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Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By osmanbiberic - 23-04-2016 12:27

Hi, which skills is most importand for goalkeepers except of goalkeeping? I guess on play inteeligence and stamina?Hi, which skills is most importand for goalkeepers except of goalkeeping? I guess on play inteeligence and stamina?

 

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Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By maria171 - 23-04-2016 13:19

[MAS]
President

For me, I always look at speed, stamina, and goalkeeping as my main criteria for GK position. Secondly, it is optional, I also look at Play Intelligence because it is mainly about positioning, and I also look at ball control which is important for increases the chance of gk keeping hold of the ball.For me, I always look at speed, stamina, and goalkeeping as my main criteria for GK position. Secondly, it is optional, I also look at Play Intelligence because it is mainly about positioning, and I also look at ball control which is important for increases the chance of gk keeping hold of the ball.

Sv: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By osmanbiberic - 23-04-2016 13:50

Oh, didn't know that about ball control. But why speed? It doesn't seem importand for a goalkeeper.Oh, didn't know that about ball control. But why speed? It doesn't seem importand for a goalkeeper.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By jiim - 23-04-2016 13:56

[MZ]

M If he couldnt move, then he would only save the balls hitting him :D

osmanbiberic wrote:

Oh, didn't know that about ball control. But why speed? It doesn't seem importand for a goalkeeper.

M

If he couldnt move, then he would only save the balls hitting him :D

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By smiller29 - 23-04-2016 14:10

[BotP]

I would train the following order: 2) Stamina 3) Player Intel (4-6 are fairly interchangeable) 4) Speed 5) Ball Control 6) Aerial Passing 7) Set Plays 8) Passing as far as speed is concerned, you often times will see a keeper stop a ball and it will fall at his feet or off to the side. it then becomes a race to the ball usually between the shooter and the keeper. speed will come into play at that point in time. i have found that a keeper with decent ball control is MUCH more likely to hold onto the ball when he saves it. I have had good goalies with low ball control and it seems like they often get 90% of the shot, but it regularly slips through their fingers and rolls into the net.I would train the following order:

2) Stamina
3) Player Intel

(4-6 are fairly interchangeable)
4) Speed
5) Ball Control
6) Aerial Passing

7) Set Plays
8) Passing

as far as speed is concerned, you often times will see a keeper stop a ball and it will fall at his feet or off to the side. it then becomes a race to the ball usually between the shooter and the keeper. speed will come into play at that point in time. i have found that a keeper with decent ball control is MUCH more likely to hold onto the ball when he saves it. I have had good goalies with low ball control and it seems like they often get 90% of the shot, but it regularly slips through their fingers and rolls into the net.

Edited: 23-04-2016 14:13
Total edits: 1

Sv: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By osmanbiberic - 23-04-2016 14:59

Jiim - Hehe :D Smiller29 - Thanks for a good answer, i also have that order like you, the only difference is that I will probably train ball control before speed. But I don't think it will make a big differnce which of the two atributes you prioritate.Jiim - Hehe :D

Smiller29 - Thanks for a good answer, i also have that order like you, the only difference is that I will probably train ball control before speed. But I don't think it will make a big differnce which of the two atributes you prioritate.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By theme_dreamer - 24-04-2016 01:56

FWIW, I don't consider ball control to be of any use to goal keepers. A few years ago a forum user whose name I can't recall put it beautifully: "Goal keeping is for the hands, ball control is for the feet" Other than that, stamina will help them keep their energy throughout the match, play intelligence raises their goal keeping skill, and aerial passing (might) help when kicking the ball back into play. I don't think many other skills are relevant (but they can't hurt either!)FWIW, I don't consider ball control to be of any use to goal keepers. A few years ago a forum user whose name I can't recall put it beautifully:

"Goal keeping is for the hands, ball control is for the feet"

Other than that, stamina will help them keep their energy throughout the match, play intelligence raises their goal keeping skill, and aerial passing (might) help when kicking the ball back into play. I don't think many other skills are relevant (but they can't hurt either!)

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By dowopado - 24-04-2016 06:30

[BotP]

I often wonder why Crew has passing as one of the skills to train in a goalkeeper TC package!!! It raises my eye brow, especially, coming from Crew.

theme_dreamer wrote:

Other than that, stamina will help them keep their energy throughout the match, play intelligence raises their goal keeping skill, and aerial passing (might) help when kicking the ball back into play. I don't think many other skills are relevant (but they can't hurt either!)

I often wonder why Crew has passing as one of the skills to train in a goalkeeper TC package!!! It raises my eye brow, especially, coming from Crew.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By gerrad_08 - 24-04-2016 07:38

[INDIA]

i have seen 2 speed 3 stamina gk kick ass of some of the best forwards i rate 6 in speed and st. as the limit bc and pi i like to work on that passing and ap he anyways pass the ball to the opponent and also i have not been able to develop them in any of iti have seen 2 speed 3 stamina gk kick ass of some of the best forwards i rate 6 in speed and st. as the limit bc and pi i like to work on that passing and ap he anyways pass the ball to the opponent and also i have not been able to develop them in any of it

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By matttombstone - 24-04-2016 17:48

[BotP]

Think my input could help here, I'll focus first on the skills. Speed - Important, for definite. Watch a slow goal keeper vs. a fast goal keeper in a match. A fast goal keeper seems to dive quicker as well as get up quicker. They also come out of goal quicker, important for stopping a second shot, etc. Stamina - How long a keeper can last. Don't be fooled, keepers who face 0 shots in the first half and has done absolutely nothing still loses stamina. Stamina is more time based as opposed to effort based. So a 6 minimum is recommended, 7+ is more helpful, depending on your pressing style (which effects the amount stamina used). Play intelligence - Decision making and positioning is effected. Higher PI levels will help the keeper come off his line quicker and take up better positions during attacks. I also suspect it could effect the keepers reflexes and reactions, but I doubt the simulator is that in depth. Passing - By definition it means ground passing. 12 years in the game and I have NEVER seen a keeper play a ground pass. Due to this, this skill is completely useless! Shooting - Would be somewhat helpful maybe 2-3 times in his career. By this I mean during penalty shoot outs where he has to take one. Therefore, practically useless, but actually slightly more useful than passing. Heading - Useless. Keepers do not head balls. Keeping - The most important skill, the higher the skill the better the keeper is. Most people train outfield players in speed and stamina first to see how useful that player will be. With a keeper keeping training takes priority. Ball control - Completely wrong, and this comes from experience and not from a hunch. This is practically proven. I challenge anyone with a pair of 10 keepers to experiment. A 10 keeper with 0-2 ball control and a 10 keeper with 6+ ball control. Switch them about and watch the difference. Low ball control keepers will parry the ball often, even 10 ball keepers, especially from close range shots and even from long shots. A 6+ BC keeper rarely parries the ball and practically never parries a long shot. If the ball is parried another shooting opportunity is presented, especially from short range. Ball control is [b]CRUCIAL[/b] to a keeper and I will argue anyone who disagrees. I have seen it first hand, I have developed my own 10 keepers and watched as they got better with more ball control. Saving a shot is handling a ball, it is some form of ball control. Tackling - Useless, keepers don't tackle. Aerial Passing - The definition of aerial passing is any pass played by a player which leaves the ground. As I stated in the passing skill, keepers NEVER play ground passes and ALWAYS play aerial passes. Therefore this skill is important for distribution. Set plays - Probably the most debatable skill. Set plays you would read as any dead ball situation; Corners, free kicks and penalties. Therefore, the skill you would expect to effect every player taking part of that set piece, including a keeper. Set plays would therefore be helpful during free kicks (The rare ones on target) and very important during penalties. I have no real experience training keepers up in this as I feel I'd be training the keeper for occasional reasons. I'd rather have my keeper keep out outfield shots and concede penalties and rely on my attack to score from open play. This said, this would be a skill I'd train up if all the other skills are maxed or at such a level each additional ball wouldn't make a huge difference. So my order of importance... 1) Max goal keeping 2) Train Stamina up to 6 3) Train Ball control up to 6 4) Train speed up to 6 5) Train PI up to 6 6) Train Stamina to 8 7) Max ball control 8) Max PI 9) Aerial passing up to 7 10) Max stamina 11) Speed up to 8 12) Max Aerial passing 13) Max speed 14) Max Set plays Why a different order at certain points? Such as working speed up before aerial passing but maxing aerial passing first? Well because of the order I feel it is important and also how useful higher skills are. I don't view max speed more important than max aerial passing, but a base line speed I view more important than aerial passing. Of course, this all comes down to personal opinion and choices and it's down to you as a manager to figure out your own training routine. I would definitely ignore skills like passing, heading, tackling and shooting though, I'd even work shooting ahead of passing for penalty situations first, I'd only work passing once Keeping, speed, stamina, play intelligence, ball control, aerial passing, set plays and shooting are maxed, which would be incredibly rare and rely on certain skills maxing early. /Matt.Think my input could help here, I'll focus first on the skills.

Speed - Important, for definite. Watch a slow goal keeper vs. a fast goal keeper in a match. A fast goal keeper seems to dive quicker as well as get up quicker. They also come out of goal quicker, important for stopping a second shot, etc.

Stamina - How long a keeper can last. Don't be fooled, keepers who face 0 shots in the first half and has done absolutely nothing still loses stamina. Stamina is more time based as opposed to effort based. So a 6 minimum is recommended, 7+ is more helpful, depending on your pressing style (which effects the amount stamina used).

Play intelligence - Decision making and positioning is effected. Higher PI levels will help the keeper come off his line quicker and take up better positions during attacks. I also suspect it could effect the keepers reflexes and reactions, but I doubt the simulator is that in depth.

Passing - By definition it means ground passing. 12 years in the game and I have NEVER seen a keeper play a ground pass. Due to this, this skill is completely useless!

Shooting - Would be somewhat helpful maybe 2-3 times in his career. By this I mean during penalty shoot outs where he has to take one. Therefore, practically useless, but actually slightly more useful than passing.

Heading - Useless. Keepers do not head balls.

Keeping - The most important skill, the higher the skill the better the keeper is. Most people train outfield players in speed and stamina first to see how useful that player will be. With a keeper keeping training takes priority.

Ball control -

theme_dreamer wrote:

"Goal keeping is for the hands, ball control is for the feet"

Completely wrong, and this comes from experience and not from a hunch. This is practically proven. I challenge anyone with a pair of 10 keepers to experiment. A 10 keeper with 0-2 ball control and a 10 keeper with 6+ ball control. Switch them about and watch the difference. Low ball control keepers will parry the ball often, even 10 ball keepers, especially from close range shots and even from long shots. A 6+ BC keeper rarely parries the ball and practically never parries a long shot. If the ball is parried another shooting opportunity is presented, especially from short range. Ball control is CRUCIAL to a keeper and I will argue anyone who disagrees. I have seen it first hand, I have developed my own 10 keepers and watched as they got better with more ball control. Saving a shot is handling a ball, it is some form of ball control.

Tackling - Useless, keepers don't tackle.

Aerial Passing - The definition of aerial passing is any pass played by a player which leaves the ground. As I stated in the passing skill, keepers NEVER play ground passes and ALWAYS play aerial passes. Therefore this skill is important for distribution.

Set plays - Probably the most debatable skill. Set plays you would read as any dead ball situation; Corners, free kicks and penalties. Therefore, the skill you would expect to effect every player taking part of that set piece, including a keeper. Set plays would therefore be helpful during free kicks (The rare ones on target) and very important during penalties. I have no real experience training keepers up in this as I feel I'd be training the keeper for occasional reasons. I'd rather have my keeper keep out outfield shots and concede penalties and rely on my attack to score from open play. This said, this would be a skill I'd train up if all the other skills are maxed or at such a level each additional ball wouldn't make a huge difference.

So my order of importance...

1) Max goal keeping
2) Train Stamina up to 6
3) Train Ball control up to 6
4) Train speed up to 6
5) Train PI up to 6
6) Train Stamina to 8
7) Max ball control
8) Max PI
9) Aerial passing up to 7
10) Max stamina
11) Speed up to 8
12) Max Aerial passing
13) Max speed
14) Max Set plays

Why a different order at certain points? Such as working speed up before aerial passing but maxing aerial passing first? Well because of the order I feel it is important and also how useful higher skills are. I don't view max speed more important than max aerial passing, but a base line speed I view more important than aerial passing. Of course, this all comes down to personal opinion and choices and it's down to you as a manager to figure out your own training routine. I would definitely ignore skills like passing, heading, tackling and shooting though, I'd even work shooting ahead of passing for penalty situations first, I'd only work passing once Keeping, speed, stamina, play intelligence, ball control, aerial passing, set plays and shooting are maxed, which would be incredibly rare and rely on certain skills maxing early.

/Matt.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By dowopado - 24-04-2016 21:24

[BotP]

Rarely do I ever taken exception to what you have to say because you have been involved in MZ much longer than I have, and I respect your perceptions of all things in MZ. However, of late there were discussions in the admin forum about passing/aerial passing which has prompt a different perspective of these passes which I have never considered before because I was under the same assumption as you. The xAs in the admin forum were of the Spanish and Latin countries that gave a different perspective of those passes as: passing--any ground passes or below the shoulder passes. aerial passing--any above the shoulder passes. If I am not mistaken, I think they even quoted their translated manuals with those descriptions of the passes. Anyhow, it gave me cause to rethink my perspective of the passes because by definition in the English manual, I could not dispute their perceptions. The English manual definitions are: Passing: A player with good Passing skills is more likely to retain possession for his team as he has an increased likelihood of finding his team-mates with accurate passes. Aerial Passing: A player with high skill levels in this attribute is adept at finding team-mates with long, aerial balls from anywhere on the pitch. So, due to these definitions which are not very definitive, I assume it is a matter of interpretation by managers, and is one of the essences of MZ that makes it so intriguing...that is formulate your own opinion. Now, having said all of that...I have observed in my matches that keepers do occasionally make short passes...say, only half the distance to midfield which could be low to the ground, and dangerous passes that give the opponent the opportunity to intercept at close range to the goal. Is my keeper inaccurate with those because he has only 1/2 skill balls in passing...he has 10 in aerial passing. It has prompt me to think training in passing is a viable skill for keepers, and is why Crew has passing as a training skill in a goalkeeper TC package. Maybe not a skill more important than the ones you have mentioned but maybe not a useless skill either.

matttombstone wrote:

Passing - By definition it means ground passing. 12 years in the game and I have NEVER seen a keeper play a ground pass. Due to this, this skill is completely useless!

Aerial Passing - The definition of aerial passing is any pass played by a player which leaves the ground. As I stated in the passing skill, keepers NEVER play ground passes and ALWAYS play aerial passes. Therefore this skill is important for distribution.
/Matt.

Rarely do I ever taken exception to what you have to say because you have been involved in MZ much longer than I have, and I respect your perceptions of all things in MZ. However, of late there were discussions in the admin forum about passing/aerial passing which has prompt a different perspective of these passes which I have never considered before because I was under the same assumption as you. The xAs in the admin forum were of the Spanish and Latin countries that gave a different perspective of those passes as:
passing--any ground passes or below the shoulder passes.
aerial passing--any above the shoulder passes.
If I am not mistaken, I think they even quoted their translated manuals with those descriptions of the passes.

Anyhow, it gave me cause to rethink my perspective of the passes because by definition in the English manual, I could not dispute their perceptions. The English manual definitions are:
Passing: A player with good Passing skills is more likely to retain possession for his team as he has an increased likelihood of finding his team-mates with accurate passes.

Aerial Passing: A player with high skill levels in this attribute is adept at finding team-mates with long, aerial balls from anywhere on the pitch.

So, due to these definitions which are not very definitive, I assume it is a matter of interpretation by managers, and is one of the essences of MZ that makes it so intriguing...that is formulate your own opinion.

Now, having said all of that...I have observed in my matches that keepers do occasionally make short passes...say, only half the distance to midfield which could be low to the ground, and dangerous passes that give the opponent the opportunity to intercept at close range to the goal. Is my keeper inaccurate with those because he has only 1/2 skill balls in passing...he has 10 in aerial passing. It has prompt me to think training in passing is a viable skill for keepers, and is why Crew has passing as a training skill in a goalkeeper TC package. Maybe not a skill more important than the ones you have mentioned but maybe not a useless skill either.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By theme_dreamer - 25-04-2016 04:54

Hey Matt, thanks for adding your wisdom to the discussion. You are very knowledgable and respected in the game so I respect what you have to say, I would just like to add why I believe what I do. The former manager Tosspot created an external tool to analyse managerzone team and player performance, and using literally 100,000's of matches of data, ran a test to see which skills had a positive correlation with goal keeper saved shots. The results that he reported on the forum were: 1) Goal keeping had a strong positive correlation (thankfully!) 2) Stamina was positively correlated, but after 5 stamina balls, the effect was negligible 3) Play intelligence was positively correlated, but the effect was very small 4) No other skills were correlated (which means ball control did not affect the outcome what-so-ever) And once again, he had 100,000's of matches worth of data to use in this test, so if we trust the source (and I do), then I am going to accept it as fact.

matttombstone wrote:

Ball control -
theme_dreamer wrote:
"Goal keeping is for the hands, ball control is for the feet"


Completely wrong, and this comes from experience and not from a hunch. This is practically proven. I challenge anyone with a pair of 10 keepers to experiment. A 10 keeper with 0-2 ball control and a 10 keeper with 6+ ball control. Switch them about and watch the difference. Low ball control keepers will parry the ball often, even 10 ball keepers, especially from close range shots and even from long shots. A 6+ BC keeper rarely parries the ball and practically never parries a long shot. If the ball is parried another shooting opportunity is presented, especially from short range. Ball control is CRUCIAL to a keeper and I will argue anyone who disagrees. I have seen it first hand, I have developed my own 10 keepers and watched as they got better with more ball control. Saving a shot is handling a ball, it is some form of ball control.

Hey Matt, thanks for adding your wisdom to the discussion. You are very knowledgable and respected in the game so I respect what you have to say, I would just like to add why I believe what I do.

The former manager Tosspot created an external tool to analyse managerzone team and player performance, and using literally 100,000's of matches of data, ran a test to see which skills had a positive correlation with goal keeper saved shots. The results that he reported on the forum were:

1) Goal keeping had a strong positive correlation (thankfully!)
2) Stamina was positively correlated, but after 5 stamina balls, the effect was negligible
3) Play intelligence was positively correlated, but the effect was very small
4) No other skills were correlated (which means ball control did not affect the outcome what-so-ever)

And once again, he had 100,000's of matches worth of data to use in this test, so if we trust the source (and I do), then I am going to accept it as fact.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By matttombstone - 25-04-2016 23:54

[BotP]

Intriguing theory, perhaps it's worth testing the passing to see if it does improve those situations then? I've always seen keepers kick the ball high which to me says aerial passing and I've never seen the keeper play along the ground which to me means short passing. However, I'm not saying you could be wrong, if the case is the fact your keeper plays shorter range balls poorly then maybe passing could have an influence after all, possibly having been introduced in one of the previous few sims whilst I've been gone. I would take having passing as part of the keeper package with a pinch of salt, skills have been in TC packages where they've been irrelevant, like when heading was not an active skill in the sim. I'd like to try your theory out, but normally I tend to focus my keepers towards saving shots rather than distribution, although with defences being practically useless these days I may have to rethink my keeper training strategy. I think I can vaguely recall this thread if I'm honest, and fair play, I may have strongly disagreed but it doesn't mean I'm right. However, I'd like to challenge the ball control part, if I may. You've probably not been fully clear with how you've explained it, or not dummy proof anyway! You said that these matches were tested for how skills affected a keepers shot saving ability, correct? If that's how these tests were run, to see what skills improved a keepers ability to save a shot, then you'd be right, ball control has zero affect. The ball control argument isn't about saving a shot, but parry prevention, by that I mean ball control dictates if a keeper can hold on to the ball following a shot or simply spill it back into play. Ball control from what I have seen hugely affects this, but around 6 BC is optimum to prevent parried shots. These parried saves would count as a save in Tosspot's test as he's prevented a shot being scored, even if he's saved the rebound. If these tests could somehow show the amount of second chances strikers were getting or the keepers catching percentage I'd argue that you'd see ball control affect that stat. So essentially, ball control doesn't help a keepers saving ability, it aids his ability to hold the ball following a shot, preventing a second opportunity to a striker. My keeper currently has low ball control, but I'm finishing off his 7th stamina partial before I train that skill up, I might just start taking notes on how many shots he drops in the league and compare the stats to how many he drops when he gets higher ball control levels.

dowopado wrote:

Now, having said all of that...I have observed in my matches that keepers do occasionally make short passes...say, only half the distance to midfield which could be low to the ground, and dangerous passes that give the opponent the opportunity to intercept at close range to the goal. Is my keeper inaccurate with those because he has only 1/2 skill balls in passing...he has 10 in aerial passing. It has prompt me to think training in passing is a viable skill for keepers, and is why Crew has passing as a training skill in a goalkeeper TC package. Maybe not a skill more important than the ones you have mentioned but maybe not a useless skill either.

Intriguing theory, perhaps it's worth testing the passing to see if it does improve those situations then? I've always seen keepers kick the ball high which to me says aerial passing and I've never seen the keeper play along the ground which to me means short passing. However, I'm not saying you could be wrong, if the case is the fact your keeper plays shorter range balls poorly then maybe passing could have an influence after all, possibly having been introduced in one of the previous few sims whilst I've been gone. I would take having passing as part of the keeper package with a pinch of salt, skills have been in TC packages where they've been irrelevant, like when heading was not an active skill in the sim. I'd like to try your theory out, but normally I tend to focus my keepers towards saving shots rather than distribution, although with defences being practically useless these days I may have to rethink my keeper training strategy.

theme_dreamer wrote:

Hey Matt, thanks for adding your wisdom to the discussion. You are very knowledgable and respected in the game so I respect what you have to say, I would just like to add why I believe what I do.

The former manager Tosspot created an external tool to analyse managerzone team and player performance, and using literally 100,000's of matches of data, ran a test to see which skills had a positive correlation with goal keeper saved shots. The results that he reported on the forum were:

1) Goal keeping had a strong positive correlation (thankfully!)
2) Stamina was positively correlated, but after 5 stamina balls, the effect was negligible
3) Play intelligence was positively correlated, but the effect was very small
4) No other skills were correlated (which means ball control did not affect the outcome what-so-ever)

And once again, he had 100,000's of matches worth of data to use in this test, so if we trust the source (and I do), then I am going to accept it as fact.

I think I can vaguely recall this thread if I'm honest, and fair play, I may have strongly disagreed but it doesn't mean I'm right. However, I'd like to challenge the ball control part, if I may. You've probably not been fully clear with how you've explained it, or not dummy proof anyway! You said that these matches were tested for how skills affected a keepers shot saving ability, correct? If that's how these tests were run, to see what skills improved a keepers ability to save a shot, then you'd be right, ball control has zero affect. The ball control argument isn't about saving a shot, but parry prevention, by that I mean ball control dictates if a keeper can hold on to the ball following a shot or simply spill it back into play. Ball control from what I have seen hugely affects this, but around 6 BC is optimum to prevent parried shots. These parried saves would count as a save in Tosspot's test as he's prevented a shot being scored, even if he's saved the rebound. If these tests could somehow show the amount of second chances strikers were getting or the keepers catching percentage I'd argue that you'd see ball control affect that stat.

So essentially, ball control doesn't help a keepers saving ability, it aids his ability to hold the ball following a shot, preventing a second opportunity to a striker. My keeper currently has low ball control, but I'm finishing off his 7th stamina partial before I train that skill up, I might just start taking notes on how many shots he drops in the league and compare the stats to how many he drops when he gets higher ball control levels.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By coconut_wolf_bandit - 26-04-2016 05:09

[PSCF]

My experience in this matter is negligible when it comes to testing, hence why I haven't entered the Thunderdome yet (hope someone gets that reference). However, from my reading, I think we all agree that maxing keeping is a priority. Most keeper will be maxed by the age of 19-20, so is it not smart to then assume that they have 8 years worth of training after that to go? The fact is, its not like we are going to leave our keepers not training, when its either free (no coaches) or they are the last one added to a coached-skill that is covered 3-4 other players. My theory is that after keeping, stamina of >5-6 (the higher the better though) should be maxed. If he has 10 keeping balls thats cool but useless if he is lying on the ground buggered because he can't last the entire game. PI you are never going to train them in as a youth (slow) so I think starting that after they graduate/early 20's is smart as well. Even after sp/st/PI are maxed, you still have a keeper who can train, so put him in AP and BC or whatever... May as well use the time, its not costing you anything.My experience in this matter is negligible when it comes to testing, hence why I haven't entered the Thunderdome yet (hope someone gets that reference).

However, from my reading, I think we all agree that maxing keeping is a priority. Most keeper will be maxed by the age of 19-20, so is it not smart to then assume that they have 8 years worth of training after that to go?

The fact is, its not like we are going to leave our keepers not training, when its either free (no coaches) or they are the last one added to a coached-skill that is covered 3-4 other players. My theory is that after keeping, stamina of >5-6 (the higher the better though) should be maxed. If he has 10 keeping balls thats cool but useless if he is lying on the ground buggered because he can't last the entire game. PI you are never going to train them in as a youth (slow) so I think starting that after they graduate/early 20's is smart as well. Even after sp/st/PI are maxed, you still have a keeper who can train, so put him in AP and BC or whatever... May as well use the time, its not costing you anything.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By theme_dreamer - 26-04-2016 07:23

Your logic reads perfectly to me, and I don't fault any of it. A fumbled save still counts as a saved shot, even though it may result in a second shot being offered to the attacking team. There is no way to control for that in the data, unless you watched all of the matches and kept a record of whether the saved shot was handled or fumbled (no thanks haha). If you have seen that higher ball control decreases keeper fumbles, and you believe this, then go with it. Personally, I just don't think the sim is ANYWHERE NEAR that clever ;) I would only suggest that it would be extremely difficult for us to test this, because there is an extraneous variable that I believe is very important - experience. Whilst ball control in increasing, experience is also increasing, and may be the real source of whatever improvements you are seeing (I really wish I had thought to ask tosspot about this at the time). I agree with what coconut wolf bandit is saying too, I still train keepers as high as I can in speed, stamina, play intel and ball control. It doe$n't matter that I don't believe in those $kill$: what matter$ i$ what the buyer believe$... ;) ;) ;)

matttombstone wrote:

I think I can vaguely recall this thread if I'm honest, and fair play, I may have strongly disagreed but it doesn't mean I'm right. However, I'd like to challenge the ball control part, if I may. You've probably not been fully clear with how you've explained it, or not dummy proof anyway! You said that these matches were tested for how skills affected a keepers shot saving ability, correct? If that's how these tests were run, to see what skills improved a keepers ability to save a shot, then you'd be right, ball control has zero affect. The ball control argument isn't about saving a shot, but parry prevention, by that I mean ball control dictates if a keeper can hold on to the ball following a shot or simply spill it back into play. Ball control from what I have seen hugely affects this, but around 6 BC is optimum to prevent parried shots. These parried saves would count as a save in Tosspot's test as he's prevented a shot being scored, even if he's saved the rebound. If these tests could somehow show the amount of second chances strikers were getting or the keepers catching percentage I'd argue that you'd see ball control affect that stat.

So essentially, ball control doesn't help a keepers saving ability, it aids his ability to hold the ball following a shot, preventing a second opportunity to a striker. My keeper currently has low ball control, but I'm finishing off his 7th stamina partial before I train that skill up, I might just start taking notes on how many shots he drops in the league and compare the stats to how many he drops when he gets higher ball control levels.

Your logic reads perfectly to me, and I don't fault any of it. A fumbled save still counts as a saved shot, even though it may result in a second shot being offered to the attacking team. There is no way to control for that in the data, unless you watched all of the matches and kept a record of whether the saved shot was handled or fumbled (no thanks haha).

If you have seen that higher ball control decreases keeper fumbles, and you believe this, then go with it. Personally, I just don't think the sim is ANYWHERE NEAR that clever ;) I would only suggest that it would be extremely difficult for us to test this, because there is an extraneous variable that I believe is very important - experience. Whilst ball control in increasing, experience is also increasing, and may be the real source of whatever improvements you are seeing (I really wish I had thought to ask tosspot about this at the time).

I agree with what coconut wolf bandit is saying too, I still train keepers as high as I can in speed, stamina, play intel and ball control. It doe$n't matter that I don't believe in those $kill$: what matter$ i$ what the buyer believe$... ;) ;) ;)

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By smiller29 - 26-04-2016 11:46

[BotP]

I know we are beating a dead horse at this point in time, but I am a firm believer in the Ball Control for keepers. I used a 30 year old, 10 Kp, 8 St keeper who had 0 BC and he had butter fingers like you wouldn't believe. He kept getting 90% of the shot but the ball would somehow find it's way through him and trickle over the line. I replaced him with my well trained 22 year old keeper and WHAT A DIFFERENCE. I probably won't change your opinion on the situation but I did have a very experienced keeper who was pretty much garbage and I felt the reason was because of his low BC skill.

theme_dreamer wrote:

If you have seen that higher ball control decreases keeper fumbles, and you believe this, then go with it. Personally, I just don't think the sim is ANYWHERE NEAR that clever ;) I would only suggest that it would be extremely difficult for us to test this, because there is an extraneous variable that I believe is very important - experience.

I know we are beating a dead horse at this point in time, but I am a firm believer in the Ball Control for keepers. I used a 30 year old, 10 Kp, 8 St keeper who had 0 BC and he had butter fingers like you wouldn't believe. He kept getting 90% of the shot but the ball would somehow find it's way through him and trickle over the line. I replaced him with my well trained 22 year old keeper and WHAT A DIFFERENCE. I probably won't change your opinion on the situation but I did have a very experienced keeper who was pretty much garbage and I felt the reason was because of his low BC skill.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By theme_dreamer - 26-04-2016 15:39

It’s all good man, one of the great things about managerzone is that no one really knows for sure what’s going on, we all have our beliefs based on our experiences in the game and in some cases (such as this) there is no definitive way to prove or disprove them. A lot of the time you just got to go with your gut! I’m not trying to disprove your beliefs at all, I just want to support my own. If at the end of the day we still disagree, I’m cool with that :) Warning! Nerdy and boring stats tangent follows. When doing statistical analysis it is always desirable to have a large sample size. However there is also a wariness about having a sample size that is too big, as it can result in inflating the power of the design and you might get a significant correlation where in reality there is actually no relationship (known as a type 1 error). Some people criticise having overly large sample sizes and say the results can’t be trusted, however I partly disagree with this. Because if you have a stupidly big sample size, and you STILL don’t get a significant correlation, you can pretty much guarantee that there is no relationship to be found, you will never find a relationship, you can call off the search forever. With that in mind, from memory tosspot used a sample of over 200,000 matches; stupidly big sample size. Even with this massive sample, there was no relationship between ball control and shots saved. Even the significant correlation of Play Intelligence and shots saved might be the result of type 1 error, especially considering the low effect size… which if true would mean that according to tosspots analysis, all your keeper needs is 10 keeping and 5 stamina and he is perfect. I don’t expect anyone to believe something that radical though, even I have trouble believing that :)

smiller29 wrote:

I know we are beating a dead horse at this point in time, but I am a firm believer in the Ball Control for keepers. I used a 30 year old, 10 Kp, 8 St keeper who had 0 BC and he had butter fingers like you wouldn't believe. He kept getting 90% of the shot but the ball would somehow find it's way through him and trickle over the line. I replaced him with my well trained 22 year old keeper and WHAT A DIFFERENCE. I probably won't change your opinion on the situation but I did have a very experienced keeper who was pretty much garbage and I felt the reason was because of his low BC skill.

It’s all good man, one of the great things about managerzone is that no one really knows for sure what’s going on, we all have our beliefs based on our experiences in the game and in some cases (such as this) there is no definitive way to prove or disprove them. A lot of the time you just got to go with your gut! I’m not trying to disprove your beliefs at all, I just want to support my own. If at the end of the day we still disagree, I’m cool with that :)

Warning! Nerdy and boring stats tangent follows. When doing statistical analysis it is always desirable to have a large sample size. However there is also a wariness about having a sample size that is too big, as it can result in inflating the power of the design and you might get a significant correlation where in reality there is actually no relationship (known as a type 1 error). Some people criticise having overly large sample sizes and say the results can’t be trusted, however I partly disagree with this. Because if you have a stupidly big sample size, and you STILL don’t get a significant correlation, you can pretty much guarantee that there is no relationship to be found, you will never find a relationship, you can call off the search forever.

With that in mind, from memory tosspot used a sample of over 200,000 matches; stupidly big sample size. Even with this massive sample, there was no relationship between ball control and shots saved. Even the significant correlation of Play Intelligence and shots saved might be the result of type 1 error, especially considering the low effect size… which if true would mean that according to tosspots analysis, all your keeper needs is 10 keeping and 5 stamina and he is perfect. I don’t expect anyone to believe something that radical though, even I have trouble believing that :)

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By theme_dreamer - 26-04-2016 15:50

BTW, here is the best keeper I ever trained that I sold for a small fortune a few weeks ago. Note that I did indeed max out speed and ball control; despite my beliefs that they don't help, they certainly can't hurt either! ;) http://www.managerzone.com/?p=players&pid=182734770&tid=102972BTW, here is the best keeper I ever trained that I sold for a small fortune a few weeks ago. Note that I did indeed max out speed and ball control; despite my beliefs that they don't help, they certainly can't hurt either! ;)

http://www.managerzone.com/?p=players&pid=182734770&tid=102972

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By maria171 - 26-04-2016 15:59

[MAS]
President

wow, by just looking at the player salary, I bet the bid have gone above 3-4 millions? and yet you claim it as a "small fortune"? :p

theme_dreamer wrote:

BTW, here is the best keeper I ever trained that I sold for a small fortune a few weeks ago. Note that I did indeed max out speed and ball control; despite my beliefs that they don't help, they certainly can't hurt either! ;)

http://www.managerzone.com/?p=players&pid=182734770&tid=102972

wow, by just looking at the player salary, I bet the bid have gone above 3-4 millions? and yet you claim it as a "small fortune"? :p

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By coconut_wolf_bandit - 26-04-2016 16:29

[PSCF]

Just short of 5 million for an Australian player at this point in time with the transfer market means he is very good... and with those stats he deserves to be in the national team (which he is).

maria171 wrote:

wow, by just looking at the player salary, I bet the bid have gone above 3-4 millions? and yet you claim it as a "small fortune"? :p

Just short of 5 million for an Australian player at this point in time with the transfer market means he is very good... and with those stats he deserves to be in the national team (which he is).

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By dowopado - 26-04-2016 18:07

[BotP]

My goalkeeper still concedes a lot of goals. He blames it on the defenders??? [fpl=176098213]My goalkeeper still concedes a lot of goals. He blames it on the defenders???

Sotiris Moraitelis

Age: 64 (Retired)

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By coconut_wolf_bandit - 27-04-2016 05:05

[PSCF]

Its cause he is old and forgets to stop the ball going in the net.

dowopado wrote:

My goalkeeper still concedes a lot of goals. He blames it on the defenders???

Sotiris Moraitelis

Age: 64 (Retired)

Its cause he is old and forgets to stop the ball going in the net.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By theme_dreamer - 27-04-2016 07:27

He sold for just under 5 million Australian dollars, so I think in US currency it'd be in the low 4 millions. The fortune only seemed small because the same day I sold 3-4 others for more than than :) His stats look good to me, I'd blame the defenders too. Or this:

maria171 wrote:

wow, by just looking at the player salary, I bet the bid have gone above 3-4 millions? and yet you claim it as a "small fortune"? :p

He sold for just under 5 million Australian dollars, so I think in US currency it'd be in the low 4 millions. The fortune only seemed small because the same day I sold 3-4 others for more than than :)

dowopado wrote:

My goalkeeper still concedes a lot of goals. He blames it on the defenders???

His stats look good to me, I'd blame the defenders too. Or this:

coconut_wolf_bandit wrote:

Its cause he is old and forgets to stop the ball going in the net.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By matttombstone - 27-04-2016 20:31

[BotP]

Highlighting the first paragraph as it's easier to see which post it's on about but fair play with the last part and respect. No one can force their opinions on one and other and a lot of people don't accept that for some reason - glad you do. My current keeper lacks ball control, he's got the 10 keeping 5 stamina and he saved a ton of goals today, but he parried so many of them. He gave away a fair amount of rebound shots today. I'll get the ball control up once he get's his 6th stamina. I did say 7th in a higher post, not sure what got me to say that, but he's closing in on number 6 anyway. After that I intend on working BC and PI up and see how much of a difference that makes. I've made one observation on him though, he is useless at penalties. He's physically scared of them, he's faced two in the league, both of which he just steps to his left constantly until the striker tucks it in the right corner without my keeper moving (except to watch it go in).

theme_dreamer wrote:

It’s all good man, one of the great things about managerzone is that no one really knows for sure what’s going on, we all have our beliefs based on our experiences in the game and in some cases (such as this) there is no definitive way to prove or disprove them. A lot of the time you just got to go with your gut! I’m not trying to disprove your beliefs at all, I just want to support my own. If at the end of the day we still disagree, I’m cool with that :)

Highlighting the first paragraph as it's easier to see which post it's on about but fair play with the last part and respect. No one can force their opinions on one and other and a lot of people don't accept that for some reason - glad you do.

My current keeper lacks ball control, he's got the 10 keeping 5 stamina and he saved a ton of goals today, but he parried so many of them. He gave away a fair amount of rebound shots today. I'll get the ball control up once he get's his 6th stamina. I did say 7th in a higher post, not sure what got me to say that, but he's closing in on number 6 anyway. After that I intend on working BC and PI up and see how much of a difference that makes.

I've made one observation on him though, he is useless at penalties. He's physically scared of them, he's faced two in the league, both of which he just steps to his left constantly until the striker tucks it in the right corner without my keeper moving (except to watch it go in).

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By theme_dreamer - 28-04-2016 01:59

Thanks I agree, I think that there would be a lot less conflict in the world if people had more tolerance for other peoples point of view (doesn't mean you have to agree!) Nice, I look forward to hearing how that goes (although as I said earlier it will be hard to discern if the improvements are due to more ball control or more experience) Haha yeah I have seen that many times over the years, both by my keepers and opposition! All I can say is many years ago I had a keeper with early maxes in Speed Stamina and Play Intel, so I actually got to train him up to 8 set plays and 9+ aerial passing by the time he retired. I never noticed any improvement in saving penalties or kicking the ball back into play, in fact despite being awesome at stopping shots his passing percentage was often worse than the opposition keeper. That was a different sim and a different time, though :)

matttombstone wrote:

Highlighting the first paragraph as it's easier to see which post it's on about but fair play with the last part and respect. No one can force their opinions on one and other and a lot of people don't accept that for some reason - glad you do.

Thanks I agree, I think that there would be a lot less conflict in the world if people had more tolerance for other peoples point of view (doesn't mean you have to agree!)

matttombstone wrote:

My current keeper lacks ball control, he's got the 10 keeping 5 stamina and he saved a ton of goals today, but he parried so many of them. He gave away a fair amount of rebound shots today. I'll get the ball control up once he get's his 6th stamina. I did say 7th in a higher post, not sure what got me to say that, but he's closing in on number 6 anyway. After that I intend on working BC and PI up and see how much of a difference that makes.

Nice, I look forward to hearing how that goes (although as I said earlier it will be hard to discern if the improvements are due to more ball control or more experience)

matttombstone wrote:

I've made one observation on him though, he is useless at penalties. He's physically scared of them, he's faced two in the league, both of which he just steps to his left constantly until the striker tucks it in the right corner without my keeper moving (except to watch it go in).

Haha yeah I have seen that many times over the years, both by my keepers and opposition! All I can say is many years ago I had a keeper with early maxes in Speed Stamina and Play Intel, so I actually got to train him up to 8 set plays and 9+ aerial passing by the time he retired. I never noticed any improvement in saving penalties or kicking the ball back into play, in fact despite being awesome at stopping shots his passing percentage was often worse than the opposition keeper. That was a different sim and a different time, though :)

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By smiller29 - 28-04-2016 22:30

[BotP]

Agree with that. Here's my keeper: [fpl=183269638] The VAST majority of the time I feel he's stronger than the opposition's keeper but I tell you, he is TERRIBLE at saving penalties. I don't concede many goals on corners so maybe that's a good thing. I can't say I particularly notice him being good at goal kicks or just booting the ball down field after a save either. The opposition still gets the ball more than their fair share of the time. I wish those AP and SP stats counted for more. Even if the Penalty Save % went from 10% to 33% or something like that. I should start looking at his Pass % vs the opposition's keeper. P.S. This was the 22 year old keeper that I switched my old keeper with 0 BC for. You can see Weston Potts only has 5 BC so it could be the Player Intel that makes the difference, but he catches most of the balls that are shot at him. He very seldom parries the ball and I almost never get those shots that go through him and stop 6" over the goal line. God I hated those!

theme_dreamer wrote:

....I actually got to train him up to 8 set plays and 9+ aerial passing by the time he retired. I never noticed any improvement in saving penalties or kicking the ball back into play, in fact despite being awesome at stopping shots his passing percentage was often worse than the opposition keeper.

Agree with that. Here's my keeper:

Weston Potts

Age: 58 (Retired)

SpeedSp					(6)
StaminaSt					(6)
Play IntelligencePI					(7)
PassingPa					(7)
ShootingSh					(1)
HeadingHe					(2)
KeepingKe					(10)
Ball ControlBC					(5)
TacklingTa					(0)
Aerial PassingAP					(9)
Set PlaysSP					(10)
ExperienceEx					(10)
FormFo					(9)
Total Skill Balls					63

The VAST majority of the time I feel he's stronger than the opposition's keeper but I tell you, he is TERRIBLE at saving penalties. I don't concede many goals on corners so maybe that's a good thing. I can't say I particularly notice him being good at goal kicks or just booting the ball down field after a save either. The opposition still gets the ball more than their fair share of the time. I wish those AP and SP stats counted for more. Even if the Penalty Save % went from 10% to 33% or something like that. I should start looking at his Pass % vs the opposition's keeper.

P.S. This was the 22 year old keeper that I switched my old keeper with 0 BC for. You can see Weston Potts only has 5 BC so it could be the Player Intel that makes the difference, but he catches most of the balls that are shot at him. He very seldom parries the ball and I almost never get those shots that go through him and stop 6" over the goal line. God I hated those!

Edited: 28-04-2016 22:35
Total edits: 1

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By smiller29 - 28-04-2016 22:44

[BotP]

hmmm, i stand corrected about the passing thing. In his last 5 games he's had an average of about 67% and outpassed the opposition's keeper in 4 of 5 games. That's actually pretty solid.hmmm, i stand corrected about the passing thing. In his last 5 games he's had an average of about 67% and outpassed the opposition's keeper in 4 of 5 games. That's actually pretty solid.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By theme_dreamer - 29-04-2016 06:26

Jee buss, 10 keeping and 10 set plays, other relevant stats look great, if anyone can save penalties it should be him! Sad to hear those skills don't seem to make any difference... (although stopping penalties in real life is quite a hard task, to be fair) That's actually the first time in ten years of managerzone I have ever seen someone train a player to 10 in set plays, so well done you :)

smiller29 wrote:

Agree with that. Here's my keeper: The VAST majority of the time I feel he's stronger than the opposition's keeper but I tell you, he is TERRIBLE at saving penalties.

Jee buss, 10 keeping and 10 set plays, other relevant stats look great, if anyone can save penalties it should be him! Sad to hear those skills don't seem to make any difference... (although stopping penalties in real life is quite a hard task, to be fair)

That's actually the first time in ten years of managerzone I have ever seen someone train a player to 10 in set plays, so well done you :)

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By smiller29 - 29-04-2016 13:12

[BotP]

didn't know what else to train..... just finished the set plays and now i figured i'll train passing for the hell of it. there are definitely those who believe that the higher the ball count in total, the better the player. who knows if it's true. also, i like to think that ball control, stamina, aerial passing, passing, player intel and set plays all are incorporated into a simple goal kick. it's probably not true, but it keeps me training.didn't know what else to train.....

just finished the set plays and now i figured i'll train passing for the hell of it. there are definitely those who believe that the higher the ball count in total, the better the player. who knows if it's true.

also, i like to think that ball control, stamina, aerial passing, passing, player intel and set plays all are incorporated into a simple goal kick. it's probably not true, but it keeps me training.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By scruttino - 29-04-2016 13:36

[AUSNZ]

This is a good point. The sim has very simple mechanics. An example of this is it doesn't matter how long a pass is, you have the same chances of finding your target over 15 metres or 70 metres. The elements of goalkeeping that I have personally identified as important Stopping the shots - Keeping, stamina, PI Preventing the stopped shots from rebounding and generating more shots from the initial chance - Ball Control Passing the ball/restarts - PI, AP - all keeping passes are aerial so passing is no needed. Corners, penalties and freekicks - Unsure - Keeping, PI and SP but this is iffy, no one really knows Gathering a loose ball/Closing down the space to an oncoming striker - PI and Speed

theme_dreamer wrote:

Personally, I just don't think the sim is ANYWHERE NEAR that clever ;)

This is a good point. The sim has very simple mechanics. An example of this is it doesn't matter how long a pass is, you have the same chances of finding your target over 15 metres or 70 metres.

The elements of goalkeeping that I have personally identified as important

Stopping the shots - Keeping, stamina, PI

Preventing the stopped shots from rebounding and generating more shots from the initial chance - Ball Control

Passing the ball/restarts - PI, AP - all keeping passes are aerial so passing is no needed.

Corners, penalties and freekicks - Unsure - Keeping, PI and SP but this is iffy, no one really knows

Gathering a loose ball/Closing down the space to an oncoming striker - PI and Speed

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By held85 - 29-04-2016 16:02

With lots of good thoughts here already said, my opinion on the skills: Speed: Most overrated skill for a keeper. In fact my former mr. slow in goal (4 in speed) was quicker than 9 ball sprint strikers in the very rarely happening running duels. Stamina: is crucial til 8. PI: big effect until 6, nice to have more Passing: Useless Header: Useless Keeping: 10 is king. Ball control: I have to try out this more (my keeper has 4 atm), possibly the most underrated skill Tackling: Unless we're not able to teach our GK's reckless sliding tackles (like in FIFA98RTWC) - useless Aerial Passing: crucial and much underrated, I see big difference between a 3 AP and 8 AP Keeper. Setplays: Dunno hard to figure out in MZ, atm my keeper has 6 Form & XP: Not necessary for my GK because my centerbacks block all attacks like the chinese wall.With lots of good thoughts here already said, my opinion on the skills:

Speed: Most overrated skill for a keeper. In fact my former mr. slow in goal (4 in speed) was quicker than 9 ball sprint strikers in the very rarely happening running duels.
Stamina: is crucial til 8.
PI: big effect until 6, nice to have more
Passing: Useless
Header: Useless
Keeping: 10 is king.
Ball control: I have to try out this more (my keeper has 4 atm), possibly the most underrated skill
Tackling: Unless we're not able to teach our GK's reckless sliding tackles (like in FIFA98RTWC) - useless
Aerial Passing: crucial and much underrated, I see big difference between a 3 AP and 8 AP Keeper.
Setplays: Dunno hard to figure out in MZ, atm my keeper has 6
Form & XP: Not necessary for my GK because my centerbacks block all attacks like the chinese wall.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By matttombstone - 30-04-2016 17:11

[BotP]

Really?!? You have defenders that actually work rather than stand there? I think what we've seen here is that people have different opinions to each other, although there's a general agreement that Keeping (obviously) Stamina, PI and AP are quite important. Most seem to think BC and speed also help whereas people seem to train set plays up too. All in all, this is a management game and if it was as straight forward as it could get and everyone knew exactly what was best for each individual player, be it a keeper or the attacking midfield, then the game wouldn't be that great. What sets it out is that there's a general understanding that certain skills are important for certain positions, but how much is optimum (obviously 10 in everything) what to prioritise in training and what other skills should be developed before the other is the key part to setting each individual manager out. Differences in opinions is what makes this game great and we all seem to agree and disagree on certain aspects. It's a great debate and good to see some form of life in the forums, even if it's in the Q&A! =) /Matt.

held85 wrote:

Form & XP: Not necessary for my GK because my centerbacks block all attacks like the chinese wall.

Really?!? You have defenders that actually work rather than stand there?

I think what we've seen here is that people have different opinions to each other, although there's a general agreement that Keeping (obviously) Stamina, PI and AP are quite important. Most seem to think BC and speed also help whereas people seem to train set plays up too.

All in all, this is a management game and if it was as straight forward as it could get and everyone knew exactly what was best for each individual player, be it a keeper or the attacking midfield, then the game wouldn't be that great. What sets it out is that there's a general understanding that certain skills are important for certain positions, but how much is optimum (obviously 10 in everything) what to prioritise in training and what other skills should be developed before the other is the key part to setting each individual manager out. Differences in opinions is what makes this game great and we all seem to agree and disagree on certain aspects. It's a great debate and good to see some form of life in the forums, even if it's in the Q&A! =)

/Matt.

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By theme_dreamer - 01-05-2016 01:51

Absolutely 100% agree! The only way to truly settle the differences of opinion is to send eleven men out onto the football pitch and let a random number generator decide ;) Either way it is nice to hear the different opinions and consider them against my own. Now I'm off to train up my youth to 10 in every skill so I don't have to think anymore :)

matttombstone wrote:

All in all, this is a management game and if it was as straight forward as it could get and everyone knew exactly what was best for each individual player, be it a keeper or the attacking midfield, then the game wouldn't be that great. What sets it out is that there's a general understanding that certain skills are important for certain positions, but how much is optimum (obviously 10 in everything) what to prioritise in training and what other skills should be developed before the other is the key part to setting each individual manager out. Differences in opinions is what makes this game great and we all seem to agree and disagree on certain aspects.

Absolutely 100% agree! The only way to truly settle the differences of opinion is to send eleven men out onto the football pitch and let a random number generator decide ;) Either way it is nice to hear the different opinions and consider them against my own.

Now I'm off to train up my youth to 10 in every skill so I don't have to think anymore :)

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By theme_dreamer - 01-05-2016 01:55

I agree with this too actually... the 3D is just a graphical representation of the sim, and there are times when players regardless of their speed just teleport to where they need to be. He he he ;)

held85 wrote:

Speed: Most overrated skill for a keeper. In fact my former mr. slow in goal (4 in speed) was quicker than 9 ball sprint strikers in the very rarely happening running duels.

I agree with this too actually... the 3D is just a graphical representation of the sim, and there are times when players regardless of their speed just teleport to where they need to be.

held85 wrote:

Form & XP: Not necessary for my GK because my centerbacks block all attacks like the chinese wall.

He he he ;)

Re: Best secondary skills for goalkeeper?

By matttombstone - 01-05-2016 17:39

[BotP]

Exactly, a football match tells you exactly who's getting it right. When you win 1-0 yet were outshot 38 - 2 people blame the sim. It's actually training and tactical mastery that's got efficiency out of your players =P

theme_dreamer wrote:

Absolutely 100% agree! The only way to truly settle the differences of opinion is to send eleven men out onto the football pitch and let a random number generator decide ;) Either way it is nice to hear the different opinions and consider them against my own.

Now I'm off to train up my youth to 10 in every skill so I don't have to think anymore :)

Exactly, a football match tells you exactly who's getting it right. When you win 1-0 yet were outshot 38 - 2 people blame the sim. It's actually training and tactical mastery that's got efficiency out of your players =P

 

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