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Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By civilu - 19-09-2017 16:49

[RAF]
President

I really don't know MZ like I used to (if I ever!) but I have a big predicament in developing my squad further, which I found out, when trying to have an answer, is something of general interest as no one actually knows the answer. Here goes: [b]When a defender heads the ball away, ball which was meant for the attacker he is marking, ball crossed (aerial passing in wings play), what skill matters? Heading? Tackling? Both? Maybe with a boost from inteligence?[/b] For me it seems both answers could be correct: - heading because it's a header that the defender executes at that moment; - tackling because actually he tackles the opposing striker, even if in the air. I am curious what you guys think and, especially, what is your basis for any opinion on the matter. Thanks! PS: I think this is better suited for MZ Talk since it's more than just a technical question but a general interest topic in terms of gameplay and strategies and player development. And MZ Talk is pretty [i]dead[/i] anyway so I don't think another topic would be a drag. :)I really don't know MZ like I used to (if I ever!) but I have a big predicament in developing my squad further, which I found out, when trying to have an answer, is something of general interest as no one actually knows the answer. Here goes:

When a defender heads the ball away, ball which was meant for the attacker he is marking, ball crossed (aerial passing in wings play), what skill matters? Heading? Tackling? Both? Maybe with a boost from inteligence?

For me it seems both answers could be correct:
- heading because it's a header that the defender executes at that moment;
- tackling because actually he tackles the opposing striker, even if in the air.

I am curious what you guys think and, especially, what is your basis for any opinion on the matter.

Thanks!

PS:
I think this is better suited for MZ Talk since it's more than just a technical question but a general interest topic in terms of gameplay and strategies and player development. And MZ Talk is pretty dead anyway so I don't think another topic would be a drag. :)

 

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Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By dowopado - 19-09-2017 18:44

[BotP]

Aaah, a question I have tossed around inside my head for a long time...probably ever since wing play became a dominate tactic. Anyhow, here are my conclusions based on defenders defending crosses in wing attacking tactics. I currently have two center backs that defend against crosses for header goals...one has 5 heading, 9 tackling, 6 pi...the other has 2 heading, 10 tackling, 8 pi(unmaxed). Since, many opponent tactics I defend against will have rules to switch sides in their attacks both defenders get expose to crosses for headers fairly equal. The stats provide the CB with 10 tackling and 8 pi better results which was a surprise to me...and this is over a period of about 2 months of matches. And he has performed much better than another player I used have in his place that had 9 tackling, 7 heading and 6 pi. So, I feel heading is important but I would give the edge to high tackling and pi. Of course this could be disputed because I have never had a defender with high heading and pi skills to test. Also, maybe ball control could be a factor as well since both of my current CBs have 9 and 8 in bc while the one I had before had only 6 bc.Aaah, a question I have tossed around inside my head for a long time...probably ever since wing play became a dominate tactic. Anyhow, here are my conclusions based on defenders defending crosses in wing attacking tactics.

I currently have two center backs that defend against crosses for header goals...one has 5 heading, 9 tackling, 6 pi...the other has 2 heading, 10 tackling, 8 pi(unmaxed). Since, many opponent tactics I defend against will have rules to switch sides in their attacks both defenders get expose to crosses for headers fairly equal. The stats provide the CB with 10 tackling and 8 pi better results which was a surprise to me...and this is over a period of about 2 months of matches. And he has performed much better than another player I used have in his place that had 9 tackling, 7 heading and 6 pi.

So, I feel heading is important but I would give the edge to high tackling and pi. Of course this could be disputed because I have never had a defender with high heading and pi skills to test. Also, maybe ball control could be a factor as well since both of my current CBs have 9 and 8 in bc while the one I had before had only 6 bc.

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By evosa - 19-09-2017 21:31

[LEGEND]

I belive that heading of defenders depends on combination of skills: speed,stamina, play int., heading, tackling. Play int. = positioning - how fast player understands where the cross is going to land Speed - stamina = if player has high speed than he is most likely to reach there in time. Tackling - I belive that tackling does not only effect how well player can tackle, but also tackling skill helps the player to understand what would be the best thing to do(head the ball or not) About tackling - I developed the theory couple of months a go when I purchased a winger with 9 passing. He seems to make "better" decisions whether to cross or play the pass from ground. I guesss best way of seeing the theory in effect is U18 level. Pay attention to players with low and high shooting skill. The one with higher shooting seems to be making better choices regarding shooting. Low shooting players shoot from odd places[sometimes(rarely) you can see pretty cool goals for MZ (one of them on MZ facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/ManagerZone/videos/10154083352804054/]I belive that heading of defenders depends on combination of skills: speed,stamina, play int., heading, tackling.

Play int. = positioning - how fast player understands where the cross is going to land

Speed - stamina = if player has high speed than he is most likely to reach there in time.

Tackling - I belive that tackling does not only effect how well player can tackle, but also tackling skill helps the player to understand what would be the best thing to do(head the ball or not)

About tackling - I developed the theory couple of months a go when I purchased a winger with 9 passing. He seems to make "better" decisions whether to cross or play the pass from ground.

I guesss best way of seeing the theory in effect is U18 level. Pay attention to players with low and high shooting skill.

The one with higher shooting seems to be making better choices regarding shooting.

Low shooting players shoot from odd places[sometimes(rarely) you can see pretty cool goals for MZ (one of them on MZ facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/ManagerZone/videos/10154083352804054/]

Edited: 19-09-2017 21:52
Total edits: 1

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By scruttino - 20-09-2017 11:08

[AUSNZ]

Tackling on the ground isn't the same as heading in the air because defenders never challenge a striker for the ball in the air. All a defender can do is try intercept inaccurate passes and doing their best when the ball hits the groundTackling on the ground isn't the same as heading in the air because defenders never challenge a striker for the ball in the air.

All a defender can do is try intercept inaccurate passes and doing their best when the ball hits the ground

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By moopaman - 21-09-2017 05:31

[Canada]

I'd imagine PI would be way more important than tackling. Emphasis on imagineI'd imagine PI would be way more important than tackling. Emphasis on imagine

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By scruttino - 21-09-2017 09:27

[AUSNZ]

PI is an amplifier skill, more is always better regardless of the position on the field

moopaman wrote:

I'd imagine PI would be way more important than tackling. Emphasis on imagine

PI is an amplifier skill, more is always better regardless of the position on the field

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By scruttino - 21-09-2017 09:34

[AUSNZ]

What makes a big difference is how far out you can harass an opposing winger to stop their run before passing. As this will usually result in a pass back to the midfield or supporting striker, giving your defence a chance to tackle and win the ball back

scruttino wrote:

Tackling on the ground isn't the same as heading in the air because defenders never challenge a striker for the ball in the air.

All a defender can do is try intercept inaccurate passes and doing their best when the ball hits the ground

What makes a big difference is how far out you can harass an opposing winger to stop their run before passing. As this will usually result in a pass back to the midfield or supporting striker, giving your defence a chance to tackle and win the ball back

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By aldebaran - 21-09-2017 11:49

+1 to both of scruttino's posts+1 to both of scruttino's posts

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By superdad123 - 21-09-2017 20:19

[ENG]

Heading is more like passing in the air.a striker with high skill in heading can place his header past the keeper.Heading is more like passing in the air.a striker with high skill in heading can place his header past the keeper.

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By scruttino - 22-09-2017 02:27

[AUSNZ]

It's why 5 defenders, 3 mids and 2 strikers (one winger & one striker) at the back is such an effective tactic against wing attacks. Because you always have 2 people on each wing to defender against a winger and 3 other defenders to slide over as they get taken wider out of position. It means that the pass to your supporting striker if your winger get stopped before the byline is not an option (because he isn't there) and the 50/50 pass will either go straight to your main striker generating a long range shot on goal or back to your midfield. You also require a good understanding of 10 men alternative tactics and who drops back a line when you get a straight red card. But if you don't get a straight red card the tactic is almost unstoppable, because you can sub off your yellow carded players and it's the reason why many top National Teams use it in the big games.

scruttino wrote:

What makes a big difference is how far out you can harass an opposing winger to stop their run before passing. As this will usually result in a pass back to the midfield or supporting striker, giving your defence a chance to tackle and win the ball back

It's why 5 defenders, 3 mids and 2 strikers (one winger & one striker) at the back is such an effective tactic against wing attacks. Because you always have 2 people on each wing to defender against a winger and 3 other defenders to slide over as they get taken wider out of position.

It means that the pass to your supporting striker if your winger get stopped before the byline is not an option (because he isn't there) and the 50/50 pass will either go straight to your main striker generating a long range shot on goal or back to your midfield.

You also require a good understanding of 10 men alternative tactics and who drops back a line when you get a straight red card. But if you don't get a straight red card the tactic is almost unstoppable, because you can sub off your yellow carded players and it's the reason why many top National Teams use it in the big games.

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By civilu - 28-09-2017 09:41

[RAF]
President

So, what is it, guys? I still donțt get it! A lot of good posts above yet none which actually answers the exact question: [b]tackling or heading[/b] for a central defender against an opposing attacker on wings? PS: Of course pi helps with positioning and speed & stamina help with the harassement yet when that moment comes, the cross, what is needed?So, what is it, guys? I still donțt get it! A lot of good posts above yet none which actually answers the exact question: tackling or heading for a central defender against an opposing attacker on wings?

PS: Of course pi helps with positioning and speed & stamina help with the harassement yet when that moment comes, the cross, what is needed?

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By aldebaran - 28-09-2017 10:13

concentrate your efforts to stopping the winger and not the striker since my CBs don't have enough @heading but they're able to "Tackle" a striker receiving a winger's pass (not all the time of course), I'm inclined to chose tackling now, If I had the "ball height" indicator in 2d (like in analyzer) I might be bothered to gather some statsconcentrate your efforts to stopping the winger and not the striker

scruttino wrote:

What makes a big difference is how far out you can harass an opposing winger to stop their run before passing. As this will usually result in a pass back to the midfield or supporting striker, giving your defence a chance to tackle and win the ball back

since my CBs don't have enough @heading but they're able to "Tackle" a striker receiving a winger's pass (not all the time of course), I'm inclined to chose tackling

now, If I had the "ball height" indicator in 2d (like in analyzer) I might be bothered to gather some stats

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By aldebaran - 28-09-2017 10:16

of course my CBs could be able to tackle the SC, just because he is too slow/not good enough, to take advantage of the winger's pass then it has nothing to do with me having better tackling, but it has to do with the opposition having lousy striker :Pof course my CBs could be able to tackle the SC, just because he is too slow/not good enough, to take advantage of the winger's pass

then it has nothing to do with me having better tackling, but it has to do with the opposition having lousy striker :P

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By darkline - 28-09-2017 14:06

[FLUSA]
President

Well, take your pick, from what I've seen heading is just the ability to direct the ball towards your intended target, tackling seems to be effective only to tackle a player with the ball on the ground. So what's better? Both are equally ineffective IMO so it's a tie.... theoretically, Pi should be the more important skill to defend headers, the defender doesn't need to head the ball precisely to his intended target, he just needs to be on the correct position to head it and that's it.

civilu wrote:

So, what is it, guys? I still donțt get it! A lot of good posts above yet none which actually answers the exact question: tackling or heading for a central defender against an opposing attacker on wings?

Well, take your pick, from what I've seen heading is just the ability to direct the ball towards your intended target, tackling seems to be effective only to tackle a player with the ball on the ground.

So what's better? Both are equally ineffective IMO so it's a tie.... theoretically, Pi should be the more important skill to defend headers, the defender doesn't need to head the ball precisely to his intended target, he just needs to be on the correct position to head it and that's it.

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By dowopado - 28-09-2017 18:26

[BotP]

Tackling and PI are more important for CB in defending wing play....why?...because on the average in a wing tactic only about a 1/3rd of the goals, or less, or made from heading...majority of the goals are from the foot...not the head...and the odds for a CB to head away an incoming cross from a striker is very, very low.Tackling and PI are more important for CB in defending wing play....why?...because on the average in a wing tactic only about a 1/3rd of the goals, or less, or made from heading...majority of the goals are from the foot...not the head...and the odds for a CB to head away an incoming cross from a striker is very, very low.

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By scruttino - 29-09-2017 07:45

[AUSNZ]

Tackling first, heading is nice but not essential. Still, more is better than less.Tackling first, heading is nice but not essential. Still, more is better than less.

Re: Tackling vs Heading in WINGS play

By aikaik (Crew) - 29-09-2017 09:46

[MZS]
President

[fpl=183039000][fpl=185102867] I have 10 in both on Tobias just to be sure [;)] Matos on the other hand lacks one in tackling but he compensates with more in speed, stamina, Play int. [:)]

Tobias Lång

Age: 58 (Retired)

Manfredo Matos

Age: 56 (Retired)

I have 10 in both on Tobias just to be sure Matos on the other hand lacks one in tackling but he compensates with more in speed, stamina, Play int.

 

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