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25-05-2022 02:21
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Season 82 · Week 8 · Day 51
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The moment arrived!

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[FLUSA]
President
He came to the club as a 16 y/old youngster and after training for 13 seasons, the moment has arrived in which he finally made his debut on "Los Buitres", it took him effort & hard work, his younger years went by without stepping on the pitch, many times he thought of quitting to become a chef or a flight attendant but he stick with football and now that he just turned 29 y/old his moment of glory is finally here, behold one of the top MLS strikers!

Spencer Carlisle

Age: 30

SpeedSpSpeed: 7(7)
StaminaStStamina: 7(7)
Play IntelligencePIPlay Intelligence: 8(8)
PassingPaPassing: 7(7)
ShootingShShooting: 9(9)
HeadingHeHeading: 10(10)
KeepingKeKeeping: 1(1)
Ball ControlBCBall Control: 8(8)
TacklingTaTackling: 5(5)
Aerial PassingAPAerial Passing: 3(3)
Set PlaysSPSet Plays: 1(1)
ExperienceExExperience: 9(9)
FormFoForm: 9(9)
Total Skill Balls    66


I mean... he still not there with 8 experience but he's already 29 so I figured I give him a go before he starts deteriorating next season and starts thinking of retirement, his career will be short but hopefully sweet.
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Re: The moment arrived!

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[FLUSA]
President
Btw, it'll be cool if players could reach 9 experience at around 24 y/old if they play youth competitions... this guy played on my U18/U21/U23 and he'll start deteriorating before he gains his 9th ball.

The combo of slow experience gaining, importance of experience in the game and early deteriorations in speed/stamina is just deadly.

Re: The moment arrived!

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[Eesti]
President
Didin't you place him to senior bench when he became 24-year old? So far I thought that experience gaining speed isn't related to training speed. I have a very slow trainer, currently 25-year old, with only 56 balls in total, and he has 8,5 balls in experience.

Konrad Rihma

Age: 26



But your players experience in oddly low I must say!

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[AUS]
President
evosa wrote:
Didin't you place him to senior bench when he became 24-year old? So far I thought that experience gaining speed isn't related to training speed. I have a very slow trainer, currently 25-year old, with only 56 balls in total, and he has 8,5 balls in experience.

Konrad Rihma

Age: 26



But your players experience in oddly low I must say!


I have definitely noticed a correlation in youth trading speed stars and how fast they gain experience balls

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[FLUSA]
President
evosa wrote:
Didin't you place him to senior bench when he became 24-year old? So far I thought that experience gaining speed isn't related to training speed. I have a very slow trainer, currently 25-year old, with only 56 balls in total, and he has 8,5 balls in experience.


Oh he's not the only one... but on the other hand I can't put 10 players on the bench when I need space for real subs to use in game. They gain their experience on friendly games which is the only thing they're good for at 24 y/old. Also keep in mind that the more time they expend at TC, the less experience they'll gain so it's either gaining experience or using TCs.

Zackary Hines

Age: 30

SpeedSpSpeed: 7(7)
StaminaStStamina: 8(8)
Play IntelligencePIPlay Intelligence: 8(8)
PassingPaPassing: 8(8)
ShootingShShooting: 9(9)
HeadingHeHeading: 4(4)
KeepingKeKeeping: 1(1)
Ball ControlBCBall Control: 8(8)
TacklingTaTackling: 10(10)
Aerial PassingAPAerial Passing: 8(8)
Set PlaysSPSet Plays: 5(5)
ExperienceExExperience: 9(9)
FormFoForm: 9(9)
Total Skill Balls    76


Morgan Becerra

Age: 30

SpeedSpSpeed: 8(8)
StaminaStStamina: 7(7)
Play IntelligencePIPlay Intelligence: 7(7)
PassingPaPassing: 7(7)
ShootingShShooting: 10(10)
HeadingHeHeading: 8(8)
KeepingKeKeeping: 3(3)
Ball ControlBCBall Control: 6(6)
TacklingTaTackling: 4(4)
Aerial PassingAPAerial Passing: 6(6)
Set PlaysSPSet Plays: 2(2)
ExperienceExExperience: 8(8)
FormFoForm: 9(9)
Total Skill Balls    68


One of them is playing on the NT despite having 8 balls in experience because we don't have much better.

Before all the game ruining changes I used to take chances on young players from my youth squad and from the market, if they had enough experience at 28 y/old it was ok as they might still have 6/7 seasons on them, I even won the MLS with an all-american self trained team but to be honest I just closed my youth academy (kept 1 youth really) and stopped training altogether as it become extremely boring, between players not having enough experience until they're too old & deteriorations in speed/stamina hitting them at 30 y/old which means most will only have 1 or 2 seasons to play, combined with the new tinder scout system in which you just flip players until you get one with a good star combo + people only caring about stars when you sell a players.... just killed all enjoyment from training for me.

Re: The moment arrived!

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Some of my teams examples of xp.

Cant tell what went wrong with their xp gain. ( bought players )
27yo 9.00xp 3* training
26yo 9.25xp 1* training | this actually pretty optimal xp gain.
26yo 8.50xp 3* training
23yo 5.50xp 3* training
21yo 4.25xp 2* training

All their career they have played 2 league and atleast 3 friendly games a week outside of training camp period.
24yo 8.00xp 2* training
24yo 7.75xp 2* training
23yo 6.50xp 2* training
22yo 5.75xp 2* training
22yo 5.75xp 3* training
21yo 4.75xp 1* training
20yo 4.00xp 1* training

23yo 7.25xp 3* training | No camps after 19yo

My homegrown players have way more experience than the bought ones. Slight differences on my homegrown players might be playing 4 friendlies instead of 3. I think experience gain is pretty much tied to the form cycle it also updates on tuesdays. 2 league and 3-4 friendlies a week and your players should be looking like Konrad by the age of 25 in the experience perspective.

Could it be that you do something wrong from the start, I saw Miki Moco 2.xx xp in your team aswell my graduates sits at

3.50xp 1* training
3.25xp 3* training
3.00xp 3* training

My 24yo players have more xp than one of your 29yo?

Re: The moment arrived!

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I'm trying to understand how those two players are financially worth it?

11 years wages are huge. That's around 800k and then maybe any training camps.

Hines I'd say is definitely worth it. But surely you played him before 29. The other one wasn't worth it? Were you expecting him to get better?

Re: The moment arrived!

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[AUS]
President
^ also agree with this. Carrying dead weight (that’s expensive) for no real gain.

Re: The moment arrived!

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[FLUSA]
President
I kept Spencer just because he was a top scorer at U18/U21/U23 and figured he might have some hidden skills, now he played 2 games on the MLS, my team scored 6 goals in the 2 games, 5 of the 6 goals where scored by him, he gets replaced at minute 65 by the way but his replacement only scored 1 goal in 2 games.

Re: The moment arrived!

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[FLUSA]
President
jere92 wrote:
Could it be that you do something wrong from the start, I saw Miki Moco 2.xx xp in your team aswell my graduates sits at

3.50xp 1* training
3.25xp 3* training
3.00xp 3* training

My 24yo players have more xp than one of your 29yo?


I neglected my youth squad this past season so he didn't play as many friendly games as he would usually have, most youths graduate at 3XP

Problem is, good players don't get enough experience as I need to send them to TC until they're 24 y/old , I have some mediocre players that didn't go that much to TC an they're at 7 experience but still, won't have 9 experience until around 26?

Re: The moment arrived!

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[FLUSA]
President
Just to be clear, the last player I bought for my first team was:

11/20/2020 Mannuel Batistuta Inter de Guayaquil FC -2 499 000

And I have about $36M which is not a fortune this days but it's more than enough.

I always run a self suficient team but all the changes in the past few years like deteriorations at early age & new scout basically limited the game to train to sell, buy players that are 28y/old, sell them when they're 29 y/old and expend hours in the market and personally is not my style of play and just don't like it, that's the reason why this past 2 seasons my team has been on auto-pilot as game got kind of ruined for me.

That's not saying other people might enjoy the changes.

One thing that would be cool if you could choose the youth system you want, either new scout with less H4 players like it is now or old scout with more H4 players like before.

Deteriorations still an issue though.
Edited: 11-01-2022 14:03
Total edits: 1

Re: The moment arrived!

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[FLUSA]
President
Furthermore... my current squad is all-American and homegrown players or "no future" players that I purchased when they were 19 y/old and trained up myself.

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[FSSMZ]
President
Players should gain experience a little bit faster. Or maybe there should be some kind of bonus if the player is homegrown.

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I was under the impression that world leagues & U23/21/18 leagues were meant to also count towards experience?

If not & given I only prioritize my seniors I’ll definitely be cutting back!

Also agree re correlation between training speed & exp gain. I’ve got a 24 year old on 8 exp who has only benched the last 2 seasons.

Re: The moment arrived!

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I cant understand this request of increasing exp gain. Its greed surely. If you don't have space to bench them then you have too many senior players. That just isn't required. So you no doubt want a profit or you want a constant stream of a full 11 players with 10 exp.

There has to be some give? Nor should players gain more xp for world leagues that you pay for. The gulf is already huge.

Imo exp is well balanced. I have 25year olds on 9 exp being involved in the 16 players twice a week and friendlies. The odd cup game etc.

I feel you all want players with exp 10 at 23 or 24. That's just not appropriate at all.

The one argument I could see is to nerf the multiplier exp gives.

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[FLUSA]
President
k33n3y wrote:
I cant understand this request of increasing exp gain. Its greed surely. If you don't have space to bench them then you have too many senior players. That just isn't required. So you no doubt want a profit or you want a constant stream of a full 11 players with 10 exp.


If you want to profit, you buy 19 y/olds with good scout, give them two TCs and sell at 21 y/old, my MLS friend flaco made about $70M profit in just 2/3 seasons just by doing that. If you want to make profit, you have to treat players as merchandise and flip them fast for profit... so no, the opposite of greed, there's no money to be made in training your own players for your own club, I just like the challenge of having a self-trained squad and competing at the top level with that, I mean... people said it was impossible to compete at top level when we could only have 3 foreign players and I won a Champions Cup with only 1 foreign player in my squad, so I just like the challenge because I get bored if I'm not challenged.

k33n3y wrote:
There has to be some give? Nor should players gain more xp for world leagues that you pay for. The gulf is already huge. .


I'd say 70% of the people plays the youth leagues just so their players gain experience, there's no money to be made on them and is debatable if players actually gain experience on youth leagues. All my youths play them and some play U21 and U23 at the same time and some still reach the age of 24 y/old with 6 experience.

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[FLUSA]
President
And the main problem I'd say are deteriorations, unless you compete at a lower level most players won't be usable until they're at least around 27 y/old, then 3 seasons later they get destroyed by speed/stamina deteriorations unless they have 10/10 or 9/10

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[AUS]
President
^ World leagues for U21 and U23 will further be the death of the senior team.

Having a senior team just seems pointless these days. The game has ruined all prestige that the senior team and titles once had by replicating these with Uxx and giving the same rewards.

It’s not profitable, get simmed just as much and there’s no money to be made and of course deteriorations. Don’t know why you’d have a senior team and it’s really sad. I addressed this years ago that something needed to be done to make sure senior team is the most prestigious competitions and titles to make people want to have them and strive for excellence there. The game got money hungry and people too naive to see the damage it’s done.

Long story short, senior teams are a dying breed and the minority which is just crazy. The game lost its whole foundation by going crazy with Uxx leagues

Re: The moment arrived!

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[FLUSA]
President
There are many problems with senior competitions and it seems every change introduced into the game is detrimental to them.

There's no progression from U23 into senior teams, when a player turns 24 y/old he won't have 9/10 experience so there's no way you can insert the player into your senior squad so you have to either sell your 24 y/olds or carry dead weight for a few seasons, meaning most people will have to choose between running a Uxx team or running a senior team and the profitable option is obvious, with Uxx you have twice the rewards as seniors (u18/u23), you have lower salaries, no retirements, no deteriorations and you can get most your money back or even make good profit by selling at 24 y/old, so basically you make lots of money each season as your team is recyclable and your expenses are low.

Then as if all this wasn't enough to kill senior competitions, they had to make a change no one requested, deteriorations at 30 y/old on speed/stamina, why would anyone think that's a good idea? That's just like the final nail on the coffin of senior competitions.

Personally I have my team on autopilot until I decide how to move forward, don't want to buy seniors players as it's a waste of money and also I don't enjoy Uxx competitions, I tried to like them and made it to the top world division on U18 & 1st on U23 at one point but they are just not my thing, I liked training players and finding hidden gems on the market but all that got ruined for me with the new scout system too so I guess all I can do is keep my team on maintenance mode and wait for positive changes in the game that allow me to play in a way I can enjoy it more.

Re: The moment arrived!

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[FLUSA]
President
I think one problem is experience has too much weight in the game, instead of fixing that problem they decided to make senior players deteriorate on speed/stamina which didn't solve the problem at all but created a new one because even with deteriorations in MZ, this team:



Will easily beat this team:

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Think ive just been on the back end of this. Team 14 days old just easily beat me. He somehow managed to put down 600k plus in transfers. Weird

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[FLUSA]
President
k33n3y wrote:
Think ive just been on the back end of this. Team 14 days old just easily beat me. He somehow managed to put down 600k plus in transfers. Weird


You probably mean this game?: https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1279837117&tid=139824

And your team is the yellow one:



So not really surprising? The formation you're playing doesn't work in MZ, I didn't watch your game but I assume it's not a decoy formation, your opponent is playing wings and teams look about similar strenght so he should win easily.

If you want to get better results you need to get a winger, get a striker with good heading, play 4 in the back and start using wings.

Re: The moment arrived!

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I have players like that.
I don't think that they will play before their 26-27 years.

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[FLUSA]
President
chucky06 wrote:
^ also agree with this. Carrying dead weight (that’s expensive) for no real gain.


I think is debatable, the reason I kept this player is because he always seemed to have something extra when he was U18/U21/U23 and he always scored, I always believed on the theory that some players have "hidden skills" (and this was confirmed to be true recently by crew) so that's the reason I kept the player.

Did the gamble pay off? I think it did, I used him up to U23, then I must have invested $1M on salaries on the 6 seasons he was dead weight, I'm not sure I could have gotten a player for $1M that I could use on my team to be honest and he still should play at least 1 more season. He plays 65 minutes per game and still came out 2nd top scorer on the MLS which I managed to win with one game to spare, despite having an All-American home trained team so I guess is debatable and not everyone will agree, but I'm happy with the results.

Edited: 16-03-2022 21:10
Total edits: 1

Re: The moment arrived!

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Nice one darkline.

Slightly different and very experienced managers told me to rid myself of a 9 ball striker whom I bought for 20k. Fast forward 3 seasons and I just sold him for 915k.

Ignoring wings.

I think the beauty is people can see skill in a lot of footballers id they compliment their team and other players skills.

Congrats on title.

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"Last time my starting 11 played a friendly match was in 2006 😁"

Bit late but quote from Darkline from another thread...

Might explain why his 29yo players have 8 experience... please give friendlies a try.

Plenty of experienced managers have seen no difference in players experience. Their players play friendlies. I think your players might be only oddities that have 8xp in that age and well we all know the reason..

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[FLUSA]
President
Why would I play my starting 11 on friendly games and risk injuries? Is the players that are NOT in my starting 11 that have problems with experience.

It's a combination of issues, issue #1 is that I send players up to 23 y/old and sometimes even older to TC so they're good enough for my team, issue #2 is that because they expend time at TC they're not playing enough games to win experience, #3 is that when they turn 24 y/old they're still no good enough and they're a bit short on experience, issue #4 is that I can't put them on the bench as I need better/older players instead, so the 24 y/olds are limited to playing friendlies only and therefore, they struggle to get experience.

It's a catch 22, if I don't send them to TC they will have experience but won't be good enough until they're 28 y/old, if I send them to TC then they will be good enough but won't have enough experience until they're 28 y/old anyway.

Only workarounds is what everyone else does, train players for the market, sell them at 20 y/old to managers that only play Uxx and pay crazy amounts of money, use the money to buy old players that will last you 3/4 seasons and keep repeating the cycle.... that's the only way to play MZ for 99% of the managers due to all the limitations of the game, but I just don't like playing like that so I take a harder and more complex route, I like training players knowing that I can make them good enough for my team or the NT in the future, as a matter of fact I have a guy that I paid $1, another I paid $50K and an ex-youth on the senior NT at the moment.

Anyway, my point is that is a shame that multiple changes made to the game like deteriorations at 30, Uxx competitions being more profitable than seniors, etc. etc., eliminated options and forced 99% of the managers to play just one way.

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Evosa created cool table in another experience related thread.


Age Experience
16 0
17 1
18 2
19 3
20 4
21 5
22 6
23 7
24 8
25 9
26 10

If your players aren't able to fit into these numbers they start to decline in worth.

Some examples. I could show way more of these but then the whole message would be full of them.

Lech Ikalewicz

Age: 27



Attended TC:s every season until the age of 25

Onni Nurmi

Age: 25



Attended TC:s every season this far.

Reima Andersson

Age: 25



Attended TC:s every season this far.

Their training graphs are open so go look they didn't have any issues gather experience even tho they attended TC:s every season even past that age of 23. So your issue#1 and issue#2 is invalid. It's not some of my players go to TC until age of 23 all of them go if they are going to be any use.

If you can't fit players like Onni or Reima in your bench maybe you should get rid of them. You have 5 spots in your senior bench to play league games. 3 subtitutes and 2 spare. Maybe your 24-25yo players can take those 2 spare spots to gather experience or maybe if they have gathered experience normaly maybe they can be your subtitutes with 9 experience or something.

But anyway clearly you are neglecting your players need of matches and until you fix that issue your players aren't generating enough experience.

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[FLUSA]
President
But on your bench you have 4 22 y/old players and 1 20 y/old player, so I imagine the 24 y/olds were on your bench when they were younger, also the main issue is with players I got from the market, homegrown players at 26 y/old are usually at 8/9 experience.

In any case, to me the whole thing about experience is that is poor game mechanics and overall is an attribute that doesn't make much sense, in real life a 19/20 y/old can play at top level if he's good enough like Mbappe when in MZ that's just impossible.

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22yo players on my bench
Taavetti Vihervä

Age: 23

Juha-Pekka Eklund

Age: 23

Jani Kankaanpää

Age: 23



21yo players not on my bench
Ahti Olkkonen

Age: 22

Jarkko Lääkkö

Age: 22



Their experience expectation goes like the table above shows. You are just making points that doesn't matter. If your players don't play 2 league games per week you are missing experience. These guys get those games from youth leagues already. If your players stop getting those important 2 league games when they turn 24yo they start to decline in experience. If you don't play youth leagues you need to play more friendlies to cover those 2 league games ect.

Imo experience could be removed to give less experienced managers chance to success. Imo this whole thread is just skill issue.

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Or maybe it is ignorance. Core gameplay of this game is friendlies and league games (games that provide players most experience). When you start to upkeep your form with extra games from cups and friendly leagues that dont provide you experience but instead form you end up with the situtiation that Darkline has players with 8xp at The age of 29.

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[FLUSA]
President
Well I won a Champions Cup among other official cups and if I recall correctly 7 or 8 of my players were homegrown as I was never a big fan of splashing money in the market to buy/sell players, not to mention that usually the USA NT is full of my own homegrown players, I've been slacking a bit this past 3/4 seasons to be honest since I got bored of the game mechanics, lack of SIM updates and recent changes to training & scouting that kind of ruined the enjoyment of the game for me, so my club is on sort of life support mode at the moment waiting for a new SIM or anything that makes the game more fun which hopefully will eventually happen, but overall I'd say I might be doing something right training players if I managed to win multiple cups barely using the transfer market.

jere92 wrote:
These guys get those games from youth leagues already


Obviously my players play the youth leagues, they actually play 4 youth league games a week as most players on U21 also play U23 and they also play friendly games.....

Anyway, that Spencer guy is from when I was paying more attention to training, so he played U18/U21/U23 leagues and 4 friendly games a week, if not more as sometimes I used to sacrifice form so players would gain experience faster so theoretically he should have more experience, he actually played as a starter this whole season and he still is at 8 experience, so I'm sure not all players gain experience at the same rate.

And anyway you missed the main point, and that is that you can't play a 20/21/22/23 y/old on a senior team because of experience, if you play at the top level you shouldn't be playing anyone with less than 9 experience and therefore even if your players get experience at warp speed, a player won't be able to play senior football until he's 25 y/old... which is ridiculous and the cherry on top is that if you have a player with 8 stamina or speed, he's done at 31 y/old... so he's only usable for 6 seasons, he will expend more time training to be a player than actually playing.

If it was up to me, I'd replace experience with a similar but trainable skill, something like "positioning" or whatever you want to call it, it will give you more control over training and overall the manager would have to make the choice about how to train the skill instead of playing endless friendlies... of course you'd have players maxing on the skill as any other skill, so maybe put less weight on it than it currently has.

As a matter of fact, I'd replace "set plays" too... that's a useless skill that could be fun if somehow is replaced with something usable.

Re: The moment arrived!

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Well yeah maybe experience could be reworked/removed, but as it is now it is mandatory to play 3-4 friendlies and 2 league games to keep up with that experience gain.

Well if players have their senior careers from 25 to 32. Its 8 seasons and imo its something you can work with. It is pretty rare to players have 10/10 or even 10/9 on speed and stamina so most of the players fall short when they turn 33. My team is also self trained players mostly. Couple of direct transfers from market to opening 11.

My team is still under progression to getting that sweet spot of 16 players at +24 age if you have more than that someone doesn't fit into league games anymore and starts to lose important games and experience gain. Every player needs to play 2 league and 3-4 friendlies per week if they want to upkeep normal experience gain. If players spend 1-2 seasons in your senior bench gaining experience before hitting 9 experience its not that bad. That ofc requiers you to have gained that experience for them all their career that far but if you ignore their need of experience at any point they start to fall behind.

You don't need to play U23 on senior games they have their own leagues and cups before they enter seniors.

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[FLUSA]
President
jere92 wrote:
Well yeah maybe experience could be reworked/removed, but as it is now it is mandatory to play 3-4 friendlies and 2 league games to keep up with that experience gain.


I know that and I also know that if you play 10 friendly games a week + Uxx league games with the same lineup, your player will obviously be exausted but will gain experience at a faster rate.

In any case I think that the players should have more trainable skills so you can have more options on how you want to train a player for a certain role but I realize that's not going to happen as it should involve modifying the SIM to accomodate the new skills and realistically I just don't think this SIM will ever be worked on, so the easiest shortcut to at least introduce a new mechanic would be replacing experience with a similar trainable skill as that should be pretty easy as it doesn't involve modifying the SIM at all, it's only involves converting a non-trainable skill to a trainable skill.. maybe retool form too to a trainable skill, I mean what's the point of having form in the game? Where's the skill or fun on making sure your players don't play more than 6 games a week?
 
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