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Market is broken?

By darkline - 17-10-2022 21:21

[FLUSA]
President

Just sold all my players and I knew the market was broken due to the scout, but I didn't realize how broken it really is as I've been not trading for a few seasons now. Keepers seem to be worthless, I sold my starter 10 ball keeper for $3, then a 23 y/old 10 ball keeper for $1 and I just fired a 21 y/old keeper as no one bothered to even pay $1 for the guy. Also this guy sold also sold for $1 [img]https://i2.paste.pics/J88QF.png[/img] He's not Maradona but he's almost 8 speed / 9 stamina, good heading/shooting/control and has a few seasons in him, I really expected more than $1. Is the market for senior players so broken that even reasonably good players are worthless now? I'm tempted to challenge myself and see if I can build a new team capable of winning the MLS for less than $100K, might go for it at the end of the season when people discard their deteriorating players as I think it might be doable. In any case, in the past new players would be advised not to invest on old players but all things considered I think that advice doesn't apply anymore.Just sold all my players and I knew the market was broken due to the scout, but I didn't realize how broken it really is as I've been not trading for a few seasons now.

Keepers seem to be worthless, I sold my starter 10 ball keeper for $3, then a 23 y/old 10 ball keeper for $1 and I just fired a 21 y/old keeper as no one bothered to even pay $1 for the guy.

Also this guy sold also sold for $1



He's not Maradona but he's almost 8 speed / 9 stamina, good heading/shooting/control and has a few seasons in him, I really expected more than $1.

Is the market for senior players so broken that even reasonably good players are worthless now? I'm tempted to challenge myself and see if I can build a new team capable of winning the MLS for less than $100K, might go for it at the end of the season when people discard their deteriorating players as I think it might be doable.

In any case, in the past new players would be advised not to invest on old players but all things considered I think that advice doesn't apply anymore.

 

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Re: Market is broken?

By chucky06 - 18-10-2022 06:05

[AUSNZ]
President

Yeh it well and really is. I sold my keeper for $1 who is worth much more than that too. Senior players are becoming worthless unless superstars. Uxx leagues have taken over and scout reports have polarised the marketYeh it well and really is. I sold my keeper for $1 who is worth much more than that too.

Senior players are becoming worthless unless superstars. Uxx leagues have taken over and scout reports have polarised the market

Re: Market is broken?

By sweem (NCA) - 18-10-2022 11:29

Is the absolute "last chance" to make money on a player, to sell them at the age of 23? (So that they can play the last U23 season) until they become worthless at 24? Is there a "peak" age to sell players at?Is the absolute "last chance" to make money on a player, to sell them at the age of 23? (So that they can play the last U23 season) until they become worthless at 24? Is there a "peak" age to sell players at?

Re: Market is broken?

By chucky06 - 18-10-2022 12:18

[AUSNZ]
President

The peak age to sell players at is the end of season when they are 20 about to turn 21. After that time they will never sell for moreThe peak age to sell players at is the end of season when they are 20 about to turn 21. After that time they will never sell for more

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 18-10-2022 12:40

[FLUSA]
President

Well I said many times, Uxx competitions distorted the game and ruined senior competitions, problem with Uxx competitions is that they have the same prizes as a senior competition, so if you only compete on U18/U21/U23 cups and leagues you can make more than twice the money than if you compete on senior competitions. Being competitive on Uxx and senior competitions is almost impossible, you need to choose one or the other, so why would you choose senior competitions over Uxx competitions? The disadvantages of senior competitions are just too many, to have a competitive senior team you need players around 27 to 29 y/old, you buy a 27 y/old and you're almost certain to sell at a loss due to impending deteriorations, players deteriorate at 30 y/old which means you can't mantain a team more than 2/3 seasons and like I said, you'll have to take a big loss when you sell or a total loss if your player retires. Also you have to deal with much higher salaries, a decent senior player will cost you in average $18.000 USD a week, a decent U23 will cost you around $8000 USD a week. Additionally, if after deteriorating your player is still usefull you'll need to pay about $200K to $500K to keep him another season on your team. So resuming Advantages of having a Uxx team 1) You make more money on cups than on seniors 2) You don't deal with deteriorations 3) Players keep improving on training so you make money when you sell your players. Advantages of having a senior team 1) None that I can think off There are many reasons while I'm selling my team, one of them is that senior competitions are ruined and I don't really enjoy Uxx even though I know is were the money is. How to solve this? Not that I would think anyone would care as I've made this suggestions more than once but here we go again. 1) Eliminate deteriorations, just get rid of them and let people enjoy their players. 2) Set minimum retiring age to at least 32 y/old 3) Double the money you get on senior cups, for prizes and for attendance (ticket money) The most hated aspect for me is deteriorations, is like it wasn't enough with all the cons senior competitions already have that they had to introduce the new & improved deteriorations that will make your players turn to crap overnight when they turn 30 y/old, why we even need deteriorations in the game? Is there a single user that plays senior football that likes them?

sweem wrote:

Is the absolute "last chance" to make money on a player, to sell them at the age of 23? (So that they can play the last U23 season) until they become worthless at 24? Is there a "peak" age to sell players at?

Well I said many times, Uxx competitions distorted the game and ruined senior competitions, problem with Uxx competitions is that they have the same prizes as a senior competition, so if you only compete on U18/U21/U23 cups and leagues you can make more than twice the money than if you compete on senior competitions.

Being competitive on Uxx and senior competitions is almost impossible, you need to choose one or the other, so why would you choose senior competitions over Uxx competitions?

The disadvantages of senior competitions are just too many, to have a competitive senior team you need players around 27 to 29 y/old, you buy a 27 y/old and you're almost certain to sell at a loss due to impending deteriorations, players deteriorate at 30 y/old which means you can't mantain a team more than 2/3 seasons and like I said, you'll have to take a big loss when you sell or a total loss if your player retires. Also you have to deal with much higher salaries, a decent senior player will cost you in average $18.000 USD a week, a decent U23 will cost you around $8000 USD a week. Additionally, if after deteriorating your player is still usefull you'll need to pay about $200K to $500K to keep him another season on your team.

So resuming

Advantages of having a Uxx team

1) You make more money on cups than on seniors
2) You don't deal with deteriorations
3) Players keep improving on training so you make money when you sell your players.

Advantages of having a senior team

1) None that I can think off

There are many reasons while I'm selling my team, one of them is that senior competitions are ruined and I don't really enjoy Uxx even though I know is were the money is.

How to solve this? Not that I would think anyone would care as I've made this suggestions more than once but here we go again.

1) Eliminate deteriorations, just get rid of them and let people enjoy their players.
2) Set minimum retiring age to at least 32 y/old
3) Double the money you get on senior cups, for prizes and for attendance (ticket money)

The most hated aspect for me is deteriorations, is like it wasn't enough with all the cons senior competitions already have that they had to introduce the new & improved deteriorations that will make your players turn to crap overnight when they turn 30 y/old, why we even need deteriorations in the game? Is there a single user that plays senior football that likes them?

Re: Market is broken?

By sweem (NCA) - 18-10-2022 12:41

Hmm, basically you can never do that if you want to be somewhat competitive in U21 yourself then. Is it not valuable to also sell a player at maybe 21 (after the season, when they are about to turn 22) for perhaps those who are investing in U23?

chucky06 wrote:

The peak age to sell players at is the end of season when they are 20 about to turn 21. After that time they will never sell for more

Hmm, basically you can never do that if you want to be somewhat competitive in U21 yourself then. Is it not valuable to also sell a player at maybe 21 (after the season, when they are about to turn 22) for perhaps those who are investing in U23?

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 18-10-2022 12:56

[FLUSA]
President

I don't think you lose money if you sell your players when they turn 24 y/old, depending on maxings sometimes you make a bit of money and sometimes you lose a bit. It'll be nice to have some solid stats, maybe at the end of the season I might check the top U23 teams and see how much they're selling their players compared to the purchase price.I don't think you lose money if you sell your players when they turn 24 y/old, depending on maxings sometimes you make a bit of money and sometimes you lose a bit. It'll be nice to have some solid stats, maybe at the end of the season I might check the top U23 teams and see how much they're selling their players compared to the purchase price.

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 18-10-2022 13:06

[FLUSA]
President

Just check the winner of the U23 League https://www.managerzone.com/?p=transfer_history&tid=150734 And the strategy he's using is buying 23 y/olds & selling them at the end of the season. Some players he made money, some he lost, in average I'd say he's either turning in a small profit or breaking even. The other guy I checked is this one https://www.managerzone.com/?p=transfer_history&tid=817751 Current leader of U23 World League, different strategy, he buys 21 y/olds and sells at the end of U23 seasons and this guy is also breaking even. So basically you can run a U21/U23 squad by buying 21 y/old players, sell them when they turn 24 y/old and you break even on the market which is great, because if you build a good team you should get plenty of income from different competitions and if you also run a succesful U18 team, you're all set.Just check the winner of the U23 League

https://www.managerzone.com/?p=transfer_history&tid=150734

And the strategy he's using is buying 23 y/olds & selling them at the end of the season. Some players he made money, some he lost, in average I'd say he's either turning in a small profit or breaking even.

The other guy I checked is this one

https://www.managerzone.com/?p=transfer_history&tid=817751

Current leader of U23 World League, different strategy, he buys 21 y/olds and sells at the end of U23 seasons and this guy is also breaking even.

So basically you can run a U21/U23 squad by buying 21 y/old players, sell them when they turn 24 y/old and you break even on the market which is great, because if you build a good team you should get plenty of income from different competitions and if you also run a succesful U18 team, you're all set.

Re: Market is broken?

By chucky06 - 18-10-2022 14:18

[AUSNZ]
President

I must be doing something wrong then. I bought my last U23 team all as 20 year olds. Sold them at 24 and lost nearly 50% on every player. A few I broke even and a few I made money on but it wasn't the norm. Over the time period I was coming out close to even with U23, U21 and U18 cup runs with additional income.

darkline wrote:

Just check the winner of the U23 League

https://www.managerzone.com/?p=transfer_history&tid=150734

And the strategy he's using is buying 23 y/olds & selling them at the end of the season. Some players he made money, some he lost, in average I'd say he's either turning in a small profit or breaking even.

The other guy I checked is this one

https://www.managerzone.com/?p=transfer_history&tid=817751

Current leader of U23 World League, different strategy, he buys 21 y/olds and sells at the end of U23 seasons and this guy is also breaking even.

So basically you can run a U21/U23 squad by buying 21 y/old players, sell them when they turn 24 y/old and you break even on the market which is great, because if you build a good team you should get plenty of income from different competitions and if you also run a succesful U18 team, you're all set.

I must be doing something wrong then. I bought my last U23 team all as 20 year olds. Sold them at 24 and lost nearly 50% on every player. A few I broke even and a few I made money on but it wasn't the norm.

Over the time period I was coming out close to even with U23, U21 and U18 cup runs with additional income.

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 18-10-2022 14:40

[FLUSA]
President

I need to buy players from certain nationalities I believe, Argentina, Brazil, Turkey, etc... players from Countries with big markets and less room on their senior teams for foreign players.

chucky06 wrote:

I must be doing something wrong then. I bought my last U23 team all as 20 year olds. Sold them at 24 and lost nearly 50% on every player. A few I broke even and a few I made money on but it wasn't the norm.

Over the time period I was coming out close to even with U23, U21 and U18 cup runs with additional income.

I need to buy players from certain nationalities I believe, Argentina, Brazil, Turkey, etc... players from Countries with big markets and less room on their senior teams for foreign players.

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 18-10-2022 14:41

[FLUSA]
President

I mean "you need to buy" not "I need to buy", I'd fix that but I don't have the tools to do it 😁I mean "you need to buy" not "I need to buy", I'd fix that but I don't have the tools to do it 😁

Re: Market is broken?

By deleted_7550185 - 18-10-2022 15:07

The market has just changed. The scouting system made it possible for managers to develop their own ordinary academy which means that ordinary players have no value in the market because everyone can develop them!! The previous scouting system was horrible! You had to make a guess based on three yellow flags for 8000 SEK. So many players were incorrectly trained which made ordinary players go for a lot of money on the transfer. Only extraordinary will go for a lot of money now a days!The market has just changed. The scouting system made it possible for managers to develop their own ordinary academy which means that ordinary players have no value in the market because everyone can develop them!! The previous scouting system was horrible! You had to make a guess based on three yellow flags for 8000 SEK. So many players were incorrectly trained which made ordinary players go for a lot of money on the transfer. Only extraordinary will go for a lot of money now a days!

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 18-10-2022 15:24

[FLUSA]
President

With the previous scouting system you needed to actually do the hard work of investigating, researching and know what you're doing, that allowed me to win the MLS and some cups with a homegrown team and the Champions Cup with about 8 homegrown players. Also about 40% of the USA NT players came from my youth academy, this is supposed to be a game of skill and not pure luck and training youth players required more skill than luck. Now is all luck and no skill, the only skill required is pressing the mouse button to swap youth players and then you either get a player with a good scout or you don't and because the market only cares about the scout report, you can be lucky and be gifted with a player that you can sell for $10M without having to do any work or you don't. Personally I find it boring, I hate to rely just on luck and I'm not very lucky on top of that, last season I closed my youth school before the start because I didn't got any youth worth keeping, got a new batch of U16 players and none of them was decent, swapped them for 18 y/olds with customization and again not a single one, got rid of the U18s and got a new batch of U16, again not a single decent player, closed the academy again, got a new full batch this season, not a single one worth it and just kept the academy open so I have players to complete games but I'm not even bothering with training them. On the other hand, some people seems to get 4HP-2LP players, not sure why but if it's a 100% random it seems a bit against probability that some people can consistenly get a few 4HP/2LP players out of 10 players and I can't get a single one out of maybe 150 players? I think I got 2 or 3 4HP/1LP and none of them were useful due to a horrible LP

cm33 wrote:

The market has just changed. The scouting system made it possible for managers to develop their own ordinary academy which means that ordinary players have no value in the market because everyone can develop them!! The previous scouting system was horrible! You had to make a guess based on three yellow flags for 8000 SEK. So many players were incorrectly trained which made ordinary players go for a lot of money on the transfer. Only extraordinary will go for a lot of money now a days!

With the previous scouting system you needed to actually do the hard work of investigating, researching and know what you're doing, that allowed me to win the MLS and some cups with a homegrown team and the Champions Cup with about 8 homegrown players. Also about 40% of the USA NT players came from my youth academy, this is supposed to be a game of skill and not pure luck and training youth players required more skill than luck.

Now is all luck and no skill, the only skill required is pressing the mouse button to swap youth players and then you either get a player with a good scout or you don't and because the market only cares about the scout report, you can be lucky and be gifted with a player that you can sell for $10M without having to do any work or you don't.

Personally I find it boring, I hate to rely just on luck and I'm not very lucky on top of that, last season I closed my youth school before the start because I didn't got any youth worth keeping, got a new batch of U16 players and none of them was decent, swapped them for 18 y/olds with customization and again not a single one, got rid of the U18s and got a new batch of U16, again not a single decent player, closed the academy again, got a new full batch this season, not a single one worth it and just kept the academy open so I have players to complete games but I'm not even bothering with training them.

On the other hand, some people seems to get 4HP-2LP players, not sure why but if it's a 100% random it seems a bit against probability that some people can consistenly get a few 4HP/2LP players out of 10 players and I can't get a single one out of maybe 150 players? I think I got 2 or 3 4HP/1LP and none of them were useful due to a horrible LP

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 18-10-2022 15:26

[FLUSA]
President

And the market changed because of the scout and because of Uxx competitions that made senior competitions not viable.And the market changed because of the scout and because of Uxx competitions that made senior competitions not viable.

Re: Market is broken?

By sweem (NCA) - 18-10-2022 15:59

I also noticed this. On this note, is there a way to see if there has been any champion in U21/U23 from a "minor" country? It feels like a huge disadvantage being from a small nation. The own player market, to find bargains etc is impossible, so relying solely on the "lucky" youth swap system where you need not only 1 player with 4HP/2LP, but probably 3-4 of them to make up for the lack of local market.

darkline wrote:

I need to buy players from certain nationalities I believe, Argentina, Brazil, Turkey, etc... players from Countries with big markets and less room on their senior teams for foreign players.

I also noticed this. On this note, is there a way to see if there has been any champion in U21/U23 from a "minor" country? It feels like a huge disadvantage being from a small nation. The own player market, to find bargains etc is impossible, so relying solely on the "lucky" youth swap system where you need not only 1 player with 4HP/2LP, but probably 3-4 of them to make up for the lack of local market.

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 18-10-2022 19:06

[FLUSA]
President

You can get lots of stats here: https://mzlive.eu Lots of historical information but I couldn't find info regarding U23 leagues, they do have the most expensive U23 teams at the moment. In any case, there is a dissadvantage of being from a small nation, even when you can get more foreign players you're still at dissadvantage as you would need some players for U21 & U23, ideally you would use the 21 y/olds, train them, use them again at U23 and if you home Country doesn't have a half decent market you'll be limited.You can get lots of stats here: https://mzlive.eu

Lots of historical information but I couldn't find info regarding U23 leagues, they do have the most expensive U23 teams at the moment.

In any case, there is a dissadvantage of being from a small nation, even when you can get more foreign players you're still at dissadvantage as you would need some players for U21 & U23, ideally you would use the 21 y/olds, train them, use them again at U23 and if you home Country doesn't have a half decent market you'll be limited.

Re: Market is broken?

By sweem (NCA) - 18-10-2022 20:15

Thanks for this link, interesting one. Well, that does not sound hopeful :D as I recently I've been thinking of making an "effort" to be competitive on U21 level. Currently my core are all 19 year olds, about 3-4 local players are actually good, and I've spent some big money on expensive foreign players, which I am certain to make profit on. I did some digging, but did not see a minor country winning any U21 or U23 titles or having even the most valuable teams. Closest was Lithuania having two representatives on place 53 and 56 in terms of most valuable U21 teams. The rest were all the big nations. So, quite a challenge :) I dare to say impossible

darkline wrote:

You can get lots of stats here: https://mzlive.eu

Lots of historical information but I couldn't find info regarding U23 leagues, they do have the most expensive U23 teams at the moment.

In any case, there is a dissadvantage of being from a small nation, even when you can get more foreign players you're still at dissadvantage as you would need some players for U21 & U23, ideally you would use the 21 y/olds, train them, use them again at U23 and if you home Country doesn't have a half decent market you'll be limited.

Thanks for this link, interesting one. Well, that does not sound hopeful :D as I recently I've been thinking of making an "effort" to be competitive on U21 level. Currently my core are all 19 year olds, about 3-4 local players are actually good, and I've spent some big money on expensive foreign players, which I am certain to make profit on.

I did some digging, but did not see a minor country winning any U21 or U23 titles or having even the most valuable teams. Closest was Lithuania having two representatives on place 53 and 56 in terms of most valuable U21 teams. The rest were all the big nations. So, quite a challenge :) I dare to say impossible

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 18-10-2022 20:51

[FLUSA]
President

Well you have to take into account that even a mid-sized Country like USA or England has about 50 active users in total, when the big Countries like Argentina have about 1000 active users so obviously you'll see more people from those Countries winning cups just because they're numbers are much larger than ours, it is harder but that doesn't mean you can't compete. If you can get 3/4 good local players and possibly a local keeper (shouldn't be too hard this days) and you have the money, you can search the market for foreigners and sign a top winger, a top striker, maybe some less expensive midfielders with as many balls as possible (plenty of them in the market and not that expensive if you settle for 8s & 7s) and well you'll need some defenders too... In any case, just having good players alone won't guarantee success, you also need to know your tactics and you will need a lot of luck, because luck also plays an important role in this game.Well you have to take into account that even a mid-sized Country like USA or England has about 50 active users in total, when the big Countries like Argentina have about 1000 active users so obviously you'll see more people from those Countries winning cups just because they're numbers are much larger than ours, it is harder but that doesn't mean you can't compete.

If you can get 3/4 good local players and possibly a local keeper (shouldn't be too hard this days) and you have the money, you can search the market for foreigners and sign a top winger, a top striker, maybe some less expensive midfielders with as many balls as possible (plenty of them in the market and not that expensive if you settle for 8s & 7s) and well you'll need some defenders too...

In any case, just having good players alone won't guarantee success, you also need to know your tactics and you will need a lot of luck, because luck also plays an important role in this game.

Re: Market is broken?

By chucky06 - 19-10-2022 02:56

[AUSNZ]
President

I wrote some information on this for a piece in the Bolivian Zone. It's in English too. I've had a goal to win the U23 Top League and had two cracks at it now and my team is all 22 now. Hoping to have another crack new season. I've finished 5th and the only teams in the top league are Chinese. It's a massive massive disadvantage to be from a minor country with limited player pools. It also makes you choose senior or Uxx comps as you can't have a highly competitive team in both unless you own most of your senior national team.

sweem wrote:

I also noticed this. On this note, is there a way to see if there has been any champion in U21/U23 from a "minor" country? It feels like a huge disadvantage being from a small nation. The own player market, to find bargains etc is impossible, so relying solely on the "lucky" youth swap system where you need not only 1 player with 4HP/2LP, but probably 3-4 of them to make up for the lack of local market.

I wrote some information on this for a piece in the Bolivian Zone. It's in English too. I've had a goal to win the U23 Top League and had two cracks at it now and my team is all 22 now. Hoping to have another crack new season. I've finished 5th and the only teams in the top league are Chinese. It's a massive massive disadvantage to be from a minor country with limited player pools. It also makes you choose senior or Uxx comps as you can't have a highly competitive team in both unless you own most of your senior national team.

Re: Market is broken?

By chucky06 - 19-10-2022 02:59

[AUSNZ]
President

Pretty much nailed my model how I try to he competitive in U23. I align my run at it with when I have at least 3/4 local great players so I'm not relying totally on foreign players. Luck also plays a huge part as at U23 level the same teams can play eachother with the exact same tactics and get completely different results. Let's not even talk about the collusion between the teams in the league too that may even be owned by the same person

darkline wrote:

Well you have to take into account that even a mid-sized Country like USA or England has about 50 active users in total, when the big Countries like Argentina have about 1000 active users so obviously you'll see more people from those Countries winning cups just because they're numbers are much larger than ours, it is harder but that doesn't mean you can't compete.

If you can get 3/4 good local players and possibly a local keeper (shouldn't be too hard this days) and you have the money, you can search the market for foreigners and sign a top winger, a top striker, maybe some less expensive midfielders with as many balls as possible (plenty of them in the market and not that expensive if you settle for 8s & 7s) and well you'll need some defenders too...

In any case, just having good players alone won't guarantee success, you also need to know your tactics and you will need a lot of luck, because luck also plays an important role in this game.

Pretty much nailed my model how I try to he competitive in U23. I align my run at it with when I have at least 3/4 local great players so I'm not relying totally on foreign players.

Luck also plays a huge part as at U23 level the same teams can play eachother with the exact same tactics and get completely different results. Let's not even talk about the collusion between the teams in the league too that may even be owned by the same person

Re: Market is broken?

By jere92 - 19-10-2022 09:26

Market isn’t broken it has just evolved. Why is Senior competition ruined? Everything according to you seems to be revolving around the money. Was the game being about who has the biggest wallet? Senior competition actually is now getting to a point where teams have fully developed monsters playing for their teams as where in the past you could manage with players like you shown us, now you don’t. Its in the past now and the competition demands you more. You don’t want to challenge yourself to the limit? I don’t get the comparison between old and new scouting systems. Before you got 3 or more skills pointed to you by scouting system that would go 6+. Now you get to know your players strengths right away. You needed way more luck with the old system to get current day superstars it doesn’t have anything to do with skill. You were wasting countless superstars just because they had low initial skills or the scouting system told you skills that would go +6 but in the end would only max at 6 hiding the players true potential. You needed more luck in the past because you would waste resources into HP2 players now you can at least skip them and be more efficient with your decisions. Saving your time and increasing the general level of players in Managerzone. That also increasing the level of competition in Managerzone. That also increasing the demand of the market about quality players. We can’t really tell which of the systems required you to have more or less luck. The luck just was noticed in the different part of players development. Earlier you knew you got good player in your hands at the age of 21-23. Now you know instantly you have something in your hands. Which one of these cases are better? Probably the one where you know instantly you have something worth to develop instead of wasting your resources. Then what about market being broken? I sold last season two keepers 31yo for 1M€ and 24yo for 880K€. Keepers can get you money in market but at the current day market and competition demands them to have sub skills also. 10 Keeping aren’t going to get you anywhere. I also bought 25yo keeper for 2,95M€. Managers buying players aren’t going to settle with average joes anymore they need to have something to bring to your team. Managers are investing their resources into quality. Everyone can develop their core average joes by their own more consistently and doesn’t need to use market for it.Market isn’t broken it has just evolved.

Why is Senior competition ruined? Everything according to you seems to be revolving around the money. Was the game being about who has the biggest wallet? Senior competition actually is now getting to a point where teams have fully developed monsters playing for their teams as where in the past you could manage with players like you shown us, now you don’t. Its in the past now and the competition demands you more. You don’t want to challenge yourself to the limit?

I don’t get the comparison between old and new scouting systems. Before you got 3 or more skills pointed to you by scouting system that would go 6+. Now you get to know your players strengths right away. You needed way more luck with the old system to get current day superstars it doesn’t have anything to do with skill. You were wasting countless superstars just because they had low initial skills or the scouting system told you skills that would go +6 but in the end would only max at 6 hiding the players true potential. You needed more luck in the past because you would waste resources into HP2 players now you can at least skip them and be more efficient with your decisions. Saving your time and increasing the general level of players in Managerzone. That also increasing the level of competition in Managerzone. That also increasing the demand of the market about quality players.

We can’t really tell which of the systems required you to have more or less luck. The luck just was noticed in the different part of players development. Earlier you knew you got good player in your hands at the age of 21-23. Now you know instantly you have something in your hands. Which one of these cases are better? Probably the one where you know instantly you have something worth to develop instead of wasting your resources.

Then what about market being broken?

I sold last season two keepers 31yo for 1M€ and 24yo for 880K€. Keepers can get you money in market but at the current day market and competition demands them to have sub skills also. 10 Keeping aren’t going to get you anywhere. I also bought 25yo keeper for 2,95M€. Managers buying players aren’t going to settle with average joes anymore they need to have something to bring to your team. Managers are investing their resources into quality. Everyone can develop their core average joes by their own more consistently and doesn’t need to use market for it.

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 19-10-2022 12:08

[FLUSA]
President

If evolving is making things simpler and dumber so you can put the least amount of effort then yes, the market evolved and the game evolved as I even managed to win an MLS title on auto-pilot without touching the tactic once during the season. I guess it depends on what you like, some people prefers a challenge and some people prefers not to have to think much or put effort. Everything does ultimately revolve about money, no need to explain that one and that player I shown sold for $1 because it instantly deteriorated from 8 speed / 9 stamina to a visual 7 speed / 8 stamina this season when he turned 30 y/old , for $1 that guy is a steal as he has the right set of skills for a heading striker. Well you're wrong because you didn't understand the old scout, also the old scout had to do less with luck and more with skill because the quality of youths a club receive has been lowered to about 20% or probably less of what it was in the past, so allow me to graphically explain this. With the old scout lets say out of 23 players you received about 5 HP4 and 11 HP3 and this numbers are correct from my own team when old youth system converted to the new one as I made a note of it. If you knew how to use the old scout and you put time and effort, you'd be able to find the top players and produce top quality players, for that reason I won many cups with a homegrown squad and a Champions Cup with 9 homegrown players. Because the new scout gives you all the information instead of making you work for it, the quality of youths you receive had to be necessarily lowered, so out of the current 23 players after using my swaps, all I got left is one HP4 LP 1 (HP on Set Plays / Shooting) and a few mediocre HP3 LP2 which is on par with what I usually get, I did hit the jackpot about 6 seasons ago and got a good HP4/LP2 that I nurtured and trained. So old system will give you a lot of top quality players, you just needed the skill and talent to be able to identify those players and know on which skills to train them, so the balance was about 20% luck and 80% talent. With the new scout you get 20% (or less) of the quality you used to get but it tells you exactly the quality of the player and how to train them, so getting a good players is 100% luck and 0% talent. Now moving on to how it ruined the market and also made it extremely boring, in the past you had to make decisions and take risks, you could buy a promising player and he would max out on a critical skill and you'd lose money or it could go the other way and you could end up with a top star, it was all about taking risks and it was exciting, I remember anxiously waiting for the training report to see if some of my top projects will max out or not. Now is all about the scout, there is no mystery & no risk involved, what you see is what you get, the market is as boring as going to tesco to buy some milk for my breakfast, is more a chore than something to look forward to. And then you said "Everything according to you seems to be revolving around the money. Was the game being about who has the biggest wallet" Well, thanks to the new scouting system is more about the money and who has the biggest wallet than ever, in the past I would invest $100K to $200K on a bunch of young players on the hope of getting a star or two, sometimes the gamble paid off and sometimes it didn't but it was fun and I didn't need lots of money, now? Well, if you want a future star you're not going to be able to buy him for $200K because you and everyone else know the guy will be a star... again, no risk, no mystery, no gambling on a player, it's just so boring. Anyway, got to go and to each it's own, I'm sure there's a lot of people that couldn't produce good youths before because they didn't bother to research the youth system, for people like me that wants a challenge, like to research things, want some risk taking... well, I just find it superboring and I've been playing since 2006 so it takes something special to get me bored, the youth scout was pretty much the last nail in the coffin for me, only thing that I'm waiting now is a new SIM which hopefully will give me something new to research and investigate but the youth training and market is ruined for me.

jere92 wrote:

Market isn’t broken it has just evolved.

If evolving is making things simpler and dumber so you can put the least amount of effort then yes, the market evolved and the game evolved as I even managed to win an MLS title on auto-pilot without touching the tactic once during the season.

I guess it depends on what you like, some people prefers a challenge and some people prefers not to have to think much or put effort.

jere92 wrote:

Why is Senior competition ruined? Everything according to you seems to be revolving around the money. Was the game being about who has the biggest wallet? Senior competition actually is now getting to a point where teams have fully developed monsters playing for their teams as where in the past you could manage with players like you shown us, now you don’t.

Everything does ultimately revolve about money, no need to explain that one and that player I shown sold for $1 because it instantly deteriorated from 8 speed / 9 stamina to a visual 7 speed / 8 stamina this season when he turned 30 y/old , for $1 that guy is a steal as he has the right set of skills for a heading striker.

jere92 wrote:

I don’t get the comparison between old and new scouting systems. Before you got 3 or more skills pointed to you by scouting system that would go 6+. Now you get to know your players strengths right away. You needed way more luck with the old system to get current day superstars it doesn’t have anything to do with skill.

Well you're wrong because you didn't understand the old scout, also the old scout had to do less with luck and more with skill because the quality of youths a club receive has been lowered to about 20% or probably less of what it was in the past, so allow me to graphically explain this.

With the old scout lets say out of 23 players you received about 5 HP4 and 11 HP3 and this numbers are correct from my own team when old youth system converted to the new one as I made a note of it. If you knew how to use the old scout and you put time and effort, you'd be able to find the top players and produce top quality players, for that reason I won many cups with a homegrown squad and a Champions Cup with 9 homegrown players.

Because the new scout gives you all the information instead of making you work for it, the quality of youths you receive had to be necessarily lowered, so out of the current 23 players after using my swaps, all I got left is one HP4 LP 1 (HP on Set Plays / Shooting) and a few mediocre HP3 LP2 which is on par with what I usually get, I did hit the jackpot about 6 seasons ago and got a good HP4/LP2 that I nurtured and trained.

So old system will give you a lot of top quality players, you just needed the skill and talent to be able to identify those players and know on which skills to train them, so the balance was about 20% luck and 80% talent. With the new scout you get 20% (or less) of the quality you used to get but it tells you exactly the quality of the player and how to train them, so getting a good players is 100% luck and 0% talent.

Now moving on to how it ruined the market and also made it extremely boring, in the past you had to make decisions and take risks, you could buy a promising player and he would max out on a critical skill and you'd lose money or it could go the other way and you could end up with a top star, it was all about taking risks and it was exciting, I remember anxiously waiting for the training report to see if some of my top projects will max out or not. Now is all about the scout, there is no mystery & no risk involved, what you see is what you get, the market is as boring as going to tesco to buy some milk for my breakfast, is more a chore than something to look forward to.

And then you said "Everything according to you seems to be revolving around the money. Was the game being about who has the biggest wallet"

Well, thanks to the new scouting system is more about the money and who has the biggest wallet than ever, in the past I would invest $100K to $200K on a bunch of young players on the hope of getting a star or two, sometimes the gamble paid off and sometimes it didn't but it was fun and I didn't need lots of money, now? Well, if you want a future star you're not going to be able to buy him for $200K because you and everyone else know the guy will be a star... again, no risk, no mystery, no gambling on a player, it's just so boring.

Anyway, got to go and to each it's own, I'm sure there's a lot of people that couldn't produce good youths before because they didn't bother to research the youth system, for people like me that wants a challenge, like to research things, want some risk taking... well, I just find it superboring and I've been playing since 2006 so it takes something special to get me bored, the youth scout was pretty much the last nail in the coffin for me, only thing that I'm waiting now is a new SIM which hopefully will give me something new to research and investigate but the youth training and market is ruined for me.

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 19-10-2022 12:11

[FLUSA]
President

When I'm saying I'm waiting for a new SIM I'm expecting a miracle I suppose... but that's the only thing that could make this game interesting again for me.When I'm saying I'm waiting for a new SIM I'm expecting a miracle I suppose... but that's the only thing that could make this game interesting again for me.

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 19-10-2022 12:18

[FLUSA]
President

It's a shame the stats for this U23 final I played a while ago are not available any more: https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1171143754 I remember it because of how ridiculous it was, had about 25 shots vs 1 from my opponent and lost 2-0, he only got one shot because the other was an own goal thanks to the infamous nad still unfixed "pass the ball back" bug you see sometimes when the 2nd half starts.

chucky06 wrote:

Luck also plays a huge part as at U23 level the same teams can play eachother with the exact same tactics and get completely different results.

It's a shame the stats for this U23 final I played a while ago are not available any more:

https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1171143754

I remember it because of how ridiculous it was, had about 25 shots vs 1 from my opponent and lost 2-0, he only got one shot because the other was an own goal thanks to the infamous nad still unfixed "pass the ball back" bug you see sometimes when the 2nd half starts.

Re: Market is broken?

By jere92 - 19-10-2022 13:16

"With the old scout lets say out of 23 players you received about 5 HP4 and 11 HP3 and this numbers are correct from my own team when old youth system converted to the new one as I made a note of it." I had no such luck when the new scout system was introduced. I think maybe 2 players were worth training up to 30yo from that set of youths we had back then. "(old) so the balance was about 20% luck and 80% talent. (new) so getting a good players is 100% luck and 0% talent." It has always been 100% luck 0% talent. We have been getting what we are given. Old system was giving us lottery tickets to scratch and make decisions on. Current one is a slot machine that tells us some of the results. The end result is the same anyway. I agree that scratching a lottery ticket has more mystery to it and it can carry some value when its half scratched but the end result is still the same you either get big gains or you lose. In the end you have no input where players are going to max their skills on. When buying a 4 star players at the current day can be huge risks and every skill between the high potential and low potential are the mystery now. They also usually decides are the player superstars or current day average joes. You can argue that the talent was how you scratched your lottery tickets back in the day to gain some profit in the process but it doesn't change the fact the end result was still predetermined when the player joined your youth school."With the old scout lets say out of 23 players you received about 5 HP4 and 11 HP3 and this numbers are correct from my own team when old youth system converted to the new one as I made a note of it."

I had no such luck when the new scout system was introduced. I think maybe 2 players were worth training up to 30yo from that set of youths we had back then.

"(old) so the balance was about 20% luck and 80% talent. (new) so getting a good players is 100% luck and 0% talent."

It has always been 100% luck 0% talent. We have been getting what we are given. Old system was giving us lottery tickets to scratch and make decisions on. Current one is a slot machine that tells us some of the results. The end result is the same anyway.

I agree that scratching a lottery ticket has more mystery to it and it can carry some value when its half scratched but the end result is still the same you either get big gains or you lose. In the end you have no input where players are going to max their skills on.

When buying a 4 star players at the current day can be huge risks and every skill between the high potential and low potential are the mystery now. They also usually decides are the player superstars or current day average joes.

You can argue that the talent was how you scratched your lottery tickets back in the day to gain some profit in the process but it doesn't change the fact the end result was still predetermined when the player joined your youth school.

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 19-10-2022 13:54

[FLUSA]
President

With the old scout you received better youths, that's not a guess, is a fact that has been already told by crew and there is a news item about it. Unfortunately when you have a scout that tells you everything, there is no other way around that than to generate less good youths. If you receive more and better youths and you just need to figure out how to identify them, how is that scratching a lottery ticket or a 100% luck. With the previous scout I had a method with which I could determine if a player was likely to max out on speed, on stamina and on control, so all I needed to do is train the player until he maxed out on the skill he was likely to max early, if he went far on that skill then you had a player with great potential and based solely on that maxing and what the scout told you, then using simple math you could have a good educated guess at the rest of the skills and position. So yes, working out my system took a lot of time and investigation and others reached similar conclusions as mine, which additionally created some interesting forum discussions about the subject, some people created excel charts with their own theories & formulas from which I also drawn some good information.. but yes, to figure out the previous scout you needed to get involved, discuss with others, exchange opinions and draw your own conclusions through trial and error.... all this sort of thing is what made the game interesting for me at least.With the old scout you received better youths, that's not a guess, is a fact that has been already told by crew and there is a news item about it. Unfortunately when you have a scout that tells you everything, there is no other way around that than to generate less good youths.

If you receive more and better youths and you just need to figure out how to identify them, how is that scratching a lottery ticket or a 100% luck.

With the previous scout I had a method with which I could determine if a player was likely to max out on speed, on stamina and on control, so all I needed to do is train the player until he maxed out on the skill he was likely to max early, if he went far on that skill then you had a player with great potential and based solely on that maxing and what the scout told you, then using simple math you could have a good educated guess at the rest of the skills and position.

So yes, working out my system took a lot of time and investigation and others reached similar conclusions as mine, which additionally created some interesting forum discussions about the subject, some people created excel charts with their own theories & formulas from which I also drawn some good information.. but yes, to figure out the previous scout you needed to get involved, discuss with others, exchange opinions and draw your own conclusions through trial and error.... all this sort of thing is what made the game interesting for me at least.

Re: Market is broken?

By jere92 - 19-10-2022 15:17

So you think game were more enjoyable when we had better odds to win? Or is it that now we face the bad luck more often straight from the scout report every week? Earlier you didn't face bad luck every week with bad maxings as it was scattered all over the season making it more bearable and you had less players to filter anyways cos you wasn't looking 3 new players every week. Yeah well you got more winning tickets earlier. If you identify players isn't that just like scratching the lottery ticket. No win next. Early max next. Oh a win lets scratch it a bit more and see if it has more to offer. What a great maxing on this player lets develop him. To identify player you any way should max all of his skills to see what he got to offer just like scratching a ticket to see if it has a win. There has and always will be luck involved when you are randomly generated a player. Getting 9 max on a skill that told you he had potential. Was it talent by you or pure luck it went that far? The thing is earlier with good luck players could generate more money if you maxed the next skill well. Or with bad luck you could make much less money if you decided to keep them and max early. Saying there were some kind of skill involved betting on unmaxed skill to develop certain level is not true. Like you said "well educated guess" that can also be right or wrong depending on your luck. Now we have crucial information about the players that are based on facts, not on "well educated guesses". Would the game be more interesting if we had more crucial information about the SIM for example and not only theories that we have made up through the years? Or would it also ruin you the mystery behind the game?So you think game were more enjoyable when we had better odds to win? Or is it that now we face the bad luck more often straight from the scout report every week? Earlier you didn't face bad luck every week with bad maxings as it was scattered all over the season making it more bearable and you had less players to filter anyways cos you wasn't looking 3 new players every week.

Yeah well you got more winning tickets earlier. If you identify players isn't that just like scratching the lottery ticket. No win next. Early max next. Oh a win lets scratch it a bit more and see if it has more to offer. What a great maxing on this player lets develop him.

To identify player you any way should max all of his skills to see what he got to offer just like scratching a ticket to see if it has a win. There has and always will be luck involved when you are randomly generated a player. Getting 9 max on a skill that told you he had potential. Was it talent by you or pure luck it went that far?

The thing is earlier with good luck players could generate more money if you maxed the next skill well. Or with bad luck you could make much less money if you decided to keep them and max early. Saying there were some kind of skill involved betting on unmaxed skill to develop certain level is not true. Like you said "well educated guess" that can also be right or wrong depending on your luck.

Now we have crucial information about the players that are based on facts, not on "well educated guesses". Would the game be more interesting if we had more crucial information about the SIM for example and not only theories that we have made up through the years? Or would it also ruin you the mystery behind the game?

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 19-10-2022 15:57

[FLUSA]
President

You don't seem to grasp the difference between skill and luck, I'm not going to lie but I'm getting bored trying to explain this to you. Skill is using the information you have available to improve the chances of obtaining the desired outcome, that's why I said the previous method was 80% skill and 20% luck, current system is 100% luck, you either get a player with a good scout or you don't, there is no piece of information that I can use that will improve my odds of getting a player with a good scout and I tried some odd things like swapping at odd times, different days of the week and nop, is a 100% luck, nothing I could do to improve my odds. I got a better idea! Why doesn't crew just put an option for the system to pick up the best players and setup automatically the best possible tactic based on the players you have available. Maybe another button could analyze your opponent and include that in the formula to calculate the best tactic to use.

jere92 wrote:

Saying there were some kind of skill involved betting on unmaxed skill to develop certain level is not true. Like you said "well educated guess" that can also be right or wrong depending on your luck.

You don't seem to grasp the difference between skill and luck, I'm not going to lie but I'm getting bored trying to explain this to you. Skill is using the information you have available to improve the chances of obtaining the desired outcome, that's why I said the previous method was 80% skill and 20% luck, current system is 100% luck, you either get a player with a good scout or you don't, there is no piece of information that I can use that will improve my odds of getting a player with a good scout and I tried some odd things like swapping at odd times, different days of the week and nop, is a 100% luck, nothing I could do to improve my odds.

jere92 wrote:

Would the game be more interesting if we had more crucial information about the SIM for example and not only theories that we have made up through the years? Or would it also ruin you the mystery behind the game?

I got a better idea! Why doesn't crew just put an option for the system to pick up the best players and setup automatically the best possible tactic based on the players you have available. Maybe another button could analyze your opponent and include that in the formula to calculate the best tactic to use.

Re: Market is broken?

By jere92 - 19-10-2022 23:53

If you had such information it sound more like you were cheating at the casino. For example counting cards improves you chances at blackjack and is sort of a bug abuse there. At the old system you either got a player with good skills or you didn't, there wasn't any piece of information that you should have been able to use that would improve your odds of getting a player with good skills and even if you tried things like swapping players during full moon while sacrificing a virgin to satan there was nothing you could do to improve your odds it was 100% luck. And if there was such information about getting improved chances it probably was a loop hole that you have been abusing for years. I'm sorry that the bug has been removed when they introduced new scouting system to make the game more enjoyable for us others. Im still thinking that the increased amounts of bad luck feeling with the youth exchange weekly is still the thing that makes you more upset right now. Not the fact that you had theories that worked or any kind of a loop holes you abused. The feeling of bad luck and how mystery works while developing our players have changed. There is still the same feelings that we used to have with this game. Its just in different parts of the players development. You still can enjoy the player development, take risks on market, turn out profit, make loses and so on. It just have changed, not broken.

darkline wrote:

Skill is using the information you have available to improve the chances of obtaining the desired outcome

If you had such information it sound more like you were cheating at the casino. For example counting cards improves you chances at blackjack and is sort of a bug abuse there.

darkline wrote:

you either get a player with a good scout or you don't, there is no piece of information that I can use that will improve my odds of getting a player with a good scout and I tried some odd things like swapping at odd times, different days of the week and nop, is a 100% luck, nothing I could do to improve my odds.

At the old system you either got a player with good skills or you didn't, there wasn't any piece of information that you should have been able to use that would improve your odds of getting a player with good skills and even if you tried things like swapping players during full moon while sacrificing a virgin to satan there was nothing you could do to improve your odds it was 100% luck.

And if there was such information about getting improved chances it probably was a loop hole that you have been abusing for years. I'm sorry that the bug has been removed when they introduced new scouting system to make the game more enjoyable for us others.

Im still thinking that the increased amounts of bad luck feeling with the youth exchange weekly is still the thing that makes you more upset right now. Not the fact that you had theories that worked or any kind of a loop holes you abused. The feeling of bad luck and how mystery works while developing our players have changed. There is still the same feelings that we used to have with this game. Its just in different parts of the players development. You still can enjoy the player development, take risks on market, turn out profit, make loses and so on. It just have changed, not broken.

Re: Market is broken?

By k33n3y - 20-10-2022 00:54

Reading this thread is actually hilarious. One of the most experienced managers in the game and someone is attempting to argue. #teamDL. The game is beyond cracked, broken etc A new sim is much needed. It's beyond needed. Wing play is so incredibly cracked. Makes it so much harder to just compete with SP. Because you have to adapt for every game. Wing teams don't. It's not even an argument. I've used the market to my advantage in truth by training players. However I can't dream to pay the many millions you need for a heading def for instance.Reading this thread is actually hilarious.

One of the most experienced managers in the game and someone is attempting to argue.

#teamDL.

The game is beyond cracked, broken etc

A new sim is much needed. It's beyond needed.

Wing play is so incredibly cracked. Makes it so much harder to just compete with SP. Because you have to adapt for every game. Wing teams don't. It's not even an argument.

I've used the market to my advantage in truth by training players. However I can't dream to pay the many millions you need for a heading def for instance.

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 20-10-2022 01:20

[FLUSA]
President

@jere You still don't get it? You got better quality youths with the previous youth system! Let me post the news to see if you finally see the light 💡 https://www.managerzone.com/?p=news&nid=95906&share_sport=soccer One particular issue that was raised by many, is whether or not the new Scout Report will lead to an inflation of highly skilled players in the game. We think that this is a concern worth taking seriously and as a result, we have rebalanced the underlying potential of new youth players (who enter the game after this release), [b]making 4-star players less common than they otherwise would have been[/b]. Note that this rebalancing does not affect any players that enter the game as seniors, nor does it affect players who were created prior to this release. ------------------------------------------------ So here it goes again, you got better youth players before the new scout, as I said before that's a [b]fact[/b], if you had the knowledge and the skills necessary to identify & train correctly the players then you should be able to get a lot more top quality talent than now. That's called skill, not luck... of course, some luck needed but not a 100% like you need this days. Obviously, if you didn't understand the previous scout and you were blindly training players without knowing how to interpret the data and you couldn't be assed to investigate and research a bit, I certainly understand why you need a tinder scout system and why you would benefit from it. It's the problem of the game in general, it's been dumbed down so there's no advantage for the managers that put the work into researching the game, there's even a script that lazy people uses to copy top managers tactics so you don't even have to find your own tactic through trial and error as people used to do in the past. Btw, the information about training youths with the previous scout has been discussed here on this forum, even stats to verify theories, I posted my method multiple times to help others and there were other valuable contributions on that thread so it wasn't a secret.@jere

You still don't get it? You got better quality youths with the previous youth system! Let me post the news to see if you finally see the light 💡

https://www.managerzone.com/?p=news&nid=95906&share_sport=soccer

One particular issue that was raised by many, is whether or not the new Scout Report will lead to an inflation of highly skilled players in the game.

We think that this is a concern worth taking seriously and as a result, we have rebalanced the underlying potential of new youth players (who enter the game after this release), making 4-star players less common than they otherwise would have been. Note that this rebalancing does not affect any players that enter the game as seniors, nor does it affect players who were created prior to this release.

------------------------------------------------
So here it goes again, you got better youth players before the new scout, as I said before that's a fact, if you had the knowledge and the skills necessary to identify & train correctly the players then you should be able to get a lot more top quality talent than now. That's called skill, not luck... of course, some luck needed but not a 100% like you need this days.

Obviously, if you didn't understand the previous scout and you were blindly training players without knowing how to interpret the data and you couldn't be assed to investigate and research a bit, I certainly understand why you need a tinder scout system and why you would benefit from it. It's the problem of the game in general, it's been dumbed down so there's no advantage for the managers that put the work into researching the game, there's even a script that lazy people uses to copy top managers tactics so you don't even have to find your own tactic through trial and error as people used to do in the past.

Btw, the information about training youths with the previous scout has been discussed here on this forum, even stats to verify theories, I posted my method multiple times to help others and there were other valuable contributions on that thread so it wasn't a secret.

Re: Market is broken?

By haofeng1qaz - 20-10-2022 03:47

[AC米兰联盟]

i agree thay the prize and income of senior games should be higher than that of youth games.i agree thay the prize and income of senior games should be higher than that of youth games.

Re: Market is broken?

By jere92 - 20-10-2022 07:08

I noted that and asked you this but you didn't answer it. I understood that we had better odds to get better players earlier but still it didn't have anything to do with skill that you were given random players. You could open skills up to 7 and see if it maxes and move on to next skills or scrap the player but still it would be determined by your luck if the player was good or not. Your skill didn't have anything to do with the fact that stamina didn't max on 7 or if it did. You were making well educated guesses based on the players maxings but at the first place you had no clue about the players true potential and were given the players by luck. You could have youth school full of HP2 players sitting until they started to show bad maxing only to change them to another HP2 player. So if we reworked current scout report system today to be slow like the earlier system was. First season you get to know their training speed, second you get to now the stars of LP and in the third you get to know the HP of the player. Would you be more satisfied to change your HP2 players when they are 18 and get to know that you have just wasted 2 seasons on training them? In replacement you get players that have HP2 as their potential but you get to know it in 6 months of time and change them again. We can argue here endlessly which one had more luck involved maybe it was the earlier cos of better drop rates but the fact that if you had bad luck in the earlier system you would waste so much time and resources into nothing. Here at least bad luck can be managed to some extent that we don't start to train those players even in the first place. Good way balance them out would be cutting the income from youth cup games. 50%-75% for starters. Ticket sales in Youth leagues are 75% lesser than Senior league.

darkline wrote:

You still don't get it? You got better quality youths with the previous youth system! Let me post the news to see if you finally see the light 💡

jere92 wrote:

So you think game were more enjoyable when we had better odds to win?

I noted that and asked you this but you didn't answer it. I understood that we had better odds to get better players earlier but still it didn't have anything to do with skill that you were given random players. You could open skills up to 7 and see if it maxes and move on to next skills or scrap the player but still it would be determined by your luck if the player was good or not. Your skill didn't have anything to do with the fact that stamina didn't max on 7 or if it did. You were making well educated guesses based on the players maxings but at the first place you had no clue about the players true potential and were given the players by luck. You could have youth school full of HP2 players sitting until they started to show bad maxing only to change them to another HP2 player.

So if we reworked current scout report system today to be slow like the earlier system was. First season you get to know their training speed, second you get to now the stars of LP and in the third you get to know the HP of the player. Would you be more satisfied to change your HP2 players when they are 18 and get to know that you have just wasted 2 seasons on training them? In replacement you get players that have HP2 as their potential but you get to know it in 6 months of time and change them again.

We can argue here endlessly which one had more luck involved maybe it was the earlier cos of better drop rates but the fact that if you had bad luck in the earlier system you would waste so much time and resources into nothing. Here at least bad luck can be managed to some extent that we don't start to train those players even in the first place.

haofeng1qaz wrote:

i agree thay the prize and income of senior games should be higher than that of youth games.

Good way balance them out would be cutting the income from youth cup games. 50%-75% for starters. Ticket sales in Youth leagues are 75% lesser than Senior league.

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 20-10-2022 11:16

[FLUSA]
President

You can't because the quality of players you received was so much better that you would have to be the king of bad luck. Also and I forgot to mention this, I would train most U18 players and obviously not everyone was going to be good but even training bad players wasn't a waste of time as you could use them on U18 cups and I actually got interested in this competitions because of this I won several cups and my region Top league many times. With the new scout, I had to abandon playing U18 tournaments as all the players I usually get according to the scout are not worth training, which means I never had enough players to put together a U18 squad.... so it also killed U18 competitions for me.

jere92 wrote:

. You could have youth school full of HP2 players sitting until they started to show bad maxing only to change them to another HP2 player.

You can't because the quality of players you received was so much better that you would have to be the king of bad luck.

Also and I forgot to mention this, I would train most U18 players and obviously not everyone was going to be good but even training bad players wasn't a waste of time as you could use them on U18 cups and I actually got interested in this competitions because of this I won several cups and my region Top league many times. With the new scout, I had to abandon playing U18 tournaments as all the players I usually get according to the scout are not worth training, which means I never had enough players to put together a U18 squad.... so it also killed U18 competitions for me.

Re: Market is broken?

By jere92 - 20-10-2022 12:18

Looking at the current rates of stars they probably only toned 4-stars players to appear in the 3-star rating. Nothing else. And thats what they also stated that 4 star rating needed fixing. So you had the same chances probably to hit those HP2 players that you had before and after the rework of the system. 2 Stars : 45% 3 Stars : 51% 4 Stars : 4% I think 3 star players were earlier less common than 2 star players cos its hard to understand why it would be higher than 2 stars so maybe the rates were something like this before it needed a fix. 2 Stars : 45% 3 Stars : 40% 4 Stars : 15% During the season you bump into so many 3-2 star players that in the end of the season you can pick the prefered skills for them also. 4 star players you go what you get. You see about 50 new youths per season if you use all of your changes during the season making the average to see these star ratings during the season 4-2 = 1 4-1 = 1 3-2 = 11-12 3-1 = 11-12 So if you don't have 14 spots for one generations of new youths to train I dont know what you expect to be getting out of the system. Ofc thinking that your generation sizes is 7-8 youth players to upkeep your U18 team you can be even picky with the current star ratings.. 3-2 star rating is what you should aim for and 4-1, 4-2 are just a bonus. Rest of the 24 players are 2 star players on average and you don't bother to give them chances. My current youths and their star ratings 18yo Stars ( Under average ) 3-1 : 1 3-2 : 6 4-1 4-2 : 1 17yo Stars ( Above Average ) 3-1 3-2 : 4 4-1 : 3 4-2 : 1 16yo Stars ( Undecided ) 3-1 : 3 3-2 : 4 4-1 4-2 Ofc my current 16yo players are just shaping out as this current season just started and there are plenty of exchanges to find and even the odds out. But again there were five 2 star players to start with and I would have started training new generation of 5 HP2 and 2 HP3 players blindly without the new system.

darkline wrote:

You can't because the quality of players you received was so much better that you would have to be the king of bad luck.

Looking at the current rates of stars they probably only toned 4-stars players to appear in the 3-star rating. Nothing else. And thats what they also stated that 4 star rating needed fixing. So you had the same chances probably to hit those HP2 players that you had before and after the rework of the system.

2 Stars : 45%
3 Stars : 51%
4 Stars : 4%

I think 3 star players were earlier less common than 2 star players cos its hard to understand why it would be higher than 2 stars so maybe the rates were something like this before it needed a fix.

2 Stars : 45%
3 Stars : 40%
4 Stars : 15%

During the season you bump into so many 3-2 star players that in the end of the season you can pick the prefered skills for them also. 4 star players you go what you get.

You see about 50 new youths per season if you use all of your changes during the season making the average to see these star ratings during the season

4-2 = 1
4-1 = 1
3-2 = 11-12
3-1 = 11-12

So if you don't have 14 spots for one generations of new youths to train I dont know what you expect to be getting out of the system. Ofc thinking that your generation sizes is 7-8 youth players to upkeep your U18 team you can be even picky with the current star ratings.. 3-2 star rating is what you should aim for and 4-1, 4-2 are just a bonus.

Rest of the 24 players are 2 star players on average and you don't bother to give them chances.

My current youths and their star ratings

18yo Stars ( Under average )
3-1 : 1
3-2 : 6
4-1
4-2 : 1

17yo Stars ( Above Average )
3-1
3-2 : 4
4-1 : 3
4-2 : 1

16yo Stars ( Undecided )
3-1 : 3
3-2 : 4
4-1
4-2

Ofc my current 16yo players are just shaping out as this current season just started and there are plenty of exchanges to find and even the odds out. But again there were five 2 star players to start with and I would have started training new generation of 5 HP2 and 2 HP3 players blindly without the new system.

Ang: Market is broken?

By mbu - 20-10-2022 13:00

[You]

A greek team won the recent U21 Champions Cup, so it is definitely possible. I am competing in U21 myself from a small country and despite the lack of a local market, having the opportunity of 9 foreign players means that I have to get 3-4 good ones myself, which is doable over the course of three seasons of youth swapping.

sweem wrote:

On this note, is there a way to see if there has been any champion in U21/U23 from a "minor" country? It feels like a huge disadvantage being from a small nation. The own player market, to find bargains etc is impossible, so relying solely on the "lucky" youth swap system where you need not only 1 player with 4HP/2LP, but probably 3-4 of them to make up for the lack of local market.

A greek team won the recent U21 Champions Cup, so it is definitely possible. I am competing in U21 myself from a small country and despite the lack of a local market, having the opportunity of 9 foreign players means that I have to get 3-4 good ones myself, which is doable over the course of three seasons of youth swapping.

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 20-10-2022 13:57

[FLUSA]
President

That's possitively and absolutely incorrect, no doubt about it, what crew said is what crew did and I know that for a fact and was also confirmed to me by a crew member. Also, personal experience said I could graduate a couple few stars each season in the past and since the scout has been implemente, only 1 good player came out of my full academy. First off, I went slightly over 100 players in a week and I already mentioned how I did this, second I don't like to waste my time training player I know they'll be poor just for the u18 team and third, I was getting a lot of talent with the previous system that didn't depend exclusively on luck. Also, it's not only about the starts but also about the combinantion of skills that makes them not worth it. LP on Speed, Stamina or Pi means the player is worthless. Some bad combos, LP on shooting/tackling, HP shooting & LP control, HP shooting & LP heading, HP tackling & LP air passing, HP Airpassing & LP Control and so on..... Then of course LP 1s are worthless too, even a 4-1 is rare that you can turn him into a good player. Of my current 23 players, I have only a few mediocres and no one really promising, I'll give the detailed info later when I have time

jere92 wrote:

Looking at the current rates of stars they probably only toned 4-stars players to appear in the 3-star rating.

That's possitively and absolutely incorrect, no doubt about it, what crew said is what crew did and I know that for a fact and was also confirmed to me by a crew member. Also, personal experience said I could graduate a couple few stars each season in the past and since the scout has been implemente, only 1 good player came out of my full academy.

jere92 wrote:

So if you don't have 14 spots for one generations of new youths to train I dont know what you expect to be getting out of the system. Ofc thinking that your generation sizes is 7-8 youth players to upkeep your U18 team you can be even picky with the current star ratings.. 3-2 star rating is what you should aim for and 4-1, 4-2 are just a bonus.

First off, I went slightly over 100 players in a week and I already mentioned how I did this, second I don't like to waste my time training player I know they'll be poor just for the u18 team and third, I was getting a lot of talent with the previous system that didn't depend exclusively on luck.

Also, it's not only about the starts but also about the combinantion of skills that makes them not worth it.

LP on Speed, Stamina or Pi means the player is worthless.
Some bad combos, LP on shooting/tackling, HP shooting & LP control, HP shooting & LP heading, HP tackling & LP air passing, HP Airpassing & LP Control and so on.....

Then of course LP 1s are worthless too, even a 4-1 is rare that you can turn him into a good player.

Of my current 23 players, I have only a few mediocres and no one really promising, I'll give the detailed info later when I have time

Re: Market is broken?

By jere92 - 20-10-2022 15:04

So how did they change them then if what I said was incorrect? So you don't want to train players that have 3-2 and take the risk they might turn something good? Why you are you defending then blindly training players without the scout report? If something that was huge amount of time lost and based on luck. Earlier we might have had those better odds to get 4 star players but we didn't have control over what potential we were training at all times so we lost time and resources doing so. I have currently 4 players playing for my team that has 3-2 star setup so they definetly can turn out big profit. One of my players have Stamina LP and other one has Play Int LP. So they aren't worthless.

darkline wrote:

That's possitively and absolutely incorrect, no doubt about it, what crew said is what crew did and I know that for a fact and was also confirmed to me by a crew member.

So how did they change them then if what I said was incorrect?

darkline wrote:

First off, I went slightly over 100 players in a week and I already mentioned how I did this, second I don't like to waste my time training player I know they'll be poor just for the u18 team and third, I was getting a lot of talent with the previous system that didn't depend exclusively on luck.

So you don't want to train players that have 3-2 and take the risk they might turn something good? Why you are you defending then blindly training players without the scout report? If something that was huge amount of time lost and based on luck. Earlier we might have had those better odds to get 4 star players but we didn't have control over what potential we were training at all times so we lost time and resources doing so.

I have currently 4 players playing for my team that has 3-2 star setup so they definetly can turn out big profit.

darkline wrote:

Also, it's not only about the starts but also about the combinantion of skills that makes them not worth it.

LP on Speed, Stamina or Pi means the player is worthless.
Some bad combos, LP on shooting/tackling, HP shooting & LP control, HP shooting & LP heading, HP tackling & LP air passing, HP Airpassing & LP Control and so on.....

One of my players have Stamina LP and other one has Play Int LP. So they aren't worthless.

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 20-10-2022 15:26

[FLUSA]
President

They reduced the probability that a newly generated youth will reach 9s and 10s. I'm not guessing, I'm telling you and it was a needed change if they implemented the new scout because as I also told you, you would get too many good youths with the previous system and with the new scout that just tells you everything, the market would have been flooded with top talent. One thing they forgot is to reduce even more the probability than a keeper with reach 10 on keeping, so now is so extremely easy to produce a 10 ball keeper than they're worth nothing. I didn't say that, 3-2 player with a good scout are fine but I don't get any. How much Stamina does your LP player has? How much Pi the other one? Did you sell them and for how much if you did?

jere92 wrote:

So how did they change them then if what I said was incorrect?

They reduced the probability that a newly generated youth will reach 9s and 10s. I'm not guessing, I'm telling you and it was a needed change if they implemented the new scout because as I also told you, you would get too many good youths with the previous system and with the new scout that just tells you everything, the market would have been flooded with top talent.

One thing they forgot is to reduce even more the probability than a keeper with reach 10 on keeping, so now is so extremely easy to produce a 10 ball keeper than they're worth nothing.

jere92 wrote:

So you don't want to train players that have 3-2 and take the risk they might turn something good?

I didn't say that, 3-2 player with a good scout are fine but I don't get any.

jere92 wrote:

One of my players have Stamina LP and other one has Play Int LP. So they aren't worthless

How much Stamina does your LP player has? How much Pi the other one? Did you sell them and for how much if you did?

Re: Market is broken?

By jere92 - 20-10-2022 16:28

[fpl=213629385] [fpl=208828953] They both still play for my team. I paid 500k for Tomas and 6M for Julian.

Tomáš Lamačka

Age: 32

Julian Niedzwiecki

Age: 37

They both still play for my team. I paid 500k for Tomas and 6M for Julian.

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 20-10-2022 17:13

[FLUSA]
President

Ok but Tomas is a waste of time to invest money on training him, the camps he needs + salary costs more than what you paid on the market. So yes, if training a player is a financial loss for me, that's a worthless player in my book. And Julian is fine, it costs you that because he had 10 speed / 9 stamina with 10/10 control/shooting. I always waste a bit of time and train the LP too see if I can reach 7 but most of them max at 6/5 on the skill they have the LP. This are 4HP or 3HP players? Julian looks like a 4HP/2LP so in a case like that you could always try to train the LP and see what you got, but this is not the norm but the exception.Ok but Tomas is a waste of time to invest money on training him, the camps he needs + salary costs more than what you paid on the market. So yes, if training a player is a financial loss for me, that's a worthless player in my book.

And Julian is fine, it costs you that because he had 10 speed / 9 stamina with 10/10 control/shooting. I always waste a bit of time and train the LP too see if I can reach 7 but most of them max at 6/5 on the skill they have the LP.

This are 4HP or 3HP players? Julian looks like a 4HP/2LP so in a case like that you could always try to train the LP and see what you got, but this is not the norm but the exception.

Re: Market is broken?

By jere92 - 20-10-2022 18:37

They are both HP4/LP2 players. Tomas has HP Set plays unmaxed still. Shooting will go over 7+ aswell Heading and Stamina his LPThey are both HP4/LP2 players. Tomas has HP Set plays unmaxed still. Shooting will go over 7+ aswell Heading and Stamina his LP

Re: Market is broken?

By darkline - 20-10-2022 18:56

[FLUSA]
President

The problem with Tomas is that the 7 stamina maxing is deadly, it really is, the only way that he could be worth training is if you train him for free as a youth with the 3 standard TCs and then if he trains fast and got plenty of usable balls, you could give him an extra paid TC and sell him to managers that could use him for his U21 squad, in this case you have a good chance of turning a profit. The 7 stamina also ensures that he can only be a sub or will need to be replaced during the game and also that his value will drop like a rock when he nears retiring age. So would I buy a guy like him for $500K? I think so, maybe stick him in midfield instead of defense and try to see if he can play a full game or as a defender that will need replacing on the 2nd half. But like I said, it makes sense to buy the player when he's fully trained but it doesn't make sense to train him from scratch as you'll lose money, you paid less money than what the original owner invested in training camps and salary over the seasons he had it.The problem with Tomas is that the 7 stamina maxing is deadly, it really is, the only way that he could be worth training is if you train him for free as a youth with the 3 standard TCs and then if he trains fast and got plenty of usable balls, you could give him an extra paid TC and sell him to managers that could use him for his U21 squad, in this case you have a good chance of turning a profit.

The 7 stamina also ensures that he can only be a sub or will need to be replaced during the game and also that his value will drop like a rock when he nears retiring age.

So would I buy a guy like him for $500K? I think so, maybe stick him in midfield instead of defense and try to see if he can play a full game or as a defender that will need replacing on the 2nd half.

But like I said, it makes sense to buy the player when he's fully trained but it doesn't make sense to train him from scratch as you'll lose money, you paid less money than what the original owner invested in training camps and salary over the seasons he had it.

Re: Market is broken?

By jere92 - 20-10-2022 21:01

I would estimate his current value at 2-4M€. He was playing full minutes to get me into World League div1. Sure he is the lowest stamina player in my team currently but even after detoration i can keep him as super sub to do stuff in second half. 500k out of 5 skills that went over 9 balls is a steal..I would estimate his current value at 2-4M€. He was playing full minutes to get me into World League div1. Sure he is the lowest stamina player in my team currently but even after detoration i can keep him as super sub to do stuff in second half. 500k out of 5 skills that went over 9 balls is a steal..

 

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