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26-06-2019 03:44
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Season 70 · Week 12 · Day 79
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The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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The inconsistency of this game has brought me to the conclusion, this next season will probably be my last one. I recently won a friendly league, with only 1 lost game against top league teams from France, Spain, Poland and Romania. My team scored 123 times, and let in 22 goals in 30 matches. And then what happens next you might ask? Well... I lost against division 5 Argentina in Headquarters Cup (last 64). My player values are way waaaay higher than the opponents team, and we play identical tactics. Of course, games where you lose against weaker team should occur but the way it's been going on the last 2-3 seasons, I think it's about time to call it quits. I probably lost to worse teams in 90% of all the official cups last season. I would like to point out: Managerzone the last 10 years has been the only game worth playing for me, as I am not a big gamer at all. Producing my own youth, and making up tactics, should be enough for you guys to keep supporting this wonderful online game. For me though, I've come to the end of the line, and it's with sadness I am about to leave. I will probably play some games into the new season, since we're already about to start. But as mentioned: I have no more patience. I know there has been other threads pointing out the same issues, and hopefully crew will take them under consideration. Player skills and time spent making logical tweaks to your tactics should be awarded in a much more prevalent way than now. Another example of how time spent tweaking a tactic is not rewarded: Opponent plays short passing through the middle, you play a thight 3-3 in the back... you have a better team, still not awarded. Relegated to division 3 (WL).
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Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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2018, game of the year: https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1045925664

This tactic has been gold, and suddenly... 0-4. Consistent? No.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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gorglbnlgnag wrote:
2018, game of the year: https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1045925664

This tactic has been gold, and suddenly... 0-4. Consistent? No.


First he takes lead 0-1 (seems like normal), then your player strikes own goal. Then your opponent uses 3 substitutions - gets 3 fresh players in and scores 2 more goals.

Personally, I say, in reality, if all players are too tightly set up on field, they are blocking own view/paths and tactics get messed up (players have their roles, they defend, they pass balls, they score; they keep eye on their "targets", they need to spread out opponents defenses; they improvise).

Value difference is not main deal, fine you have players more valuable (and many with much higher salaries), but why you need that many "bodyguards" around star-players, then? Give them more space or freedom to control the game (opponent players waste more energy on them).
Your opponent has bit older players = 1 season more experience on field.

Around 500-700k... 100k player value difference is not that sure thing - example - if I run team with all 700k values, and opponent has 600k, but he does his tactics better, I still lose.

If it will be all about player values, then where is the fun? Why we need leagues/cups, we just do math and give trophies to teams who have most valuable teams? :)
Edited: 07-01-2019 22:43
Total edits: 2

Beantwortet: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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this is sad - because you re right. im also not the guy whos complaining around in the forum but i feel like this game is about to die. the other topic "downfall of MZ" is full of well considered critics about this game, written by the most important people - the ones who love this manager game. but it seems as nobody really cares about that opinions...

if i compare managerzone to other economies or businesses: im sorry but it looks like really a lot is going wrong since a while in here. only dying companies are doing stuff as i can see here. the most important people in here, yes still the users, are given the feeling of not being noticed.
why are the users not worth of a proper report of whats going on. why are there no answers about problems that occupy people in here? why is the stuff not responding to constructive criticism and suggestions for improvement? and im not speaking about a simple 5 minute forum post...
if such a big amout of people are upset about things that are going wrong in here: why are the responsible people unable to communicate fair with the users?
cmon... arent the users worth some days working in a comprehensive article to give information about their opinion. maybe whats possible to change, whats the reason why not and so on...
it doesent happen. and I'm afraid it's never gonna happen and since theyre not really communicating we re never know why

this is whats making me thinking like you and about to leave this game. i ll give it a season or two to go but sorry im not willing to continue playing with the dead.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[FLUSA]
President
gorglbnlgnag wrote:
I know there has been other threads pointing out the same issues, and hopefully crew will take them under consideration.


Actually the other thread was to complain about losing against game play, so your complain is basically the opposite as the two games you lost you where outshot by 13 to 7 and 16 to 5, maybe if you won the other two guys would be chiming on the other thread to complain they lost against play....

Lately it just seems that everyone complains when results don't go their way and for the record, I don't like this SIM and I really think is time for a dramatic change so there's something new to explore, new tactics to test, something that brings a bit of excitement as I think after 7 years of playing with this SIM (or subtle variations), there's nothing new to try out with this SIM.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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@darkline: The issue with SOT not correlating with number og goals scored, we all know about that one. The biggest problem with the SIM though, as I see it: You can play smart tactics, that are tweaked to take out short passing or wing and they will work perfectly well in friendly leagues and in instant games. But then suddenly and without warning, your team will be totally humiliated! I can only speak from my own experiences: I have played instant games and friendly league games against number 2 from Belgium, and number 3 from Romania. I have played top league teams from Poland, and I have consistently won with twice as many shots on goal. I felt very confident with my new team, and I still had one important cup game to play. In this game; my team actually managed to lose 2-4. No...wait! I was totally smashed against a team from level 5 Argentina. I beat Draconia, one of the best teams in ManagerZone, and then suddenly 8-16 shots? Against division 5? What happened? No... Seriously?

Tactics suddenly die, and without warning. It has been going on for 2 or 3 seasons now. How do we stop tactics from "dying"? Do we need to know some secret spells? Magical tricks? There is no consistency.

@samooo: Well written sir. The inconsistency of the simulator is too great to be ignored. And there is no longer any updates from crew. What are they working on? Why are tactics suddenly "collapsing" and/or "dying"? Do we need to know black magics to make results more consistent?

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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@gorglbnlgnag

just take a break
you can even sell up and have only a "skeleton crew" for a team
let the money roll in and pop up once in a while to not let your team go inactive and to check if a new SIM is out

then come back for a...ermm...a comeback :)

yes the SIM is not good
yes they introduced a weird random element for the goalkeepers (could be for everything else but it's mainly in the goalkeepers ability that it get's noticed)
yes they're running out of ideas to revamp the game....
in the end they will probably introduce something in the SIM that it will probably make it less random than it is now (at least we can only hope that it will do so)

again, I must stress out (imo at least) that MZ is a game that tries to give every player a "fair" chance at winning. Since there's no server reset or something similar the only thing that can be done to give equal chances to every active manager (because of the way that this game is structured) is to have a certain random amount in the SIM/result.

MZ is not for the ultra competitive users that want to dominate in their game. You can always try to be number one, but the game will "punish" you and teach you "humility"

The better you become (you and your team) the more you will start to get annoyed
The random is and always was present...It's just easier to be noticed when you are the better team and you get negatively affected by it

I feel you (been there, done that etc etc) and since there's nothing for me to do than wait for a better sim, I have decided to take the "sunday league manager" approach

C'est la vie...

(waiting for aimi to take over this thread)

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[FLUSA]
President
You're overthinking it, sometimes a Div 5 team is in Div 5 because he was inactive for a while, he's restructuring or just decided to splash money on new players, just going by results, that div 5 team beat mikelony's A.D. Alcorcón on the previous game and also he recently beat 4-0 Swedish div 1.1 Ninjas FK who's usually a though opponent, so the fact he's in Div 5 is pretty much irrelevant... maybe his team is weaker than yours but probably not as much as you're presuming him to be

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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@darkline
Hopefully you can see this table:
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=friendlyseries&sub=standings&fsid=657895

My team lost only 1 game in the last edition of YNWA (friendly league), 83 points. RealCipri from Romania got 75, and next on the list is Liverpool (also Top League Romania), 69 points. Other teams like Alcorcon had 49 points. In all my games I at least twice as many shots. Even against REALcipri.

8-16 shots against division 5. Yes, a very good team from Argentina... but THAT was almost beyond belief. What happened to 83 points? What happened to twice as many shots against bronze winner from Romania? Did my players decide not to run? I can make at least 20 examples of games being lost the same way. But this last one... the prime example, the prime example of something that is not working properly.

@aldebaran
We all hope for better times. The "random"-factor is probably the same thing as I am referring to. For me it seems like tactics are "dying" or "collapsing". Only a few couple of the very best teams seem to know how to stay consistent.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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But then again... even the best have been struggling.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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@raamatupood: Of course values shouldn't matter as a decisive factor in it self. But a big gap in values does mean something in the end. Especially if you look at values, division and recent results. All those factors should tell you: My team is top league quality.

That being said... playing a tight tactic seem to have some disadvantages, as you are mentioning. I am totally buying into that. But why does it have to be like that? Why should we play a wide tactic against attackers through the middle? Does that make sense? And again... the consistency is totally out of place. The tight defense does work like magic one day, and the next: totally garbage! Same tactics, same players, and you have no idea what happened. That's the whole point of this thread, there is no red line.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[FLUSA]
President
gorglbnlgnag wrote:
@darkline
Hopefully you can see this table:
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=friendlyseries&sub=standings&fsid=657895

My team lost only 1 game in the last edition of YNWA (friendly league), 83 points. RealCipri from Romania got 75, and next on the list is Liverpool (also Top League Romania), 69 points. Other teams like Alcorcon had 49 points. In all my games I at least twice as many shots. Even against REALcipri.


It's a friendly league so it's hard to compare FLs to official cups, some people just don't pay attention to friendly leagues (myself included), a while ago I won a Champions Cup and on that same season I probably didn't make top 5 on that FL because I was doing the autopilot thing and being totally predictable.

Then again, sometimes you lose unfair games on cups, like everyone I lost my fair share of really unfair games, sometimes you can get a league or cup in which your team seems to play poorer or better than usual, but when a team outshots your own 2 or 3 to 1, it's usually because there's something else at play, like tactics or understimating your opponent.....

btw, I cloned that short passing tactic your opponent used for a scout game but unfortunately your tactic was very different on your last league game, despite that and the fact that my team isn't really a short passing team, I managed to get an underserved 3-1 win on the scout game so go figure... maybe that tactic is sort of your achilles heel or maybe there's something else worth studying.

In any case and like I said, I'm not a fan of the SIM and I had my fair share of upsets, but there's one thing that someone said once and it got stuck on my mind, if the SIM was as random as everyone says, then we wouldn't see the same teams usually win the big trophies or league tournaments.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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gorglbnlgnag wrote:
2018, game of the year: https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1045925664

This tactic has been gold, and suddenly... 0-4. Consistent? No.


The team in this match is in Div1.2 in Argentina, which is probably more competitive than France, Spain, Norway, US and other main divisions.
Value of the teams are not crazy different and I see a lot of players valued above USD1.4 Mi that aren't that great. For example, my only two players valued over USD1.4Mi are not that great and are not starters...

I agree that the SIM is not that great, but in a game like MZ you need some sort of aleatory factor in the SIM.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[TDZ]
President
I am a bit reluctant to give advises to rivals, but I will share my opinion regardless. Maybe it will result in an interesting league in S69..

I would never use player value as an indicator, as it is very inaccurate. It was probably coded in 2001/2002, and is one of the core elements in this game which for some strange reason is left untouched year after year.

Neither would I use a FL as a guidance for what level you are at. As darkline also wrote, people tend to take these games less serious (I do aswell). You can get a lot of victories for free by countering opposition in these games.

WL is the very best indication of what level you are currently at. The fact that you got relegated to 3rd division is an indication that your team is not up there with the best. It doesn't help to get the tactics right if you are trailing too far behind your opposition in quality. Your team isn't bad, but you shouldn't expect to consistently make it into the latter rounds of cup competitions.



I would say that this is a risky variant (yellow). It is used a lot at youth level, but at senior level it is rather unstable. I agree that It looks good on paper against spear attack, but sometimes theory and (virtual) reality is different. And occasionally it will end up with a red card for your last defender. Basically everytime he conducts a tackle, it will be red if it is a foul. That is the reason you received a red card against me in the league last season. I haven't looked too far into it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the defenders are "all over the place". Nothing is holding them in place, so to speak. 3-2 defense at senior level is more sturdy, but then you are really effed if your opponent is using wings.

In your 2-4 defeat yesterday, my feeling is that you lost to a team which is below you in quality. I ran a couple of scout matches against him, and wasn't impressed (8-0 and 5-1, where the latter was the worst possible tactic I could have played against his stick-variant). He might have received some boost against you, as his tackling success was above 60% (which is extreme). But if your team would be a little bit better, you would edge out a SOT advantage even on an off-day. And if your team would be vastly superior to such teams, you would hardly ever get simmed either.

You basically say that the rock-paper-scissor part of this game doesn't work. I disagree. This is actually something I am happy with in this game. But it isn't as straightforward as you might think. My problem with the simulator is that there are too many games where the correlation between SOT and result is next to non-existent, which gives users the feeling of being robbed despite getting the tactic right.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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@hanzinho

Well, season 68 was pretty eventful, I think even as competitors, we would both like another season like that.
And you are making some fair points in your post. In my post to @raamatupood, I wrote:

"... playing a tight tactic seem to have some disadvantages, as you are mentioning. I am totally buying into that. But why does it have to be like that? Why should we play a wide tactic against attackers through the middle? Does that make sense? And again... the consistency is totally out of place. The tight defense does work like magic one day, and the next: totally garbage! Same tactics, same players, and you have no idea what happened. That's the whole point of this thread, there is no red line".

My last few sentences brings out the whole essence of my concern. One day, you think you have found the golden ticket, and the next: Did that just happen? My tight 3-3 tactic did work perfectly well in maybe 5 to 10 matches, and then suddenly the whole roof came tumbling down. Metaphorically speaking, you are sitting in the living room, watching TV and wondering: Wasn't that a perfectly good roof? Why did it just land on my head?

Maybe I am buying too much into that whole FL-thing, but tactics being inconsistent, it's been like that for two whole seasons. And other managers are clearly stating the same thing. They are either calling it "random"-factor, or something else. Maybe it's all about quality of the players in the end, maybe it's all about experience. I do have a few players with 8 and 9 experience. And as you are clearly stating: If some skills are lacking, tactics won't help you much, no matter how good or well thought-out the tactic is. I think if that is the case, it's a bit sad really. A good tactic, IS a good tactic in the end. We want mangers who clearly make good tactical choices, tactical choices that makes sense, and not someone who plays tactics by default because his or her team is "the best". Tactics should matter, and a good anti-short tactic should not suddenly "collapse" or "die".

My 2-4 defeat was totally out of place, and I did beat him in instant games as well, 4-0 and 5-0. So... what happened in Headquarters Cup? I guess I will never know. Lets hope for a killer season 69! May the best team, and the best tactics win the Eliteserie.

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I really need to hope for some awesome tactics, that won't fail me >_<

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[TDZ]
President
Well, if the first league game is any indication, then it will be an "eventful" league season :D

My world class striker hitting the crossbar 8(!) times and managing to score a single goal against an utter crap team. Pirlo wouldn't stand a chance in a crossbar competition against him. You would think that the fact that my striker has 10 in PI would mean that he would be capable of adjusting his aim, atleast after the first 5 headers hit the crossbar... Apparently no. Highlight came around the 70 minute mark when my winger decided to run the wrong way through the entire pitch and cross the ball into my own box instead.

I did the mistake of watching this game (as entertainment). Usually I only watch game as a way of analyzing (5x speed) what was going on after having seen the result beforehand. The game is just unwatchable with this simulator. If I was a new manager I would go "WTF" approximately 27 times per game. It has very little resemblance to football.

gorglbnlgnag wrote:
Why should we play a wide tactic against attackers through the middle? Does that make sense? And again... the consistency is totally out of place. The tight defense does work like magic one day, and the next: totally garbage! Same tactics, same players, and you have no idea what happened. That's the whole point of this thread, there is no red line".

You don't have to play a wide defense, it depends on a lot of factors. But in my own experience, that 3-3 variant you use, has its downsides.

I don't feel the consistency is out of place, SOT wise. Each game is different. The tactics might be the same, but the teams are not. It is not like if tactic A beats tactic B when faced against Team Z, then tactic A beats tactic B when faced against Team Y aswell, even if these teams are at the same level in quality and have identical tactics. Maybe team Z have his best defenders in fullback position, while Team Y have his best defenders places in the central defense and etc. etc. etc.

I feel the game is quite stable in the fact that I can pretty much predict how SOT will go against various opponents. Sometimes I can be surprised, but then I am usually able to find the culprit that resulted in the deviation.

gorglbnlgnag wrote:
And as you are clearly stating: If some skills are lacking, tactics won't help you much, no matter how good or well thought-out the tactic is. I think if that is the case, it's a bit sad really. A good tactic, IS a good tactic in the end. We want mangers who clearly make good tactical choices, tactical choices that makes sense, and not someone who plays tactics by default because his or her team is "the best".

I think the balance is good. Tactics matters a lot. Too often it is nullified by the randomness of the goalkeepers though. One game you have mighty Lev Yashin guarding your goal, the next you have a concussed Karius. That is the real problem in my opinion.

With the correct tactic you can edge out a SOT advantage against teams which are better than you, and I feel the range here is good. You can't beat a team which is vastly superior to your own, regardless of tactic, and I believe it would be unfair if you could. If you could, then it would sort of nullify all other aspects of the game (training, transfers, team-building etc.)

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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I had to buy-sell some players... Because of new players I had to modify tactics.

I am lazy manager (currently), I don't do homework (I should) before cup/league games (maybe I lie about that).
Anyways... Every time I get some "remarkable" changes to team, I modify a bit tactics. I used 10+ credits yesterday against stronger team to get "best" (satisfying) solution. I know it is easy to be countered, but is now better before scout matches. Can't play with one tactics whole two seasons, if losing to weaker teams, then something is not right.


About SIM: Yes, we could make Sim, that we can micro-manage, so we can give every player roles : field ranges (tricky/key areas), different aggression per player, roles to "close" some opponent's players and so on ....... But the game goes too complex then, many people can't make it and they start to lose more games than before. Also then again SIM does new kind of mistakes, is unfair for sure sometimes, makes players do stupid things or "hackers" learn how to fool micro-managed SIM ......... and again more problems.......

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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@hanz

The way the games are being presented with multiple wasted chances, crossbars, supermen goalies and so forth, it's a whole chapter on it's own. I think we can all live with that for as long as tactics stay consistent, and for as long as there is a clear line between what is a good and a poor tactic in different scenarios and/or situations. A good anti-short tactic, will be a good anti-short tactic, and it won't suddenly collapse. Of course: a good anti-short tactic can lose against a less skilled team, who's also playing through the middle. But the thing is: It SHOULDN'T happen 75% of the time. It's like ManagerZone is telling you: "You played this tactic 5 times now, it won't work anymore" That's absolutely pathetic. Why would the same tactic work like magic in 5 FL-games, and then suddenly "die". That being said: Maybe in some circumstances the opponent has had a strong player X in the right position, and instead of playing "safe", the main focus should have been: avoid player x. Every team ISdifferent, and for that reason it's hard to say whether I've been simmed 150 times or not.

Compared to the actions of your 10 PI attacker, your winger can't be smarter than 9 PI. Oh! The irony! It's pretty funny when these things happen, and you still win the game.
It's a lot worse when your players aren't making any obvious mistakes, and you are still losing, badly.

The 3-3 tactic has it's downsides, I guess we all agree on that. It's not very good against wing in the first place, but also: the def mid's is locked into positions. I am about to scrap this one, as the consistency here is the worst of all. 6-1 against top league teams, and then 0-4 against division 5. With results like these, it's hard to see anything making sense at all.

@raamatupood

Now try to notice whether your new tactic will stay consistent or not.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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why should a tactic stay consistent?

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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@aldebaran

I will repeat myself:

I think there should be "a clear line between what is a good and a poor tactic in different scenarios and/or situations. A good anti-short tactic, will be a good anti-short tactic, and it won't suddenly collapse. Of course: a good anti-short tactic can lose against a less skilled team, who's also playing through the middle. But the thing is: It shouldn't happen 75% of the time. It's like ManagerZone is telling you: "You played this tactic 5 times now, it won't work anymore" That's absolutely pathetic".

There must be some sort of consistency... if not: what's the point of tactics at all? We are not playing bingo here.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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ask for consistency when you play the same tactic setup against a team that plays with a certain tactic setup

that's what I'm talking about

you can't ask for consistency when you play a game that

a) has hidden random factors in it
b) the opponent team is evolving (and so is yours)
c) even a different positioning of a player by a few pixels can cause unicorns to appear in your dreams (at least that's what some people said that happened)
d) I could add more but I should stop here, because you get what I'm trying to say...

asking for consistency in MZ, is like expecting the weather patterns to behave the same like they did 100 years ago with all the human activity on this planet (and still deny that the climate is changing)

again, you can't have any form of consistency in MZ (or in any online game of this kind) because it will get boring and the longer the user has been in the game, the more advantages (economical) will have

the only problem with MZ is that its inconsistency is visible(viewable) by the user!

the only thing they need to do is hide it from plain sight!

if you could not see your top tier striker hit the post 10 times in each game
or your winger forgetting which side he's supposed to attack and cross
then you would simply be cursing your bad luck and still having fun with MZ

there are lots of games out there that have high random factors skillfully masked
and in fact their random modifiers are so high that they make an almost certain die roll fail over 50% of the time

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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This is hilarious. Although I feel your pain, gorgshdajkhfhsd, I must say the Norwegians just love to complain. Sorry, I meant to say, Norvegians.

What's even more hilarious, is that two different complainers can't even agree what to complain about.

I recently asked another respectable Norv, his user does or doesn't rhyme with manekaster, the following:

aemi: Are you guys planning to Make Norway great again?
kasterguy: Yes, and we'll build a wall along the Swedish border and make crew pay for it.


Proof that it's about the Sweds.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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I got draw 2-2 with new tactics. I am fine with that result.
I had chance to win, because at 29th minute my defender got red card.

SIM was fair, because opponent was stronger, but maybe inactive (blank transfer history, youths badly trained).
If I would lack players, now I am forced to purchase new defender for next game or use youth.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[TDZ]
President
gorglbnlgnag wrote:
The way the games are being presented with multiple wasted chances, crossbars, supermen goalies and so forth, it's a whole chapter on it's own. I think we can all live with that for as long as tactics stay consistent, and for as long as there is a clear line between what is a good and a poor tactic in different scenarios and/or situations. A good anti-short tactic, will be a good anti-short tactic, and it won't suddenly collapse.

Sure, those of us who still pay and play this game, has accepted the game as is. But I would like to see MZ grow, and that is unlikely to happen when matches has very low resemblance of football.

When I started playing back in 2003, it atleast looked like football. There was absurd tactics like meat-wall and such, but there was atleast not 30 one-on-ones per game.. Defenders defended. It is frustrating to see all the missed opportunities, but it is equally frustrating to see how your defenders run around like a bunch of headless chickens.

I don't see tactics collapse the way you illustrate. If a tactic doesn't work, it is because the opponent had a better tactic, better players, or had luck on his side. I have played the exact same tactic at youth level for 4-5 seasons now, and it is showing no signs of fading away. Also like aldebran pointed out, there are hidden stuff which also influences the performance of your players. For example, I am convinced that selling a few key players will disrupt the "harmony" in the squad. Recently I sold two key players, and my team is performing worse as a result. It is like this every start of a new season, as I like to sell and buy players during the season break. I think you can also confirm this, because the results you experienced after selling a couple of players last season, was crazy. At one point you were 4 pts ahead of me, and you had only easy games left. Yet you finished 9 pts behind.

I think you are viewing the situation with a clouded vision due to your success in a FL competition, and end up comparing apples with oranges. Also, scout matches are something of its own. They should not be viewed as a blueprint of anything, but more of a guidance as to which tactic is optimal to use come match day (given the opponent doesn't switch tactic).

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@aemi:

The explanation is easy: In Norway we have awful food! Have you ever heard of this dish called "rakfisk"? It's basically fish that has been salted and fermented for up to a year, and then it's eaten without being cooked. Now, why do you think Norwegians like to complain?

@hanz

Even if it's just a presentation, and has nothing to do with the calculations and the outcomes of the games in themselves, we would all like a smoother and more football-like 2D/3D. New users probably have no idea what's going on with the current 3D. 2D is not much better, especially with 3 x speed and short passing. Priority 1 for me though, is: Make the tactics just a little more consistent and/or reliable (in the lack of better words). An example: Tactic X works perfectly well against tactic Y, because it stops the players in tactic Y from running through the middle. And also Tactic X plays on the outside of tactic Y's defense. Tactic X has all the players in the right positions. This should then apply for both FL-games, and official cups. What I have been experiencing is: Tacic X suddenly collapse, die, call it whatever you want. Even if you still seem to have the players in the right positions. This might be what aldebaran referred to as "random-factor". So basically I have lots of bad luck, or... maybe I just need more experience or speed. I still keep looking for an explanation to this phenomenon.

Selling my goalkeeper and replacing him with a new one, 3 rounds from finishing, that was a terrible idea in the first place. Losing the title was moslt down to this terrible idea. So yeah, Some games and some losses can be explained, while others make no sense at all.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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One of the beauties of mz is that you simply don't have tactic x/y/z.

You have tactics that can be based on X and have up to 4 or 5 working variations that can behave differently to your opponents tactics/variations

Even if this is due to a random modifier or it simply works as it is meant to be, it's a good thing and a step forward than the tactics that we used to have some seasons ago
(2 working formations that we all tried to copy perfectly down to the last pixel (placement of players on the grid)

if > of ; us > is ; tht > that ; fornations > formations
Made edits, don't curse Androids ^^ // raamatupood.
Edited: 11-01-2019 09:25
Total edits: 4

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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How can you call a 15 years game inconsistent?

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[AUS]
President
I relate MZ to Poker. Yeh there is a luck factor but at the end of the day the tactically sound managers rise to the top in the end. Just like when people say Poker is luck. Well, how come the same guys are always making the final table?

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[TDZ]
President
This is an example of inconsistency:



My only question is, why stop at 0-2? Why not 0-3 or even better, 0-4 while you are at it.

chucky06 wrote:
I relate MZ to Poker. Yeh there is a luck factor but at the end of the day the tactically sound managers rise to the top in the end. Just like when people say Poker is luck. Well, how come the same guys are always making the final table?

Poker is more about skills than MZ. If Poker is 70% skill and 30% luck, then MZ is closer to 30% skill and 70% luck. Hence why its usually different teams each time an international cup is entering the final 16. In Keepers cup, only 2 of the last 16 are teams from the WL Top Division. Luckily I avoided a simming there, and won 6-1. But in the QF of Headjob Linköping I lost 0-2 despite winning SOT 25-4.

In cup competitions you get knocked out as soon as you get simmed. At a poker table, it usually takes more than one hand of bad luck to get thrown out of a tournament. Hence why the top poker players tend to make it to the final table, and in MZ they don't.

League is more fair than cups, since you have 22 games to divide luck. But even there you can potentially get relegated despite dominating 91% of the matches. In what other game can this happen? Name me one.

In other words, it is not a good comparison in my opinion, although I do understand where you are coming from. I have heard that analogy for about 13-14 years, first time by the first ever HMA in this game (he was awful by the way). It is as accurate as claiming the simulator is the same for everybody.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[AUS]
President
I did say I relate it to poker, not that it’s exactly like it.. not many other sports have a definite “luck” factor

The more you have to lose in MZ the more you are in a position to be simmed. E.g. Cups matches.

2 from 16 in the final 16 from WL is probably on par. You can manipulate statistics to make them whatever you want. That doesn’t show how each team that didn’t make the final 16 was knocked out along the way. Did they get their tactics wrong, came up against a team very close to them who played better on the day or if they indeed did get simmed?

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[TDZ]
President
But it doesn't even resemble poker the slightest, hence my reaction, perhaps with the exception that you can play both online. I just cringe everytime there is a comparison between the two. Its not even comparing apples and oranges. It is like comparing a bowling ball with a tree.

If I were to look for an analogy, then the pre-match phase of finding the proper tactics is similar to researching and finding the proper opening in a Chess match by studying what your opponent like to play. However, in a Chess match it is still skills that determine the outcome of the game after both players are outside of their preparations.

But after the opening preparations in MZ (setting the proper tactic) the game then goes from being a battle of brain vs. brain to becoming a game of chance. To a large degree.

This Chess analogy (openings) is only valid when facing opponents that are within your range, quality wise. If you face off against a team that is significantly below or above you in quality, there is no amount of preparations that is going to change anything, except what margin you win or lose by.

The statement that there is always the same people around the final table on MZ.. Well lets have a look at that. Lets say QF in int. official cups is the equivalent of the final table at a poker tournament. We basically assume the bowling ball is atleast made out of hard wood.

Data selection is from S67 and S68. A wider scope would be unfair.

Data is from these 14 cups:
Keepers Cup - S68
Season Break Cup - S68
Defenders Cup - S68
Winter Cup - 2018
Tour of Tours - Season 67
Endurance Cup - S68
Football Mania Cup 2018
17th Anniversary Cup
Season Break Cup - S67
Keepers Cup - S67
Defenders Cup - S67
Autumn Cup - 2018
Endurance Cup - S67
Victory Cup 2018



So we are looking at 112 QF spots in total. These were filled by 77(!) different teams. And the winners of these 14 cups was divided between 13 different teams. Only Quxing managed a double. Crew don't want any teams to dominate, hence they have coded the simulator to prevent this from happening. They could have done it more subtle, but instead they just make the performance of goalies super random. The GK that shut down my team single-handed in a Prized QF yesterday, saved 25 out of 25 shots. Are we playing NHL? Yet my GK conceded 2 out of 4 shots.

Here are the Cup matches were I was knocked out in these 13 cups (I won the 14th).
25-16 = 3-4
18-9 = 1-2
16-14 = 1-2 (perfectly fine with this)
22-6 = 1-2
10-20 = 1-2 (finally a fair defeat)
25-15 = 1-2
21-19 = 1-4 (perfectly fine with this)
21-8 = 0-2
13-9 = 1-2 (no problem)
18-12 = 1-3 (no biggie)
A couple of the cup competitions had no longer any stats available, and in one Cup (Keepers Cup, we are still in QF and I am not knocked out yet).

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[AUS]
President
Have you ever thought maybe teams aren’t as dominate as you think and just because a team is in the top league, it doesn’t mean they are infact the best 16?

The statistics you’ve compiled tell me the gap between the said “best teams” and the next best is vastly smaller than you think.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[AUS]
President
The days of Isidor dominating the world are over..

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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In old days few knew the secrets. Then knew some more. Then they were some.

After some time from few grew the New. Then they were more than some. And more mixed got the view.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[TDZ]
President
chucky06 wrote:
Have you ever thought maybe teams aren’t as dominate as you think and just because a team is in the top league, it doesn’t mean they are infact the best 16?

WL is in my opinion the most accurate representation of which teams are the best. Those 12 teams that are in the WL top series, are among the best 20 teams in the world at that given time. Several of the cup winners in that statistic above, is/was not even top 50 in the world in my estimation. Hence why they weren't even in the 1st division of the WL when they won the cup. To make it into 1st division, you have to have a good understanding of tactics, plus a very good team of course.

One of the cup winners in that statistic above (I don't want to mention the team name, but I can do so in private if you want to double check) won 4 of the playoff matches against play (it was the first and only team I checked). I didn't see any skills involved, only a sack full of luck. In one game in particular, he messed up his tactic completely and lost SOT by a significant margin. Yet walked away with the W. He won because he was both lucky with the draw and with the simulator.

chucky06 wrote:
The statistics you’ve compiled tell me the gap between the said “best teams” and the next best is vastly smaller than you think.

No, because I am up against these "next best" teams consistently. So I know the gap very well. The only gap-changer are super goalies who every now and then decide to turn themselves into an octopus with the reflexes of Bruce Lee.

I have shown that 25-4 image to quite a few people, and all of them react the same way. With disgust. Wouldn't it be cool if there was a game review with this image as an illustration to what you can expect as a manager on MZ? You think it will draw users into the game?

raamatupood wrote:
In old days few knew the secrets. Then knew some more. Then they were some.

After some time from few grew the New. Then they were more than some. And more mixed got the view.

Are you by any chance related to Yoda? ;)

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[FLUSA]
President
hanzinho wrote:
I have shown that 25-4 image to quite a few people, and all of them react the same way. With disgust.


I have this same issue when I play FIFA on my XBOX, there are days in which I take 5 shots and score 4 goals and others in which I can't score no matter how many attempts I make and my opponent wins just by taking a few shots :S

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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hanzinho wrote:
Are you by any chance related to Yoda? ;)


Chance of Yoda dice: lets say about this race..
When I offer new hundred old books ("raamatupood" stands for "book store"), sometimes it takes nukes, to get them sold - yes, it is not bold, but brings enough smile to face, when chance holds on table the ace.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[TDZ]
President
darkline wrote:
I have this same issue when I play FIFA on my XBOX, there are days in which I take 5 shots and score 4 goals and others in which I can't score no matter how many attempts I make and my opponent wins just by taking a few shots :S

But 25-4 = 0-2? Have you experienced this in FIFA or any other football games?

I have no experience with FIFA, but I have played pretty much every football manager game that exist, it be on PC or Amiga back in the very old days. I am a fanatic. And I have never come across anything like the absurdities I experience almost daily here on MZ. 13-2 = 1-2. 21-1 = 0-1. 18-7 = 5-5. 25-4 = 0-2. Once I saw 40-1 = 0-1 (not one of my matches, thank God!).

Maybe new users should be met with the following notification somewhere during the tutorial: "This football manager game isn't quite like any other ones. You will have to be prepared to lose a lot of matches seriously against play. In Sweden we call it socialism. We believe strongly in handouts, so we have included this in our game."

Either that, or maybe the 25-4 picture. Lets check the conversion on that one.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[FLUSA]
President
hanzinho wrote:
But 25-4 = 0-2? Have you experienced this in FIFA or any other football games?


This are two of the last four games I lost managing Liverpool on Football Manager, which I suppose we can all agree has probably the best football SIM as you can get right now...





On the 1st one I had 14 shots vs 3 shots and I lost 1-0, the other I had 21 vs 6 and lost 1-0.... I didn't nitpick the games, I can printout my full gaming schedule and you'll see this are 2 of the last 4 games I lost at FM. Basically, 50% of the games I lost in FM this season where against play (and I won a few against play too)

The thing is, if you play a ton of games a day, you're bound to lose games against play... that happens in real life, happens when you play a game like FIFA, happens on top football manager games and happens here too as that's the way football is.

The SIM should be vastly improved, lots and lots of things that could and should be better, but I'm not sure the issue of shots taken vs goals scored is such a big issue as you believe...

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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Games like these (as shown above) should obviously happen, but maybe not on a regular basis like now? Last season I was eliminated more than half of the times by clubs placed in lower divisions (divison 1 to 5). Some had significantly lower values, and most had below average overall results. In all these cases I tried to notice flaws in my own tactics, and of course advantages in my opponents tactics. Most of the time I failed to find any good reasons at all. That being said: Player skills are mostly hidden, which makes the analysis harder. But what I could tell is: Most of the times I managed to read my opponents pretty well. I had 5 players in the back against wing, I had short passing through the middle against the same back line, I had 3 defenders and a tight back against short passing in the middle, and I had wing play against my opponents 3 back line. Still I kept losing and losing. What looked liked better tactics and a better team, kept resulting in 1-2 losses and 2-3 losses. Now I am asking myself: Should I just play random tactics? Since "taking out" an opponents tactic most of the time ends up with a 1 goal loss? even if my team is obviously better.

Consistency is the key word. Tactics need to be somewhat reliable... and that's the whole problem with this manager games as it is now. Actually... as I am typing this: From now on I will actually close my eyes and chose random tactics, just to prove the obvious. Consistency, reliability is very low. In real football: you would obviously play a tight defense against short passing through the middle. On ManagerZone: It doesn't work like that.

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So ... What will be the suggestions or solutions?

1) Bribe referee = 500 000 EUR
2) Use steroids = 250 000 EUR
3) Poison opponent team's water = 1 000 000 EUR
4) Smuggle extra player to field for x minutes = 10 000 EUR / minute
5) Invite more players to Managerzone, so Top League managers can win and "hunters" will lose to newbies.
...

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[FLUSA]
President
Honestly, I'd be happy if we can get a new SIM in which we can apply real football tactics and counter-tactics, that alone would be a huge step forward.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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Who is the SIM-master, anybody knows? Is he playing MZ too?

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[TDZ]
President
Darkline:

Actually in those two games that you refer to, you won SOT 6-3 and 5-3 :D

Yes, you had a crap load of shots missing the goal. But there was no super goalie that saved 25 out of 25 shots. Well done making it to 2034 by the way.

I haven't tried the game since FM 2015 or 16. It was just too easy and offered no challenge, even though I picked Leeds United. FM 2019 is probably still in beta if I understand the reviews I have been reading regarding the game plus my own experience with the franchise. So the inaccuracies of the strikers might be corrected, eventually. I see that there is a lot of user complaints regarding that.

The franchise has become one of the biggest milk-cow in the gaming industry. SI does minor alterations to the actual game plus a data update and calls it FM 2020, 21 etc. It is unfortunate, because they own the entire market. Nobody can compete with them. Hence why they don't need to put much effort into it, hence they can release an unfinished and buggy product. Year after year.

darkline wrote:
The thing is, if you play a ton of games a day, you're bound to lose games against play... that happens in real life, happens when you play a game like FIFA, happens on top football manager games and happens here too as that's the way football is.

I am currently among the most active managers in this game. For the most part I have between 3 and 10 competitive matches per day. I don't count all those games in which the difference in quality between me and the opponent is too big for any upsets to occur (we are talking 5-0, 14-0 etc.)

Sometimes I have 3 out of 3 key matches going against play. Other times it is 5 out of 6 matches. I don't say that there should never be any deviations between SOT and result, because we don't want to play a game that looks like a spreadsheet. But the lack of correlation between SOT and result is extreme. You won't find it in any other football manager game out there, current or past. Online or versus CPU.

darkline wrote:
I'm not sure the issue of shots taken vs goals scored is such a big issue as you believe...

Relegation despite winning SOT in 20 out of 22 matches is acceptable in your world?
With the same set of players and skills, I won the World League one season later, despite that I won SOT in less matches that time around.

In the domestic league (not counting the big countries like Poland, Argentina and such), the difference in quality between the teams are rather big. Ergo there will be significantly less results against play there, than in the higher WL divisions where you are bound to end up in a league filled with 12 teams that are relatively equal in strength.

Not to mention NT level and the playoffs in World Cup and such. I got two private messages from NC's that said they supported me. They are also fed up with the situation. Both of them got massively simmed and knocked out of a NT tournament despite having superior players, tactic and completely dominating the game. But hey, only 6 months until next tournament...

It is difficult for managers to criticize the simulator in the open, because they immediately gets labelled and called out as failures that simply doesn't understand the game. I am one of the few that doesn't have to worry about that, since I can just point to my trophy cabinet.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[TDZ]
President
raamatupood wrote:
Who is the SIM-master, anybody knows? Is he playing MZ too?

It used to be Marcus Majewski, the guy who actually created the game. Username marcus. He left the company in 2012.

Currently he works as a software developer for a company called Signality, also located in Linköping. My guess is that this is the company that MZ is using in order to update/improve the simulator, but that is pure speculation and might not be the case at all.

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[PL♕]
President
hanzinho wrote:
It used to be Marcus Majewski, the guy who actually created the game. Username marcus. He left the company in 2012.

Currently he works as a software developer for a company called Signality, also located in Linköping. My guess is that this is the company that MZ is using in order to update/improve the simulator, but that is pure speculation and might not be the case at all.


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When crew implements a change in tactics were you actually can counter and re-counter other tactics, that's when this thing will start to make sense and you will see: "Oh! Team X played this tactic, manager X fooled me, what a rascal". But right now... it's a big mess.

Darkline: Hopefully we will get this change one day, indeed.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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Right now it's too much emphasis on skills working/not working in positions. For example: If you have a 10 PI/10 tackling guy, who also has 6 passing, there is a certain position that works best for him (obviously). If all the 11 players in a team is placed in the most desired positions for the actual skills, then you can actually play this tactic only, no need for change. I believe this is why different counter tactics will be a weakness in the end, and not an advantage. For new managers: Less is more, find the most desired positions, this is what you really want to do with the current SIM.

Re: The inconsistency of this great manager game.

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[TDZ]
President
gorglbnlgnag wrote:
When crew implements a change in tactics were you actually can counter and re-counter other tactics, that's when this thing will start to make sense and you will see: "Oh! Team X played this tactic, manager X fooled me, what a rascal".

But that is exactly how it is currently.. That is why pretty much everybody in the WL top divisions change tactic from game to game. There is no other way. If you stick with the same tactic, you are going to get countered, because counter-tactics work, its effective. If it wasn't effective, then even the best teams would be using the same tactic in all their matches.

Your lack of success might be connected with the players you have, the lack of certain skills, opponent being stronger than you think. It could be a number of other things aswell.

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Well... I think the more typical counter-tactics, the ones that would actually make sense in football, those are totally crap with this SIM. I am talking about tight defense against passing in the middle and wide defense against winger. Those will most likely fail you miserably. With this SIM you will do a lot better with a standard 4-2-1-wing formation, in 9 out of 10 matches.

That lost game of yours (against the weaker China-team) is a great example of just that. He played his standard tactic, with double-wing and defensive midfielders moved over to one side. He didn't even try to take out your short passers through the middle. And for that reason alone you got 25 shots on goal. That should have been more than enough to secure you the win, obviously. If he on the other hand had played a tight defense, if he had even tried to take out your short passers through the middle, then of course: he could have been rewarded for his smart tactical choice. But again... he played his standard tactic, and made no attempt to stop your stronger players. For weaker teams to win, they must take out the better team with a counter-tactic, not play standard bullshit and win because you are a lucky bastard. THAT is bingo.
 
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