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27-11-2020 17:40
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Season 76 · Week 8 · Day 53
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Football

Football » English » ManagerZone talk

Removing experience from the game discussion

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Many would think this an extreme move. But, Hockey has always worked fine without experience. Young players make your senior squad faster, while older players with high ball counts are the backbone of your squad.

At the moment experience is the strongest skill in the game, if you want to compete for senior trophies in football all your players need to have 10 in experience. Yet it can take to the age of 28-31 for slow trainers to reach that mark and by the time they do they are already deteriorating.

Removing experience, would make fast training players with 60+ balls at age 21 much more valuable because they could play senior games immediately.

You would need to look into how this changes the rate of yellow & red cards young team current accumulate when consistently playing higher quality opponents. Because if this a major function of the experience mechanic and will go down by removing it, then it's a no brainer from my perspective.
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Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[FLUSA]
President
Either remove experience or accelerate the way a player gains experience so he can get 10 balls at 23 y/old, I said it before, you train a youth from 16 y/old and he won't be ready to play at least until he's 26 y/old, that's 10 seasons of training, then he players for 3 seasons and by his 4th he's 30 y/old and deteriorating, doesn't make sense to train a player for 10 seasons only to be able to use it for 3.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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darkline wrote:
Either remove experience or accelerate the way a player gains experience so he can get 10 balls at 23 y/old, I said it before, you train a youth from 16 y/old and he won't be ready to play at least until he's 26 y/old, that's 10 seasons of training, then he players for 3 seasons and by his 4th he's 30 y/old and deteriorating, doesn't make sense to train a player for 10 seasons only to be able to use it for 3.


You were perfect!

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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darkline wrote:
Either remove experience or accelerate the way a player gains experience so he can get 10 balls at 23 y/old, I said it before, you train a youth from 16 y/old and he won't be ready to play at least until he's 26 y/old, that's 10 seasons of training, then he players for 3 seasons and by his 4th he's 30 y/old and deteriorating, doesn't make sense to train a player for 10 seasons only to be able to use it for 3.


If experience is to hard to remove from the game and would make the sim act in a completely different way because the Exp multiplier is hard-coded into making certain actions happen in certain ways. Then allowing players to reach 10 Exp by the age of 24 would be a good compromise.

Because you currently have dead space of 3-4 seasons for fast trainers and between 6-8 seasons for slow training players, after a player Uxx career finishes before they become useful senior players.

The Hockey model of player development with no experience skill would be ideal if it could be implemented in Football. But if that isn't possible, players being able to gain 10 experience by the age of 24 is a logical step in improving player development.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[FLUSA]
President
If I remember correctly, one of the selling points of the Uxx leagues was that players would gain experience on this games, but the experience the players get must be neglible because I was never able to see any difference.

So, another thing that could be done is to increase the rate at which players get experience on Uxx leagues, maybe more managers will sign up to them if they knew their players will get a real benefit from playing them, doing this is a win-win situation really.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[AUS]
President
darkline wrote:
If I remember correctly, one of the selling points of the Uxx leagues was that players would gain experience on this games, but the experience the players get must be neglible because I was never able to see any difference.

So, another thing that could be done is to increase the rate at which players get experience on Uxx leagues, maybe more managers will sign up to them if they knew their players will get a real benefit from playing them, doing this is a win-win situation really.


100% agree. It’s a logical thing. I don’t think you could remove experience until it was built into a new football sim which could be years away still so increasing the experience gained by playing in Uxx leagues makes complete sense

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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Agree it's noticable when players who is 25 much better than a 33 but due to exp he plays much worse. Quick fix like darkline said would be the quicker exp gaining by young players.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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In my humble opinion it could be a great improvement for the game to increase the experience a player gets from playing Uxx leagues and even official cups.

The amount of money we invest in all of these tours and stuff is a lot compared to the benefits we get. Also, when a player is sent to the Training Camp, it makes it unable for him to get any experience at all. So, increasing the exp/game ratio would be my call

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[MZUSA]
President
Agreed, improving the rate younger players gain experience, especially when they are involved in Uxx leagues would go a long way towards improving the balance between high quality young players and older players whose skills may not be as good.

Ant: Removing experience from the game discussion

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REMOVE. IT. NOW.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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I’ve always assumed it works in a similar way to PI. So if you train your youths to have high PI it compensates in part for the low exp multiplier.

Certain positions feel it more though - strikers and keepers. When you play a side full of 30+ players with awful ball distribution it’s particularly frustrating.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[FLUSA]
President
webregas wrote:
I’ve always assumed it works in a similar way to PI. So if you train your youths to have high PI it compensates in part for the low exp multiplier.


It might work similarly but experience is much more important than Pi, I have players with 6 Pi I use on my team with no issue but I can't use players with anything less than 9 experience or my team takes a hit and I start losing games I should win, the less experience the more random results I get.

I might be wrong but I think PI impacts the player and experience impacts the team, I believe experience gets added up and your team has a total count of experience, so for example if you have 11 players with 10 experience, your "team experience" would be 110.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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@darkline nice theory, definitely something in that.

Sv: Removing experience from the game discussion

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rayado_ivan wrote:
In my humble opinion it could be a great improvement for the game to increase the experience a player gets from playing Uxx leagues and even official cups.

The amount of money we invest in all of these tours and stuff is a lot compared to the benefits we get. Also, when a player is sent to the Training Camp, it makes it unable for him to get any experience at all. So, increasing the exp/game ratio would be my call


👍🏼

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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rayado_ivan wrote:
In my humble opinion it could be a great improvement for the game to increase the experience a player gets from playing Uxx leagues and even official cups.

The amount of money we invest in all of these tours and stuff is a lot compared to the benefits we get. Also, when a player is sent to the Training Camp, it makes it unable for him to get any experience at all. So, increasing the exp/game ratio would be my call


Yeah, I've got a squad of 22 YO players and they vary in experience from 4.5 to 6.5. The 6.5 players are all homegrown players that have been playing senior football since they came into my team age 16 because I sold everyone and started from scratch. So by the age of 24 they'll have an average experience range of about 6-8. It will take them until the age of 26-28-29 before they all reach 10 experience. Which is just too long. These boys have played as many games as I could possible give them, while sending them to a full TC every season.

Either remove it completely or increase the rate players gain experience by 2-4 seasons faster, so players can get to 10 experience by age 24.

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[B&IFF]
President
Similar for this fellow.

Brian MacDonald

Age: 22

SpeedSpSpeed: 10(10)
StaminaStStamina: 8(8)
Play IntelligencePIPlay Intelligence: 4(4)
PassingPaPassing: 7(7)
ShootingShShooting: 9(9)
HeadingHeHeading: 2(2)
KeepingKeKeeping: 0(0)
Ball ControlBCBall Control: 6(6)
TacklingTaTackling: 2(2)
Aerial PassingAPAerial Passing: 8(8)
Set PlaysSPSet Plays: 2(2)
ExperienceExExperience: 5(5)
FormFoForm: 9(9)
Total Skill Balls    58

Sv: Removing experience from the game discussion

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scruttino wrote:
Yeah, I've got a squad of 22 YO players and they vary in experience from 4.5 to 6.5. The 6.5 players are all homegrown players that have been playing senior football since they came into my team age 16 because I sold everyone and started from scratch. So by the age of 24 they'll have an average experience range of about 6-8. It will take them until the age of 26-28-29 before they all reach 10 experience. Which is just too long. These boys have played as many games as I could possible give them, while sending them to a full TC every season.

Either remove it completely or increase the rate players gain experience by 2-4 seasons faster, so players can get to 10 experience by age 24.


Age 24 is too early for 10, I think age 26 is more reasonable

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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tiger13 wrote:
Age 24 is too early for 10, I think age 26 is more reasonable


I disagree, because the best players that sell for a lot of money tend to have lower experience than my homegrown players of the same age for instance. By as much a 2 less in experience and that is a lot to make up. If a player only has 4 experience by the age of 22 it will take them until 28-29 to get to 10 and that is just to long.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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Case in point, these two players train a bit slower, but will be very good players and only have 4.5 in experience. It will take them until the age of 28-29 to get to 10 in experience

Claudio Domeka

Age: 22

SpeedSpSpeed: 10(10)
StaminaStStamina: 9(9)
Play IntelligencePIPlay Intelligence: 2(2)
PassingPaPassing: 1(1)
ShootingShShooting: 10(10)
HeadingHeHeading: 3(3)
KeepingKeKeeping: 1(1)
Ball ControlBCBall Control: 9(9)
TacklingTaTackling: 1(1)
Aerial PassingAPAerial Passing: 1(1)
Set PlaysSPSet Plays: 1(1)
ExperienceExExperience: 4(4)
FormFoForm: 9(9)
Total Skill Balls    48
Gavin Hutchison

Age: 22

SpeedSpSpeed: 10(10)
StaminaStStamina: 9(9)
Play IntelligencePIPlay Intelligence: 2(2)
PassingPaPassing: 3(3)
ShootingShShooting: 2(2)
HeadingHeHeading: 1(1)
KeepingKeKeeping: 0(0)
Ball ControlBCBall Control: 10(10)
TacklingTaTackling: 3(3)
Aerial PassingAPAerial Passing: 9(9)
Set PlaysSPSet Plays: 1(1)
ExperienceExExperience: 4(4)
FormFoForm: 9(9)
Total Skill Balls    50


Compare that to these two, who are already over 6 and you have a huge difference. These two will get to 10 experience around the age of 26

Jimmy Hendrix

Age: 22

SpeedSpSpeed: 9(9)
StaminaStStamina: 7(7)
Play IntelligencePIPlay Intelligence: 2(2)
PassingPaPassing: 10(10)
ShootingShShooting: 1(1)
HeadingHeHeading: 1(1)
KeepingKeKeeping: 1(1)
Ball ControlBCBall Control: 8(8)
TacklingTaTackling: 6(6)
Aerial PassingAPAerial Passing: 10(10)
Set PlaysSPSet Plays: 2(2)
ExperienceExExperience: 6(6)
FormFoForm: 9(9)
Total Skill Balls    57
Myles Kile

Age: 22

SpeedSpSpeed: 6(6)
StaminaStStamina: 8(8)
Play IntelligencePIPlay Intelligence: 8(8)
PassingPaPassing: 2(2)
ShootingShShooting: 1(1)
HeadingHeHeading: 2(2)
KeepingKeKeeping: 10(10)
Ball ControlBCBall Control: 1(1)
TacklingTaTackling: 2(2)
Aerial PassingAPAerial Passing: 10(10)
Set PlaysSPSet Plays: 3(3)
ExperienceExExperience: 6(6)
FormFoForm: 9(9)
Total Skill Balls    53


The difference is huge and really needs to be looked into as to how this can be improved or either removed from the game

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Even loyal players come in at 4, this part of the game needs a serious rethink

Richard Ridding

Age: 22

SpeedSpSpeed: 8(8)
StaminaStStamina: 9(9)
Play IntelligencePIPlay Intelligence: 2(2)
PassingPaPassing: 8(8)
ShootingShShooting: 1(1)
HeadingHeHeading: 1(1)
KeepingKeKeeping: 1(1)
Ball ControlBCBall Control: 1(1)
TacklingTaTackling: 7(7)
Aerial PassingAPAerial Passing: 4(4)
Set PlaysSPSet Plays: 0(0)
ExperienceExExperience: 4(4)
FormFoForm: 7(7)
Total Skill Balls    42

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[FLUSA]
President
In MZ players like Mbappe will be sitting on the bench waiting to debut on the senior team which with luck he would do when he turns 27 y/old and 3 years later when he turns 30 y/old he would lose speed/stamina and turn overnight into an old man heading for the retirement home.

Ant: Removing experience from the game discussion

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I've read somewhere that a petition made something change in the hockey version? Maybe we can start up a big petition with all the football managers to get experience removed from football?

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[B&IFF]
President
I don’t think removed, I think tweaked. Importance (effect per ball) or rate in gaining a ball.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[FLUSA]
President
brian_mcsnail wrote:
I don’t think removed, I think tweaked. Importance (effect per ball) or rate in gaining a ball.


I agree! Ideally I'd say make it more like real life football and have some players get 8/9 experience at 19 y/old and reach that level of experience no later than when they turn 24 y/old. Maybe, tie experience gaining to games played + intelligence + training speed and that way we'll have a lot of different variables to deal with, training options and game planning which makes it more interesting.

Ant: Removing experience from the game discussion

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darkline wrote:
I agree! Ideally I'd say make it more like real life football and have some players get 8/9 experience at 19 y/old and reach that level of experience no later than when they turn 24 y/old. Maybe, tie experience gaining to games played + intelligence + training speed and that way we'll have a lot of different variables to deal with, training options and game planning which makes it more interesting.


As Play intelligence trains really slow. Experience should be removed completely, they have the same effect. Only experience has even more effect than play intelligence. This still means players become more useful at later age when they have more PI. ( who trains a youth player on PI and not stamina/speed/BC and main skills first?)

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[B&IFF]
President
darkline wrote:
I agree! Ideally I'd say make it more like real life football and have some players get 8/9 experience at 19 y/old and reach that level of experience no later than when they turn 24 y/old. Maybe, tie experience gaining to games played + intelligence + training speed and that way we'll have a lot of different variables to deal with, training options and game planning which makes it more interesting.


That makes sense to me. Some players should come out of the Academy and be high in experience especially if playing in the U18 league or thrust in to senior football!

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[FLUSA]
President
yenscallens123 wrote:
As Play intelligence trains really slow. Experience should be removed completely, they have the same effect. Only experience has even more effect than play intelligence. This still means players become more useful at later age when they have more PI. ( who trains a youth player on PI and not stamina/speed/BC and main skills first?)


I don't like the idea of removing experience because IF it works as experience and that's a big IF, it would put extra weight on Pi, meaning there will be a bigger difference between a player with 6Pi and one with 10Pi than there is now. Also, removing a skill means modifying the SIM with all the variables and unexpected consequences that could bring to the game and it's highly improbable that they will even consider doing this.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[MZUSA]
President
darkline wrote:
I agree! Ideally I'd say make it more like real life football and have some players get 8/9 experience at 19 y/old and reach that level of experience no later than when they turn 24 y/old. Maybe, tie experience gaining to games played + intelligence + training speed and that way we'll have a lot of different variables to deal with, training options and game planning which makes it more interesting.


I really like this approach. I think having more variables to manage/consider will definitely be more interesting. I agree that removing it entirely is the wrong approach but it needs modification.
 
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