or Dernbach then all bets are off. Anything that favours the Australian pace attack will do the same for the English attack, and I don't think either side has a huge advantage there (these pitches haven't exactly favoured the English bowlers either). Advantage lies in the English batting lineup seems clearly superior to the Australian one. Still wouldn't put it past England to gift an odd game in either country due to random batting collapses, just Australia seem to do that more often now (in the same way as Australia in the 90s seemed to lose either the first Ashes Test if undercooked or a dead rubber).

tosspot wrote:

By better pitches and weather, I mean for our players. Jimmy Anderson and Swann are your best (only?) bowlers. In Perth and Brisbane they won't get spin or swing. Check Warne's stats on those pitches and Swann is nothing on Warne. Finn might do OK, but he's pretty average to be honest.

Sydney will be Swann's game though.

See what happened last time in Oz, would have reasonable confidence in any combo of Anderson, Broad, Bresnan, Finn, Tremlett possibly even Rankin & Onions. If we end up with Woakes and/or Dernbach then all bets are off.

Anything that favours the Australian pace attack will do the same for the English attack, and I don't think either side has a huge advantage there (these pitches haven't exactly favoured the English bowlers either). Advantage lies in the English batting lineup seems clearly superior to the Australian one. Still wouldn't put it past England to gift an odd game in either country due to random batting collapses, just Australia seem to do that more often now (in the same way as Australia in the 90s seemed to lose either the first Ashes Test if undercooked or a dead rubber).

Re: 2013 Ashes

By troyh65 - 22-07-2013 07:30

[Juve]

Our bowling attack has been ok. It's the only thing that has made sure we didn't get beat in 2 days lol I really can't knock the seamers work, they have given us a punchers chance in both tests. We really haven't had a decent spinner since Warne, and Agar is only a boy, he will take some time so we should stick with him and get him match hardened. And we should get that good little Australian leggie Fawad Ahmed into the mix asap lol Now the batting, what an absolute shambles. A disgrace and an embarrassment to the those that have played before them. No one, including clarke have been able to dig in and fight out a decent innings. The bowling from England has been good, but that's not say atleast someone, one of them (excluding the bowlers who have been batting magnificently), could dig in and fight. They have showed a lack of patience, a lack of heart and above all a total lack of batting skill. It really is disgraceful. How on earth does a team pick 5 operners (Watson, Rogers, Cowan, Hughes and Warner to come back) in their team and them get them to bat in the middle order? Where have the middle order batsmen gone? I believe I read somewhere not long ago, in Sheffield Shield cricket (Our version of county cricket) this year, Ponting was the highest run getter with 800. That was the best lol Not so long ago, players were scoring 1500, to get noticed by selectors. Apparently also hardly anyone scored a century. Well, that says alot about the state of Australian cricket. I say, draw stump, take up knitting.Our bowling attack has been ok. It's the only thing that has made sure we didn't get beat in 2 days lol I really can't knock the seamers work, they have given us a punchers chance in both tests. We really haven't had a decent spinner since Warne, and Agar is only a boy, he will take some time so we should stick with him and get him match hardened. And we should get that good little Australian leggie Fawad Ahmed into the mix asap lol

Now the batting, what an absolute shambles. A disgrace and an embarrassment to the those that have played before them. No one, including clarke have been able to dig in and fight out a decent innings. The bowling from England has been good, but that's not say atleast someone, one of them (excluding the bowlers who have been batting magnificently), could dig in and fight. They have showed a lack of patience, a lack of heart and above all a total lack of batting skill. It really is disgraceful.

How on earth does a team pick 5 operners (Watson, Rogers, Cowan, Hughes and Warner to come back) in their team and them get them to bat in the middle order? Where have the middle order batsmen gone? I believe I read somewhere not long ago, in Sheffield Shield cricket (Our version of county cricket) this year, Ponting was the highest run getter with 800. That was the best lol Not so long ago, players were scoring 1500, to get noticed by selectors. Apparently also hardly anyone scored a century. Well, that says alot about the state of Australian cricket.

I say, draw stump, take up knitting.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By troyh65 - 22-07-2013 08:18

[Juve]

I forgot to add in the words 'gutless, useless and pathetic'.I forgot to add in the words 'gutless, useless and pathetic'.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By deleted_5669342 - 22-07-2013 10:22

I agree troy, our batting is terrible. It's time for a shake-up in my opinion. Time to get actual talented youths into the test side. If I were selectors, the next ashes XI would be: [batting order] 1. Jordan Silk - only 3 first class games but has already proved that he can bat for a LONG time [anyone watch his innings in the shield final?] 2. Phil Hughes - People doubt him, but he is record is excellent - Should always open as he has in First class cricket. 3. Usman Khawaja - Don't know why John Inverarity is so biased towards khawaja but he is a talent, should have been picked ahead of the burger COWAN. 4. Joe Burns - Talented - his 40 average in FC cricket doesn't represent how good he is imo. 5. Michael Clarke - Best at No.5 despite people saying he needs to move up. Some say he will retire in 12 months? 6. Steve Smith - improved batsman and handy with the ball 7. James Faulkner - Proven to be dangerous with both bat and ball.. genuine wicket taker. 8. James Pattinson - Huge potential imo. Very underrated with bat aswell. 9. Mitchell Starc - Obviously a dangerous bowler but leaks runs. Once he fixes that, he would be very hard to drop. 10. Fawad Ahmed - 31 yo leg spinner, taking wickets everywhere depsite an average of 31 with the bowl. Very talented and I rate him above Agar and Lyon. 11. Jackson Bird - Future Glenn Mcgrath but a genuine No.11 Batsman. Tough leaving out Alex Doolan [talented batsman] and I think Watson can be one of Australia's best all rounder, if he didnt get out LBW all the time. Also, Chris Rogers is the No.1 Opener for Australia atm but on his last legs @38 years old. Katich Should be recalled, averaging 70+ with the bat in County Cricket at the moment ..!!! And Siddle, despite his fight, I don't see him very damaging .. Just my two cents. Anyone else thinks this Australian side is the worst ever? Don't forget the current top six that played at lords have all hit one half century this series =/ Australia are screwed though, and will have the worst losing streak since the 1880s after Old trafford!I agree troy, our batting is terrible. It's time for a shake-up in my opinion. Time to get actual talented youths into the test side.
If I were selectors, the next ashes XI would be: [batting order]

1. Jordan Silk - only 3 first class games but has already proved that he can bat for a LONG time [anyone watch his innings in the shield final?]
2. Phil Hughes - People doubt him, but he is record is excellent - Should always open as he has in First class cricket.
3. Usman Khawaja - Don't know why John Inverarity is so biased towards khawaja but he is a talent, should have been picked ahead of the burger COWAN.
4. Joe Burns - Talented - his 40 average in FC cricket doesn't represent how good he is imo.
5. Michael Clarke - Best at No.5 despite people saying he needs to move up. Some say he will retire in 12 months?
6. Steve Smith - improved batsman and handy with the ball
7. James Faulkner - Proven to be dangerous with both bat and ball.. genuine wicket taker.
8. James Pattinson - Huge potential imo. Very underrated with bat aswell.
9. Mitchell Starc - Obviously a dangerous bowler but leaks runs. Once he fixes that, he would be very hard to drop.
10. Fawad Ahmed - 31 yo leg spinner, taking wickets everywhere depsite an average of 31 with the bowl. Very talented and I rate him above Agar and Lyon.
11. Jackson Bird - Future Glenn Mcgrath but a genuine No.11 Batsman.

Tough leaving out Alex Doolan [talented batsman] and I think Watson can be one of Australia's best all rounder, if he didnt get out LBW all the time. Also, Chris Rogers is the No.1 Opener for Australia atm but on his last legs @38 years old.

Katich Should be recalled, averaging 70+ with the bat in County Cricket at the moment ..!!!
And Siddle, despite his fight, I don't see him very damaging ..

Just my two cents.
Anyone else thinks this Australian side is the worst ever?
Don't forget the current top six that played at lords have all hit one half century this series =/

Australia are screwed though, and will have the worst losing streak since the 1880s after Old trafford!

Re: 2013 Ashes

By deleted_5669342 - 22-07-2013 10:25

No, Ponting was the ONLY batsman over 800.. We'd be beaten by Bangladesh at the moment

troyh65 wrote:

I believe I read somewhere not long ago, in Sheffield Shield cricket (Our version of county cricket) this year, Ponting was the highest run getter with 800.

No, Ponting was the ONLY batsman over 800..

We'd be beaten by Bangladesh at the moment

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 22-07-2013 10:30

[AUSNZ]

Interesting that you chose not to pick a keeper...

brendanzh wrote:

I agree troy, our batting is terrible. It's time for a shake-up in my opinion. Time to get actual talented youths into the test side.
If I were selectors, the next ashes XI would be: [batting order]

1. Jordan Silk - only 3 first class games but has already proved that he can bat for a LONG time [anyone watch his innings in the shield final?]
2. Phil Hughes - People doubt him, but he is record is excellent - Should always open as he has in First class cricket.
3. Usman Khawaja - Don't know why John Inverarity is so biased towards khawaja but he is a talent, should have been picked ahead of the burger COWAN.
4. Joe Burns - Talented - his 40 average in FC cricket doesn't represent how good he is imo.
5. Michael Clarke - Best at No.5 despite people saying he needs to move up. Some say he will retire in 12 months?
6. Steve Smith - improved batsman and handy with the ball
7. James Faulkner - Proven to be dangerous with both bat and ball.. genuine wicket taker.
8. James Pattinson - Huge potential imo. Very underrated with bat aswell.
9. Mitchell Starc - Obviously a dangerous bowler but leaks runs. Once he fixes that, he would be very hard to drop.
10. Fawad Ahmed - 31 yo leg spinner, taking wickets everywhere depsite an average of 31 with the bowl. Very talented and I rate him above Agar and Lyon.
11. Jackson Bird - Future Glenn Mcgrath but a genuine No.11 Batsman.

Tough leaving out Alex Doolan [talented batsman] and I think Watson can be one of Australia's best all rounder, if he didnt get out LBW all the time. Also, Chris Rogers is the No.1 Opener for Australia atm but on his last legs @38 years old.

Katich Should be recalled, averaging 70+ with the bat in County Cricket at the moment ..!!!
And Siddle, despite his fight, I don't see him very damaging ..

Just my two cents.
Anyone else thinks this Australian side is the worst ever?
Don't forget the current top six that played at lords have all hit one half century this series =/

Australia are screwed though, and will have the worst losing streak since the 1880s after Old trafford!

Interesting that you chose not to pick a keeper...

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 22-07-2013 10:48

[AUSNZ]

I think Clarke should move to #3. He's only had 2 innings there ever so hardly enough to be superstitious about the position. He's basically been coming in as a number 3 but with 3 down instead of 5. Steady the ship earlier.I think Clarke should move to #3. He's only had 2 innings there ever so hardly enough to be superstitious about the position. He's basically been coming in as a number 3 but with 3 down instead of 5. Steady the ship earlier.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By deleted_5669342 - 22-07-2013 11:08

Hmm.. I agree in part. However its more dangerous with the new ball, imagine he gets out at #3, i reckon Australia would be even more screwed :D

tosspot wrote:

I think Clarke should move to #3. He's only had 2 innings there ever so hardly enough to be superstitious about the position. He's basically been coming in as a number 3 but with 3 down instead of 5. Steady the ship earlier.

Hmm.. I agree in part.
However its more dangerous with the new ball, imagine he gets out at #3, i reckon Australia would be even more screwed :D

Re: 2013 Ashes

By troyh65 - 22-07-2013 12:02

[Juve]

Katich should definitely be recalled. He should have never been dropped! It's a complete farce why the guy isn't in the team.Katich should definitely be recalled. He should have never been dropped! It's a complete farce why the guy isn't in the team.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By deleted_5669342 - 22-07-2013 12:52

Yeah, but I think he was dropped because of a bust up with Clarke, so no chance he'd come back with clarke in the team i'd imagine

troyh65 wrote:

Katich should definitely be recalled. He should have never been dropped! It's a complete farce why the guy isn't in the team.

Yeah, but I think he was dropped because of a bust up with Clarke, so no chance he'd come back with clarke in the team i'd imagine

Re: 2013 Ashes

By deleted_5669342 - 22-07-2013 12:53

phil hughes can keep can't he :D

tosspot wrote:

Interesting that you chose not to pick a keeper...

phil hughes can keep can't he :D

Re: 2013 Ashes

By troyh65 - 22-07-2013 13:20

[Juve]

Which is just pathetic. If you hear the story, Katich was in his right mind to have a crack at Clarke. What an fn joke.

brendanzh wrote:

Yeah, but I think he was dropped because of a bust up with Clarke, so no chance he'd come back with clarke in the team i'd imagine

Which is just pathetic. If you hear the story, Katich was in his right mind to have a crack at Clarke. What an fn joke.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By mosmosmos - 22-07-2013 14:20

[ENG]

Australia would probably do better without Clarke. Particularly over the last year or so they have come to rely on him so much and his wonderful performances papered over the very large cracks. A few games without Clarke might make some of the players step up and take responsibility for their own performances rather than hoping for Clarke to bail them out. Of course he isn't going to get dropped, so it would have to be an injury.Australia would probably do better without Clarke.

Particularly over the last year or so they have come to rely on him so much and his wonderful performances papered over the very large cracks.

A few games without Clarke might make some of the players step up and take responsibility for their own performances rather than hoping for Clarke to bail them out.

Of course he isn't going to get dropped, so it would have to be an injury.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By theme_dreamer - 22-07-2013 16:47

I'm quite late to the conversation, just thought I'd add my two cents. Australia's batting is in such a pathetic state at the moment, and there are no quick fixes. I believe the best option is to only pick the players who have earned their positions through hard work and performance, and are willing to fight, scrap and bleed for the team. In the grim 80's they turned things around by picking hard working fighters who weren't flashy, but would dig in and fight (Border, Waugh, Boon, Marsh, Hughes, etc.) and sticking with them long-term. I think the only way to turn things around long term is to go back to that ideal. No more picking potential over performance. No more picking style over substance. No more "X-factor" players. No more dropping players based on one bad game/series. Just hard, honest fighters. At least they would go down with honour. 1. Rogers 2. Hughes 3. Cowan 4. Clarke 5. Katich (Clarkie is no longer a selector!) 6. Wade 7. Faulkner 8. Siddle 9. Harris (when injured replaced by Bird) 10. Pattinson (when injured replaced by Starc/Cummins) 11. Spinner (none of them have played long enough to justify selection... just stick with Lyon and accept he is a defensive bowler who will usually take 3-4 wickets a game) Interesting that you say that tosspot. Warne at Brisbane took 86 wickets in 11 games at an average of 20.3. For interests sake he also averaged 33.18 with the bat. Statistically it is his best ground, and he is on record as saying it was his favourite wicket to play on.I'm quite late to the conversation, just thought I'd add my two cents. Australia's batting is in such a pathetic state at the moment, and there are no quick fixes. I believe the best option is to only pick the players who have earned their positions through hard work and performance, and are willing to fight, scrap and bleed for the team. In the grim 80's they turned things around by picking hard working fighters who weren't flashy, but would dig in and fight (Border, Waugh, Boon, Marsh, Hughes, etc.) and sticking with them long-term. I think the only way to turn things around long term is to go back to that ideal. No more picking potential over performance. No more picking style over substance. No more "X-factor" players. No more dropping players based on one bad game/series. Just hard, honest fighters. At least they would go down with honour.

1. Rogers
2. Hughes
3. Cowan
4. Clarke
5. Katich (Clarkie is no longer a selector!)
6. Wade
7. Faulkner
8. Siddle
9. Harris (when injured replaced by Bird)
10. Pattinson (when injured replaced by Starc/Cummins)
11. Spinner (none of them have played long enough to justify selection... just stick with Lyon and accept he is a defensive bowler who will usually take 3-4 wickets a game)

tosspot wrote:

In Perth and Brisbane they won't get spin or swing. Check Warne's stats on those pitches and Swann is nothing on Warne.

Interesting that you say that tosspot. Warne at Brisbane took 86 wickets in 11 games at an average of 20.3. For interests sake he also averaged 33.18 with the bat. Statistically it is his best ground, and he is on record as saying it was his favourite wicket to play on.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By theme_dreamer - 22-07-2013 17:02

Would just like to add that although George Baileys first class record is not spectacular, every time he has been picked for Australian limited overs teams he has stepped up and rising to the occasion (I believe since starting his 50 over career he is our highest run scorer with the highest average). I think he would probably do the same for the test team if given a chance. He could come into my team for Katich after this series is done.Would just like to add that although George Baileys first class record is not spectacular, every time he has been picked for Australian limited overs teams he has stepped up and rising to the occasion (I believe since starting his 50 over career he is our highest run scorer with the highest average). I think he would probably do the same for the test team if given a chance. He could come into my team for Katich after this series is done.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 22-07-2013 17:27

[AUSNZ]

Sorry, it's Adelaide that Warnie wasn't great at. Don't mind your squad, though if that's your theory I'd pick Khawaja over Cowan. Scoring at a better rate than Cowan in First Class without being too new - his technique is better that the rest as well. I think he has a big future if he's allowed to play consistently for a while. All of his tests have been on low-scoring tours (both teams) or single matches as a fill-in and he hasn't done terribly.Sorry, it's Adelaide that Warnie wasn't great at.

Don't mind your squad, though if that's your theory I'd pick Khawaja over Cowan. Scoring at a better rate than Cowan in First Class without being too new - his technique is better that the rest as well. I think he has a big future if he's allowed to play consistently for a while. All of his tests have been on low-scoring tours (both teams) or single matches as a fill-in and he hasn't done terribly.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By theme_dreamer - 22-07-2013 17:43

I am a Khawaja fan and I really hope he does turn out to be a very good test batsman for Australia. I just think he should work to earn his place, rather than be handed it on a silver platter because his game is aesthetically pleasing. The reason I want Cowan in there is because he is one of the rare players in the current team who has actually earned his spot through weight of runs and centuries. Even though he hasn't nailed down his test spot despite plenty of opportunities, he is the kind of guy who will work hard to do so, because that is how he got there in the first place. I would compare the current Khawaja situation to the Mitchell Johnson saga. Based on a few exceptional performances, Johnson was viewed as undroppable and he performed badly for years. Because he never got dropped, he never had to go back and fix his game. He just kept cruising along, never improving, because he was given no motivation to do so. It ruined his career, and I could potentially see the same thing happen to Khawaja if he isn't made to work on improving his game and earning his spot.I am a Khawaja fan and I really hope he does turn out to be a very good test batsman for Australia. I just think he should work to earn his place, rather than be handed it on a silver platter because his game is aesthetically pleasing. The reason I want Cowan in there is because he is one of the rare players in the current team who has actually earned his spot through weight of runs and centuries. Even though he hasn't nailed down his test spot despite plenty of opportunities, he is the kind of guy who will work hard to do so, because that is how he got there in the first place.

I would compare the current Khawaja situation to the Mitchell Johnson saga. Based on a few exceptional performances, Johnson was viewed as undroppable and he performed badly for years. Because he never got dropped, he never had to go back and fix his game. He just kept cruising along, never improving, because he was given no motivation to do so. It ruined his career, and I could potentially see the same thing happen to Khawaja if he isn't made to work on improving his game and earning his spot.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 22-07-2013 18:16

[AUSNZ]

But they keep bringing him along - he doesn't get a chance to play any cricket cos he's always on tour but never playing. First Class stats: Cowan: 178 innings - 6569 runs at 39.33 with 16 hundreds and 28 fifties Khawaja: 114 innings - 4338 innings at 42.11 with 11 hundreds and 23 fifties They are pretty similar, but I'd say Khawaja has done just as much hard work as Cowan considering the 5 year age gap.

theme_dreamer wrote:

I am a Khawaja fan and I really hope he does turn out to be a very good test batsman for Australia. I just think he should work to earn his place, rather than be handed it on a silver platter because his game is aesthetically pleasing. The reason I want Cowan in there is because he is one of the rare players in the current team who has actually earned his spot through weight of runs and centuries. Even though he hasn't nailed down his test spot despite plenty of opportunities, he is the kind of guy who will work hard to do so, because that is how he got there in the first place.

I would compare the current Khawaja situation to the Mitchell Johnson saga. Based on a few exceptional performances, Johnson was viewed as undroppable and he performed badly for years. Because he never got dropped, he never had to go back and fix his game. He just kept cruising along, never improving, because he was given no motivation to do so. It ruined his career, and I could potentially see the same thing happen to Khawaja if he isn't made to work on improving his game and earning his spot.

But they keep bringing him along - he doesn't get a chance to play any cricket cos he's always on tour but never playing.

First Class stats:
Cowan: 178 innings - 6569 runs at 39.33 with 16 hundreds and 28 fifties
Khawaja: 114 innings - 4338 innings at 42.11 with 11 hundreds and 23 fifties

They are pretty similar, but I'd say Khawaja has done just as much hard work as Cowan considering the 5 year age gap.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By mosmosmos - 22-07-2013 19:45

[ENG]

Khawaja looks pretty talented, especially against pace. However he just can't play quality spin effectively so until he works on that part of his game, will struggle in test cricket. Cowan just looked a liability.Khawaja looks pretty talented, especially against pace. However he just can't play quality spin effectively so until he works on that part of his game, will struggle in test cricket.

Cowan just looked a liability.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 22-07-2013 20:06

[AUSNZ]

He gets nicks where others would miss the ball. He looked good against Swann in the 2nd innings and got complacent against Root who just had one of those lucky games (once the pressure was completely off).

mosmosmos wrote:

Khawaja looks pretty talented, especially against pace. However he just can't play quality spin effectively so until he works on that part of his game, will struggle in test cricket.

Cowan just looked a liability.

He gets nicks where others would miss the ball. He looked good against Swann in the 2nd innings and got complacent against Root who just had one of those lucky games (once the pressure was completely off).

Re: 2013 Ashes

By mosmosmos - 22-07-2013 20:54

[ENG]

Lol, always England lucky. You can take him out of Australia, but (well, you know how it goes) Khawaja though, does seem to be the one player who could become a decent act. Cowans record of 6 50s And only 1 conversion to 100 highlights what must be mental weakness on his part, similar to that of Watson. Hughes played brilliantly in the first innings of the first test, but can't seem to face spin, or reign himself in from flashing at it wide of off stump. Steve Smith plays with such a massive gap between bat and pad it is unbelievable, it's an awful technique for test match cricket, you've got to wonder how he gets in the team. From the bowling side it's improved, there are wicket takers, but of really enough control to bog a team down and force a wicket, and the lack of a spinner really puts the pressure on the quicks to bowl a lot of overs to get the wickets. On a serious note, now Hussey has gone and that is the last of the golden generation, which is the next series Australia are actually going to win? Aside from Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, and possibly New Zealand, who are you better than?

tosspot wrote:

He gets nicks where others would miss the ball. He looked good against Swann in the 2nd innings and got complacent against Root who just had one of those lucky games (once the pressure was completely off).

Lol, always England lucky. You can take him out of Australia, but (well, you know how it goes)

Khawaja though, does seem to be the one player who could become a decent act.

Cowans record of 6 50s And only 1 conversion to 100 highlights what must be mental weakness on his part, similar to that of Watson.

Hughes played brilliantly in the first innings of the first test, but can't seem to face spin, or reign himself in from flashing at it wide of off stump.

Steve Smith plays with such a massive gap between bat and pad it is unbelievable, it's an awful technique for test match cricket, you've got to wonder how he gets in the team.

From the bowling side it's improved, there are wicket takers, but of really enough control to bog a team down and force a wicket, and the lack of a spinner really puts the pressure on the quicks to bowl a lot of overs to get the wickets.

On a serious note, now Hussey has gone and that is the last of the golden generation, which is the next series Australia are actually going to win? Aside from Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, and possibly New Zealand, who are you better than?

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 22-07-2013 21:42

[AUSNZ]

I didn't say England were lucky - but Root had a lucky game. He's not a bowler and got 2 wickets and before that last innings he had scored 41 runs in 3 when there was at least some pressure on his batting. At the start of his last innings there was probably a little pressure and he would have been dismissed for 8 if not for the worst missed chance I've seen (keeper and 1st slip leaving a catchable ball). He's the massive weak point in your lineup but it's ignored because you're still winning. If you take every run Root has scored out of the team totals, England would still have won the matches they won. We're still better than India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan when they aren't playing on their pitches... so I guess that's something :)I didn't say England were lucky - but Root had a lucky game. He's not a bowler and got 2 wickets and before that last innings he had scored 41 runs in 3 when there was at least some pressure on his batting. At the start of his last innings there was probably a little pressure and he would have been dismissed for 8 if not for the worst missed chance I've seen (keeper and 1st slip leaving a catchable ball).
He's the massive weak point in your lineup but it's ignored because you're still winning. If you take every run Root has scored out of the team totals, England would still have won the matches they won.

We're still better than India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan when they aren't playing on their pitches... so I guess that's something :)

Re: 2013 Ashes

By theme_dreamer - 23-07-2013 00:36

Yes Khawaja has been managed absolutely terribly in the last nine months. If he isn't in the team he should have the opportunity to play at lower levels to further his game. Those stats look extremely similar, what they mask though is the fact that the first four years of Cowans' career were quite mediocre, before he had back-to-back seasons scoring big runs and averaging 50+. It took him a while but he got there because he was persistent. I am not surprised that it was taking him a while to get to grips with the step up to test cricket because that matches his first class career. I think he may still have gotten there if persisted with for another full home series but I don't think he will get that chance now. Joe Root is Englands' future superstar, even if he isn't a consistent performer yet they will persist with him until he cracks it. England have a strong team and are winning so they can afford to carry one or two guys who aren't contributing every game. Australia used to do the same thing with Michael Clarke, Shane Watson, Mitchell Johnson, etc. I would add West Indies to that list too. There is still quite a gap between the top four and the next four. I think people have forgotten very quickly that during our home test season we destroyed Sri Lanka 3-0 and should have beaten the best team in the world South Africa 2-1. Everything seemed to be going great and progressing, what on earth has happened since then we can only speculate about... I agree with most of what you say mos. The only thing I would add is that the bowling is easily good enough in my opinion, England haven't run up an extravagantly big team total against them yet. It is just the awful batting that is stopping Australia from being competitive. Sorry for ruining the Ashes [:S]

tosspot wrote:

But they keep bringing him along - he doesn't get a chance to play any cricket cos he's always on tour but never playing.

Yes Khawaja has been managed absolutely terribly in the last nine months. If he isn't in the team he should have the opportunity to play at lower levels to further his game.

tosspot wrote:

First Class stats:
Cowan: 178 innings - 6569 runs at 39.33 with 16 hundreds and 28 fifties
Khawaja: 114 innings - 4338 innings at 42.11 with 11 hundreds and 23 fifties

Those stats look extremely similar, what they mask though is the fact that the first four years of Cowans' career were quite mediocre, before he had back-to-back seasons scoring big runs and averaging 50+. It took him a while but he got there because he was persistent. I am not surprised that it was taking him a while to get to grips with the step up to test cricket because that matches his first class career. I think he may still have gotten there if persisted with for another full home series but I don't think he will get that chance now.

tosspot wrote:

I didn't say England were lucky - but Root had a lucky game. He's not a bowler and got 2 wickets and before that last innings he had scored 41 runs in 3 when there was at least some pressure on his batting. At the start of his last innings there was probably a little pressure and he would have been dismissed for 8 if not for the worst missed chance I've seen (keeper and 1st slip leaving a catchable ball).
He's the massive weak point in your lineup but it's ignored because you're still winning. If you take every run Root has scored out of the team totals, England would still have won the matches they won.

Joe Root is Englands' future superstar, even if he isn't a consistent performer yet they will persist with him until he cracks it. England have a strong team and are winning so they can afford to carry one or two guys who aren't contributing every game. Australia used to do the same thing with Michael Clarke, Shane Watson, Mitchell Johnson, etc.

tosspot wrote:

We're still better than India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan when they aren't playing on their pitches... so I guess that's something :)

I would add West Indies to that list too. There is still quite a gap between the top four and the next four. I think people have forgotten very quickly that during our home test season we destroyed Sri Lanka 3-0 and should have beaten the best team in the world South Africa 2-1. Everything seemed to be going great and progressing, what on earth has happened since then we can only speculate about...

mosmosmos wrote:

Lol, always England lucky. You can take him out of Australia, but (well, you know how it goes)

Khawaja though, does seem to be the one player who could become a decent act.

Cowans record of 6 50s And only 1 conversion to 100 highlights what must be mental weakness on his part, similar to that of Watson.

Hughes played brilliantly in the first innings of the first test, but can't seem to face spin, or reign himself in from flashing at it wide of off stump.

Steve Smith plays with such a massive gap between bat and pad it is unbelievable, it's an awful technique for test match cricket, you've got to wonder how he gets in the team.

From the bowling side it's improved, there are wicket takers, but of really enough control to bog a team down and force a wicket, and the lack of a spinner really puts the pressure on the quicks to bowl a lot of overs to get the wickets.

On a serious note, now Hussey has gone and that is the last of the golden generation, which is the next series Australia are actually going to win? Aside from Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, and possibly New Zealand, who are you better than?

I agree with most of what you say mos. The only thing I would add is that the bowling is easily good enough in my opinion, England haven't run up an extravagantly big team total against them yet. It is just the awful batting that is stopping Australia from being competitive. Sorry for ruining the Ashes :S

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 23-07-2013 09:33

[AUSNZ]

I don't think it's bad news for the team - he wasn't in good form. Hope they bring Jackson Bird in, though I think Bird would have been better at Lord's than anywhere else.

CricketAustralia wrote:

James Pattinson has been ruled out of the remainder of the ‪#‎Ashes‬ series in the UK due to a stress fracture of the lower back.

I don't think it's bad news for the team - he wasn't in good form. Hope they bring Jackson Bird in, though I think Bird would have been better at Lord's than anywhere else.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By deleted_5669342 - 25-07-2013 06:38

can;t really say that. Pattinson is the x-factor. Whenever he takes wickets, he has a big haul. And he is 2nd? highest run scorer in the australian team. But I agree, Jackson Bird should get the nod. Did anyone see Cowan in india? Best player for sure??! [of the aussies]

tosspot wrote:

I don't think it's bad news for the team - he wasn't in good form. Hope they bring Jackson Bird in, though I think Bird would have been better at Lord's than anywhere else.

can;t really say that. Pattinson is the x-factor. Whenever he takes wickets, he has a big haul. And he is 2nd? highest run scorer in the australian team.
But I agree, Jackson Bird should get the nod.

Did anyone see Cowan in india?
Best player for sure??! [of the aussies]

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 25-07-2013 08:31

[AUSNZ]

Agar, Watson and Clarke were the 3 top scorers when I looked.Agar, Watson and Clarke were the 3 top scorers when I looked.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 25-07-2013 10:19

[AUSNZ]

Warner got 193 for Australia A in South Africa - he'll be back for the 3rd test for sure now.Warner got 193 for Australia A in South Africa - he'll be back for the 3rd test for sure now.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By theme_dreamer - 25-07-2013 12:55

He was unspectacular, but he certainly put the highest price on his wicket. Without a doubt! The only question is where will they play him? I have a feeling that they will unleash a Watson/Warner opening partnership and gamble on them spanking 300 in the opening session of the game. It's hard to see any other way we could win or even compete in the next test. That would be yet another cruel twist for Chris Rogers cricket career...

brendanzh wrote:

Did anyone see Cowan in india?
Best player for sure??! [of the aussies]

He was unspectacular, but he certainly put the highest price on his wicket.

tosspot wrote:

Warner got 193 for Australia A in South Africa - he'll be back for the 3rd test for sure now.

Without a doubt! The only question is where will they play him? I have a feeling that they will unleash a Watson/Warner opening partnership and gamble on them spanking 300 in the opening session of the game. It's hard to see any other way we could win or even compete in the next test. That would be yet another cruel twist for Chris Rogers cricket career...

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 25-07-2013 13:10

[AUSNZ]

Chris Rogers is 35 and Warner is 26, so I think it's more important to get Warner in as I truly believe he is a better talent and exactly what we need (like a new Hayden). But... I doubt that will happen. He will come in and bat number 6, which won't help us at all as he'll probably come in at 4/100 or less and be under pressure to stay in. If he goes in first (with Watson), he can at least play naturally and that's when he's at his best. Because being 1/20 from 2 overs after being positive is better than 1/20 after 12 overs.

theme_dreamer wrote:

He was unspectacular, but he certainly put the highest price on his wicket.

Without a doubt! The only question is where will they play him? I have a feeling that they will unleash a Watson/Warner opening partnership and gamble on them spanking 300 in the opening session of the game. It's hard to see any other way we could win or even compete in the next test. That would be yet another cruel twist for Chris Rogers cricket career...

Chris Rogers is 35 and Warner is 26, so I think it's more important to get Warner in as I truly believe he is a better talent and exactly what we need (like a new Hayden).

But... I doubt that will happen. He will come in and bat number 6, which won't help us at all as he'll probably come in at 4/100 or less and be under pressure to stay in. If he goes in first (with Watson), he can at least play naturally and that's when he's at his best. Because being 1/20 from 2 overs after being positive is better than 1/20 after 12 overs.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By deleted_5669342 - 25-07-2013 14:20

Hughes should open as he does his best work there. Imagine Warner playing without a swinging ball [destructive]. If Chris Rogers were dropped, yes, it would be a cruel twist to his test career, but he's been dismissed cheaply in his test innings. My money is definitely on Rogers losing his place, aswell as Haddin losing his place aswell due to his poor keeping in the 2nd test.Hughes should open as he does his best work there. Imagine Warner playing without a swinging ball [destructive].
If Chris Rogers were dropped, yes, it would be a cruel twist to his test career, but he's been dismissed cheaply in his test innings.
My money is definitely on Rogers losing his place, aswell as Haddin losing his place aswell due to his poor keeping in the 2nd test.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 25-07-2013 14:47

[AUSNZ]

Remember that there are only about 10-20 overs when England don't swing the ball... they reverse swing it early.

brendanzh wrote:

Hughes should open as he does his best work there. Imagine Warner playing without a swinging ball [destructive].
If Chris Rogers were dropped, yes, it would be a cruel twist to his test career, but he's been dismissed cheaply in his test innings.
My money is definitely on Rogers losing his place, aswell as Haddin losing his place aswell due to his poor keeping in the 2nd test.

Remember that there are only about 10-20 overs when England don't swing the ball... they reverse swing it early.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By theme_dreamer - 26-07-2013 00:52

I did have a rant about that kind of thing a few days ago, picking potential over performance (dropping a guy with 19,000 first class runs for someone who can switch hit for six). The reality is that Rogers is 35 or 36 though, he was only really going to play this series and maybe the next one anyway, and since he is not setting the world on fire better to leave him out then someone who has a longer future ahead of them. Poor guy though, worked his ass off and dreamed of playing for Australia his whole career, given a taste of it and then shafted (possibly twice)! [:S] Opening with Hughes and Watson, Khawaja three, Warner four, Clarke five, it certainly looks interesting on paper! Warner did make his 196 batting at four...

tosspot wrote:

Chris Rogers is 35 and Warner is 26, so I think it's more important to get Warner in as I truly believe he is a better talent and exactly what we need (like a new Hayden).

I did have a rant about that kind of thing a few days ago, picking potential over performance (dropping a guy with 19,000 first class runs for someone who can switch hit for six). The reality is that Rogers is 35 or 36 though, he was only really going to play this series and maybe the next one anyway, and since he is not setting the world on fire better to leave him out then someone who has a longer future ahead of them.

Poor guy though, worked his ass off and dreamed of playing for Australia his whole career, given a taste of it and then shafted (possibly twice)! :S

brendanzh wrote:

Hughes should open as he does his best work there. Imagine Warner playing without a swinging ball [destructive].

Opening with Hughes and Watson, Khawaja three, Warner four, Clarke five, it certainly looks interesting on paper! Warner did make his 196 batting at four...

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 26-07-2013 08:18

[AUSNZ]

I like that... 6 is too low, but that lineup looks decent. I wouldn't mind Wade at 6 then.I like that... 6 is too low, but that lineup looks decent. I wouldn't mind Wade at 6 then.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By damo11 - 26-07-2013 19:35

[AUSNZ]

Warner needs to open for mine. Will be interesting to see how many changes actually happen.Warner needs to open for mine. Will be interesting to see how many changes actually happen.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By damo11 - 26-07-2013 19:36

[AUSNZ]

Get Glenn Maxwell in too :)Get Glenn Maxwell in too :)

Re: 2013 Ashes

By tosspot - 26-07-2013 21:35

[AUSNZ]

After day 1 of the tour match against Sussez we are 5/354 EJM Cowan* c Taylor b Hatchett 66 off 112 PJ Hughes c †Jackson b Hatchett 84 off 118 UT Khawaja c Jordan b Panesar 40 off 75 SPD Smith not out 98 off 155 MS Wade† c Liddle b Panesar 0 off 6 JP Faulkner b Panesar 48 off 85 AC Agar not out 0 off 6 Obviously the bowling attack isn't England's but it's good time spent in the middle for some.After day 1 of the tour match against Sussez we are 5/354

EJM Cowan* c Taylor b Hatchett 66 off 112
PJ Hughes c †Jackson b Hatchett 84 off 118
UT Khawaja c Jordan b Panesar 40 off 75
SPD Smith not out 98 off 155
MS Wade† c Liddle b Panesar 0 off 6
JP Faulkner b Panesar 48 off 85
AC Agar not out 0 off 6

Obviously the bowling attack isn't England's but it's good time spent in the middle for some.

Re: 2013 Ashes

By deleted_5669342 - 27-07-2013 00:27

Faulkner was good. Interesting to see how he goes with the ballFaulkner was good. Interesting to see how he goes with the ball

Re: 2013 Ashes

By theme_dreamer - 27-07-2013 01:20

The openers experienced death by Hatchett. It will be interesting to see if they can recover from that. Interesting that Rogers was rested from this match, that indicates he is already penciled in for the next test. Hughes and Smith both got scores to keep their place; will Khawaja be dropped again? Since everything depends on this one match we can forget about Wade. Agar appears to have done enough to hold his position as lower order batsman... I mean spinner...

tosspot wrote:

After day 1 of the tour match against Sussez we are 5/354

EJM Cowan* c Taylor b Hatchett 66 off 112
PJ Hughes c †Jackson b Hatchett 84 off 118
UT Khawaja c Jordan b Panesar 40 off 75
SPD Smith not out 98 off 155
MS Wade† c Liddle b Panesar 0 off 6
JP Faulkner b Panesar 48 off 85
AC Agar not out 0 off 6

The openers experienced death by Hatchett. It will be interesting to see if they can recover from that.

Interesting that Rogers was rested from this match, that indicates he is already penciled in for the next test. Hughes and Smith both got scores to keep their place; will Khawaja be dropped again?

Since everything depends on this one match we can forget about Wade. Agar appears to have done enough to hold his position as lower order batsman... I mean spinner...

Re: 2013 Ashes

By theme_dreamer - 27-07-2013 02:45

An update from the match Warner and Maxwell scored centuries in: South Africa A have followed that by cracking 7-614. It's a road. We can't read anything into it... Fawad Ahmed 3-177 off 42 overs.An update from the match Warner and Maxwell scored centuries in: South Africa A have followed that by cracking 7-614. It's a road. We can't read anything into it...

Fawad Ahmed 3-177 off 42 overs.

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