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Heading for Defenders

By brikkun - 30-12-2021 22:32

[GPX]

Is it useful to counteract strikers with good Heading? Or that would be countered also by Tackling?Is it useful to counteract strikers with good Heading? Or that would be countered also by Tackling?

 

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Re: Heading for Defenders

By douglaskampl - 31-12-2021 17:51

[BRAU18]
President

Useless. Rarely do defenders head the ball. And this only happens when an opposition player misses a long pass or a cross played to a striker. Then, your defender will sometimes head the ball as if it were a pass to another player in your team, but the heading skill doesn't seem to make a difference in this specific situation. To put it another way, when a long pass or a cross is played to a striker, if the long pass or cross coming from the opposition team is accurate and reaches the striker, the only way to win the ball back is by tackling your opponent. See, your only hope is the opposition player missing the pass or winning the ball back through a tackle (alternatively, you can use a very defensive tactic with 5 defenders to overwhelm the winger and stop most of the crosses and long passes). So, the heading skill is presumably useless for defenders, as far as is known.Useless. Rarely do defenders head the ball. And this only happens when an opposition player misses a long pass or a cross played to a striker. Then, your defender will sometimes head the ball as if it were a pass to another player in your team, but the heading skill doesn't seem to make a difference in this specific situation.

To put it another way, when a long pass or a cross is played to a striker, if the long pass or cross coming from the opposition team is accurate and reaches the striker, the only way to win the ball back is by tackling your opponent. See, your only hope is the opposition player missing the pass or winning the ball back through a tackle (alternatively, you can use a very defensive tactic with 5 defenders to overwhelm the winger and stop most of the crosses and long passes).

So, the heading skill is presumably useless for defenders, as far as is known.

Re: Heading for Defenders

By douglaskampl - 31-12-2021 17:57

[BRAU18]
President

Note that sometimes the cross will be perfect and there is no way to stop the striker from heading the ball. In this case, you would need to not let the cross happen in the first place. No tackling skills would help you, let alone heading skills! The answer above covers the situations in which a striker receives a long pass without heading the ball. Well, that's a lot of text for a very simple answer. Sorry. The fact is that heading makes no difference for defenders.Note that sometimes the cross will be perfect and there is no way to stop the striker from heading the ball. In this case, you would need to not let the cross happen in the first place. No tackling skills would help you, let alone heading skills! The answer above covers the situations in which a striker receives a long pass without heading the ball.

Well, that's a lot of text for a very simple answer. Sorry. The fact is that heading makes no difference for defenders.

Re: Heading for Defenders

By jere92 - 31-12-2021 20:52

My wingbacks actually interupts crosses to wingers with headers back to midfield. Is it thanks to ball control or heading. Atleast getting it to my midfield is thanks to heading right? I would actually highly disagree with claim that heading is useless with defenders. Wingers probably aren't trained with heading and what manual says about it Heading: A player with good Heading skills is comfortable when dealing with aerial balls. Thats why I break those passes early with headers as my oppoments dont have heading with their wingers and i have with my wingbacks? Why target mans probably score that much from crosses is The lack of heading with central defenders and what makes me think that wingplay has been so op before is that people havent valued heading as much se they should have.My wingbacks actually interupts crosses to wingers with headers back to midfield. Is it thanks to ball control or heading. Atleast getting it to my midfield is thanks to heading right? I would actually highly disagree with claim that heading is useless with defenders. Wingers probably aren't trained with heading and what manual says about it

Heading: A player with good Heading skills is comfortable when dealing with aerial balls.

Thats why I break those passes early with headers as my oppoments dont have heading with their wingers and i have with my wingbacks? Why target mans probably score that much from crosses is The lack of heading with central defenders and what makes me think that wingplay has been so op before is that people havent valued heading as much se they should have.

Re: Heading for Defenders

By douglaskampl - 31-12-2021 23:56

[BRAU18]
President

Jere, I see where you are coming from. I notice that my wingbacks do intercept some passes with headers too. You have a point. But the thing is that their heading skill is not trained at all in my case (I'm talking about my U18 and U21 defenders here). Yet, they never miss any headers. Those passes are always "perfect". They always land at my players (and what happens next is random). Therefore, I just assume the heading skill is useless in those situations, because the players seem to not miss any headers directed to another player no matter how good or how bad they are at heading. I've also never seen a defender heading the ball to stop a striker from heading the ball. So, what is heading for? You could be right about heading not being totally useless, but I've never seen it playing a important role. I mean, what do I know about this game? Lots of misteries out there. This is just theory.Jere, I see where you are coming from. I notice that my wingbacks do intercept some passes with headers too. You have a point.

But the thing is that their heading skill is not trained at all in my case (I'm talking about my U18 and U21 defenders here). Yet, they never miss any headers. Those passes are always "perfect". They always land at my players (and what happens next is random). Therefore, I just assume the heading skill is useless in those situations, because the players seem to not miss any headers directed to another player no matter how good or how bad they are at heading.

I've also never seen a defender heading the ball to stop a striker from heading the ball. So, what is heading for? You could be right about heading not being totally useless, but I've never seen it playing a important role.

I mean, what do I know about this game? Lots of misteries out there. This is just theory.

Re: Heading for Defenders

By charlesbee (NC) - 21-09-2022 16:15

[France]

If it is not already the case, the sim should change that. Against a striker a high PI+He+Ta should often be at duel distance with a high % of success at least 50/50 and the shot precision should be lowered. I agree else that heading only makes sense if duels occur. This needs PI and maybe tackling. If wingers, strikers and central defenders and keepers are all top there should be something like that after a cross: 25% (or more?) DC interceptions (heading in part, feet or body else), 25% off target, 25% stopped by keeper, 25% goal. Hence on 4 attempts you would get one goal on average with the 4 guys at top level. I suppose you have 9 or 10 everywhere matters there. (A nice cross from the winger) Do we see that in the sim ? I wonder. I would like to see less attempts because of the (good) CD interceptions. And CD with no heading at all should be punished in the stats of the season. They should play more on the sides. We see above that a good CD in heading should reduce the cross to goal ratio partially, suppose the DC interceptions are 15% heading and 10% else would the be with the head (because skills are high the CD) Then the cross to goal ratio is diminished by 15%. So it is not all but on a whole season or Cup it makes a big difference. These maybe 10% or 15% difference is not huge, maybe that is why managers who only tried CD heading 5 or 6 do not see any difference. It is rare to have high skills everywhere so this confuses the stats even more. Because if you exchange 1 ball in heading with 1 in PI you might see no difference at all globally. Still the keeper games with 0/20 of strikers we often see in the sim are just ridiculous and repulsive to newcomers I suppose. Instead of 1/6 - 0/25 games it would be more pleasant and realistic to see 3/5 - 2/15. The 3/5 is then simply a lucky day, and 2/15 a bit under the 3/15 or 4/15 that one could expect. BTW if this was reinforced certainly the 523 domination would diminish and also the starvation of tactical creativity. I like wing game but I also like soccer diversity.

douglaskampl wrote:

Jere, I see where you are coming from. I notice that my wingbacks do intercept some passes with headers too. You have a point.

But the thing is that their heading skill is not trained at all in my case (I'm talking about my U18 and U21 defenders here). Yet, they never miss any headers. Those passes are always "perfect". They always land at my players (and what happens next is random). Therefore, I just assume the heading skill is useless in those situations, because the players seem to not miss any headers directed to another player no matter how good or how bad they are at heading.

I've also never seen a defender heading the ball to stop a striker from heading the ball. So, what is heading for? You could be right about heading not being totally useless, but I've never seen it playing a important role.

I mean, what do I know about this game? Lots of misteries out there. This is just theory.

If it is not already the case, the sim should change that. Against a striker a high PI+He+Ta should often be at duel distance with a high % of success at least 50/50 and the shot precision should be lowered.

I agree else that heading only makes sense if duels occur. This needs PI and maybe tackling.

If wingers, strikers and central defenders and keepers are all top there should be something like that after a cross:
25% (or more?) DC interceptions (heading in part, feet or body else), 25% off target, 25% stopped by keeper, 25% goal.

Hence on 4 attempts you would get one goal on average with the 4 guys at top level. I suppose you have 9 or 10 everywhere matters there. (A nice cross from the winger)

Do we see that in the sim ? I wonder.

I would like to see less attempts because of the (good) CD interceptions. And CD with no heading at all should be punished in the stats of the season. They should play more on the sides.

We see above that a good CD in heading should reduce the cross to goal ratio partially, suppose the DC interceptions are 15% heading and 10% else would the be with the head (because skills are high the CD)

Then the cross to goal ratio is diminished by 15%.

So it is not all but on a whole season or Cup it makes a big difference.

These maybe 10% or 15% difference is not huge, maybe that is why managers who only tried CD heading 5 or 6 do not see any difference.

It is rare to have high skills everywhere so this confuses the stats even more. Because if you exchange 1 ball in heading with 1 in PI you might see no difference at all globally.

Still the keeper games with 0/20 of strikers we often see in the sim are just ridiculous and repulsive to newcomers I suppose.

Instead of 1/6 - 0/25 games it would be more pleasant and realistic to see 3/5 - 2/15.

The 3/5 is then simply a lucky day, and 2/15 a bit under the 3/15 or 4/15 that one could expect.

BTW if this was reinforced certainly the 523 domination would diminish and also the starvation of tactical creativity.

I like wing game but I also like soccer diversity.

Re: Heading for Defenders

By charlesbee (NC) - 21-09-2022 16:32

[France]

@douglas Think of this part: 25% off target It might be influenced with other skills of the defender disturbing the striker: athletic skills, xp, tackling (as you say it possibly covers more defending skills than just the standard tackles) Once again +1 here -1 there and all in all you see no big difference but in the details there is one. So this also shows that it's not so obvious to prove that just one skill has a small effect or not. You might see no stat difference but this does mean that high heading skill has no effect in itself. Possibly the skill was not tried cautiously enough or else the sim or replay is not perfectly balanced on that topic. I remember those days where some believed that heading had no effect with strikers. I had been trying that as early as I played MZ around 2005. Try to explain that today.@douglas

Think of this part:
25% off target

It might be influenced with other skills of the defender disturbing the striker: athletic skills, xp, tackling (as you say it possibly covers more defending skills than just the standard tackles)

Once again +1 here -1 there and all in all you see no big difference but in the details there is one.

So this also shows that it's not so obvious to prove that just one skill has a small effect or not.

You might see no stat difference but this does mean that high heading skill has no effect in itself.

Possibly the skill was not tried cautiously enough or else the sim or replay is not perfectly balanced on that topic.

I remember those days where some believed that heading had no effect with strikers. I had been trying that as early as I played MZ around 2005.

Try to explain that today.

Re: Heading for Defenders

By subirasport (NCA) - 22-09-2022 07:00

totally agree.

jere92 wrote:

My wingbacks actually interupts crosses to wingers with headers back to midfield. Is it thanks to ball control or heading. Atleast getting it to my midfield is thanks to heading right? I would actually highly disagree with claim that heading is useless with defenders. Wingers probably aren't trained with heading and what manual says about it

Heading: A player with good Heading skills is comfortable when dealing with aerial balls.

Thats why I break those passes early with headers as my oppoments dont have heading with their wingers and i have with my wingbacks? Why target mans probably score that much from crosses is The lack of heading with central defenders and what makes me think that wingplay has been so op before is that people havent valued heading as much se they should have.

totally agree.

Re: Heading for Defenders

By douglaskampl - 23-09-2022 09:36

[BRAU18]
President

It's been 9 months and I've actually changed my mind over time. I think heading might have an effect. First of all, what we're seeing on a 2d/3d match is an attempt of recreating what is happening during the simulation, but it might not be a perfect one. So, if a winger crosses the ball, striker heads the ball into the net and my defender just stands still, it definitely doesn't mean the heading skill is useless. For me, it just means that the simulation decided this specific situation should happen. Also, if wingbacks intercepting passes with headers never make mistakes even when they have 0 heading, that doesn't mean the heading skill is useless because maybe heading helps on the decision making process the sim goes through: "should this player intercept this pass or not". (Before the pass happens.) I like what you said. 25% odds for each outcome. It's exactly what I had on my mind despite not coming back to this thread. I was thinking that the more heading you have on your defender, the lesser are the odds of a winger getting the cross right. And maybe defenders head the ball but the sim is just not accurately representing it with 2d/3d images. But it's hard to understand what's going on, and even if you're willing to spend your time and energy on that, like you said, +1/-1 here or there is the same as nothing, so it's a tough topic to examine. Good for mz, makes the game less predictable 😸

charlesbee wrote:

...

It's been 9 months and I've actually changed my mind over time. I think heading might have an effect.

First of all, what we're seeing on a 2d/3d match is an attempt of recreating what is happening during the simulation, but it might not be a perfect one. So, if a winger crosses the ball, striker heads the ball into the net and my defender just stands still, it definitely doesn't mean the heading skill is useless. For me, it just means that the simulation decided this specific situation should happen.

Also, if wingbacks intercepting passes with headers never make mistakes even when they have 0 heading, that doesn't mean the heading skill is useless because maybe heading helps on the decision making process the sim goes through: "should this player intercept this pass or not". (Before the pass happens.)

I like what you said. 25% odds for each outcome. It's exactly what I had on my mind despite not coming back to this thread. I was thinking that the more heading you have on your defender, the lesser are the odds of a winger getting the cross right.

And maybe defenders head the ball but the sim is just not accurately representing it with 2d/3d images.

But it's hard to understand what's going on, and even if you're willing to spend your time and energy on that, like you said, +1/-1 here or there is the same as nothing, so it's a tough topic to examine.

Good for mz, makes the game less predictable 😸

 

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