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17-06-2021 06:39
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Season 78 · Week 11 · Day 73
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Football » English » ManagerZone talk

Removing experience from the game discussion

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Many would think this an extreme move. But, Hockey has always worked fine without experience. Young players make your senior squad faster, while older players with high ball counts are the backbone of your squad.

At the moment experience is the strongest skill in the game, if you want to compete for senior trophies in football all your players need to have 10 in experience. Yet it can take to the age of 28-31 for slow trainers to reach that mark and by the time they do they are already deteriorating.

Removing experience, would make fast training players with 60+ balls at age 21 much more valuable because they could play senior games immediately.

You would need to look into how this changes the rate of yellow & red cards young team current accumulate when consistently playing higher quality opponents. Because if this a major function of the experience mechanic and will go down by removing it, then it's a no brainer from my perspective.
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Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[FLUSA]
President
Either remove experience or accelerate the way a player gains experience so he can get 10 balls at 23 y/old, I said it before, you train a youth from 16 y/old and he won't be ready to play at least until he's 26 y/old, that's 10 seasons of training, then he players for 3 seasons and by his 4th he's 30 y/old and deteriorating, doesn't make sense to train a player for 10 seasons only to be able to use it for 3.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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darkline wrote:
Either remove experience or accelerate the way a player gains experience so he can get 10 balls at 23 y/old, I said it before, you train a youth from 16 y/old and he won't be ready to play at least until he's 26 y/old, that's 10 seasons of training, then he players for 3 seasons and by his 4th he's 30 y/old and deteriorating, doesn't make sense to train a player for 10 seasons only to be able to use it for 3.


You were perfect!

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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darkline wrote:
Either remove experience or accelerate the way a player gains experience so he can get 10 balls at 23 y/old, I said it before, you train a youth from 16 y/old and he won't be ready to play at least until he's 26 y/old, that's 10 seasons of training, then he players for 3 seasons and by his 4th he's 30 y/old and deteriorating, doesn't make sense to train a player for 10 seasons only to be able to use it for 3.


If experience is to hard to remove from the game and would make the sim act in a completely different way because the Exp multiplier is hard-coded into making certain actions happen in certain ways. Then allowing players to reach 10 Exp by the age of 24 would be a good compromise.

Because you currently have dead space of 3-4 seasons for fast trainers and between 6-8 seasons for slow training players, after a player Uxx career finishes before they become useful senior players.

The Hockey model of player development with no experience skill would be ideal if it could be implemented in Football. But if that isn't possible, players being able to gain 10 experience by the age of 24 is a logical step in improving player development.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[FLUSA]
President
If I remember correctly, one of the selling points of the Uxx leagues was that players would gain experience on this games, but the experience the players get must be neglible because I was never able to see any difference.

So, another thing that could be done is to increase the rate at which players get experience on Uxx leagues, maybe more managers will sign up to them if they knew their players will get a real benefit from playing them, doing this is a win-win situation really.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[AUS]
President
darkline wrote:
If I remember correctly, one of the selling points of the Uxx leagues was that players would gain experience on this games, but the experience the players get must be neglible because I was never able to see any difference.

So, another thing that could be done is to increase the rate at which players get experience on Uxx leagues, maybe more managers will sign up to them if they knew their players will get a real benefit from playing them, doing this is a win-win situation really.


100% agree. It’s a logical thing. I don’t think you could remove experience until it was built into a new football sim which could be years away still so increasing the experience gained by playing in Uxx leagues makes complete sense

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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Agree it's noticable when players who is 25 much better than a 33 but due to exp he plays much worse. Quick fix like darkline said would be the quicker exp gaining by young players.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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In my humble opinion it could be a great improvement for the game to increase the experience a player gets from playing Uxx leagues and even official cups.

The amount of money we invest in all of these tours and stuff is a lot compared to the benefits we get. Also, when a player is sent to the Training Camp, it makes it unable for him to get any experience at all. So, increasing the exp/game ratio would be my call

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[MZUSA]
President
Agreed, improving the rate younger players gain experience, especially when they are involved in Uxx leagues would go a long way towards improving the balance between high quality young players and older players whose skills may not be as good.

Ant: Removing experience from the game discussion

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REMOVE. IT. NOW.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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I’ve always assumed it works in a similar way to PI. So if you train your youths to have high PI it compensates in part for the low exp multiplier.

Certain positions feel it more though - strikers and keepers. When you play a side full of 30+ players with awful ball distribution it’s particularly frustrating.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[FLUSA]
President
webregas wrote:
I’ve always assumed it works in a similar way to PI. So if you train your youths to have high PI it compensates in part for the low exp multiplier.


It might work similarly but experience is much more important than Pi, I have players with 6 Pi I use on my team with no issue but I can't use players with anything less than 9 experience or my team takes a hit and I start losing games I should win, the less experience the more random results I get.

I might be wrong but I think PI impacts the player and experience impacts the team, I believe experience gets added up and your team has a total count of experience, so for example if you have 11 players with 10 experience, your "team experience" would be 110.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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@darkline nice theory, definitely something in that.

Sv: Removing experience from the game discussion

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rayado_ivan wrote:
In my humble opinion it could be a great improvement for the game to increase the experience a player gets from playing Uxx leagues and even official cups.

The amount of money we invest in all of these tours and stuff is a lot compared to the benefits we get. Also, when a player is sent to the Training Camp, it makes it unable for him to get any experience at all. So, increasing the exp/game ratio would be my call


👍🏼

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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rayado_ivan wrote:
In my humble opinion it could be a great improvement for the game to increase the experience a player gets from playing Uxx leagues and even official cups.

The amount of money we invest in all of these tours and stuff is a lot compared to the benefits we get. Also, when a player is sent to the Training Camp, it makes it unable for him to get any experience at all. So, increasing the exp/game ratio would be my call


Yeah, I've got a squad of 22 YO players and they vary in experience from 4.5 to 6.5. The 6.5 players are all homegrown players that have been playing senior football since they came into my team age 16 because I sold everyone and started from scratch. So by the age of 24 they'll have an average experience range of about 6-8. It will take them until the age of 26-28-29 before they all reach 10 experience. Which is just too long. These boys have played as many games as I could possible give them, while sending them to a full TC every season.

Either remove it completely or increase the rate players gain experience by 2-4 seasons faster, so players can get to 10 experience by age 24.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[B&IFF]
President
Similar for this fellow.

Brian MacDonald

Age: 24

Sv: Removing experience from the game discussion

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scruttino wrote:
Yeah, I've got a squad of 22 YO players and they vary in experience from 4.5 to 6.5. The 6.5 players are all homegrown players that have been playing senior football since they came into my team age 16 because I sold everyone and started from scratch. So by the age of 24 they'll have an average experience range of about 6-8. It will take them until the age of 26-28-29 before they all reach 10 experience. Which is just too long. These boys have played as many games as I could possible give them, while sending them to a full TC every season.

Either remove it completely or increase the rate players gain experience by 2-4 seasons faster, so players can get to 10 experience by age 24.


Age 24 is too early for 10, I think age 26 is more reasonable

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tiger13 wrote:
Age 24 is too early for 10, I think age 26 is more reasonable


I disagree, because the best players that sell for a lot of money tend to have lower experience than my homegrown players of the same age for instance. By as much a 2 less in experience and that is a lot to make up. If a player only has 4 experience by the age of 22 it will take them until 28-29 to get to 10 and that is just to long.

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Case in point, these two players train a bit slower, but will be very good players and only have 4.5 in experience. It will take them until the age of 28-29 to get to 10 in experience

Claudio Domeka

Age: 24

SpeedSpSpeed: 10(10)
StaminaStStamina: 9(9)
Play IntelligencePIPlay Intelligence: 8(8)
PassingPaPassing: 1(1)
ShootingShShooting: 10(10)
HeadingHeHeading: 8(8)
KeepingKeKeeping: 1(1)
Ball ControlBCBall Control: 9(9)
TacklingTaTackling: 1(1)
Aerial PassingAPAerial Passing: 1(1)
Set PlaysSPSet Plays: 1(1)
ExperienceExExperience: 6(6)
FormFoForm: 9(9)
Total Skill Balls    59
Gavin Hutchison

Age: 24



Compare that to these two, who are already over 6 and you have a huge difference. These two will get to 10 experience around the age of 26

Jimmy Hendrix

Age: 24

Myles Kile

Age: 24

SpeedSpSpeed: 7(7)
StaminaStStamina: 8(8)
Play IntelligencePIPlay Intelligence: 8(8)
PassingPaPassing: 5(5)
ShootingShShooting: 1(1)
HeadingHeHeading: 4(4)
KeepingKeKeeping: 10(10)
Ball ControlBCBall Control: 6(6)
TacklingTaTackling: 2(2)
Aerial PassingAPAerial Passing: 10(10)
Set PlaysSPSet Plays: 4(4)
ExperienceExExperience: 8(8)
FormFoForm: 9(9)
Total Skill Balls    65


The difference is huge and really needs to be looked into as to how this can be improved or either removed from the game

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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Even loyal players come in at 4, this part of the game needs a serious rethink

Richard Ridding

Age: 24

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[FLUSA]
President
In MZ players like Mbappe will be sitting on the bench waiting to debut on the senior team which with luck he would do when he turns 27 y/old and 3 years later when he turns 30 y/old he would lose speed/stamina and turn overnight into an old man heading for the retirement home.

Ant: Removing experience from the game discussion

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I've read somewhere that a petition made something change in the hockey version? Maybe we can start up a big petition with all the football managers to get experience removed from football?

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[B&IFF]
President
I don’t think removed, I think tweaked. Importance (effect per ball) or rate in gaining a ball.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[FLUSA]
President
brian_mcsnail wrote:
I don’t think removed, I think tweaked. Importance (effect per ball) or rate in gaining a ball.


I agree! Ideally I'd say make it more like real life football and have some players get 8/9 experience at 19 y/old and reach that level of experience no later than when they turn 24 y/old. Maybe, tie experience gaining to games played + intelligence + training speed and that way we'll have a lot of different variables to deal with, training options and game planning which makes it more interesting.

Ant: Removing experience from the game discussion

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darkline wrote:
I agree! Ideally I'd say make it more like real life football and have some players get 8/9 experience at 19 y/old and reach that level of experience no later than when they turn 24 y/old. Maybe, tie experience gaining to games played + intelligence + training speed and that way we'll have a lot of different variables to deal with, training options and game planning which makes it more interesting.


As Play intelligence trains really slow. Experience should be removed completely, they have the same effect. Only experience has even more effect than play intelligence. This still means players become more useful at later age when they have more PI. ( who trains a youth player on PI and not stamina/speed/BC and main skills first?)

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[B&IFF]
President
darkline wrote:
I agree! Ideally I'd say make it more like real life football and have some players get 8/9 experience at 19 y/old and reach that level of experience no later than when they turn 24 y/old. Maybe, tie experience gaining to games played + intelligence + training speed and that way we'll have a lot of different variables to deal with, training options and game planning which makes it more interesting.


That makes sense to me. Some players should come out of the Academy and be high in experience especially if playing in the U18 league or thrust in to senior football!

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[FLUSA]
President
yenscallens123 wrote:
As Play intelligence trains really slow. Experience should be removed completely, they have the same effect. Only experience has even more effect than play intelligence. This still means players become more useful at later age when they have more PI. ( who trains a youth player on PI and not stamina/speed/BC and main skills first?)


I don't like the idea of removing experience because IF it works as experience and that's a big IF, it would put extra weight on Pi, meaning there will be a bigger difference between a player with 6Pi and one with 10Pi than there is now. Also, removing a skill means modifying the SIM with all the variables and unexpected consequences that could bring to the game and it's highly improbable that they will even consider doing this.

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[MZUSA]
President
darkline wrote:
I agree! Ideally I'd say make it more like real life football and have some players get 8/9 experience at 19 y/old and reach that level of experience no later than when they turn 24 y/old. Maybe, tie experience gaining to games played + intelligence + training speed and that way we'll have a lot of different variables to deal with, training options and game planning which makes it more interesting.


I really like this approach. I think having more variables to manage/consider will definitely be more interesting. I agree that removing it entirely is the wrong approach but it needs modification.

Ant: Removing experience from the game discussion

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So any deadline on when this is going to happen?

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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Quotes from manual.

"Although it increases over a longer term than Form, Experience is also affected by the number of games a player takes part in as well as his age."

"ManagerZone provides many competitions specifically for youth players in order to give them regular matches and provide them with competitive experience."

"Teams that play in the Senior and/or the U18 World League will earn team money and experience."

In my own experience I haven't seen a single slow trainer in experience. I think everybody gains the same amount xp from games ect. Where the difference comes from is how the players have been trained. How often he goes to the training camp, plays friendlies, cups or world/youth/senior league games.

Claudio and Gavin have joined the teams as they were created. Same thing goes with all the loyal players. They probably doesn't gather any extra xp from the games as they havent played one since they join the teams. There are some teams that doesn't play any Uxx leagues or even give any friendlies to their youth so they dont generate xp from them. Only xp they have gotten is the age xp that comes every seasons Day 1.

Then you see Jimmy and Myles that have played Uxx competitions and 3-4 friendlies per week their whole time in MZ. Thats where the difference comes in. Playing games is the way to train experience if they don't play games they don't generate xp as fast as the ones who does play games.

My youths look exactly the same regarding to experience if they have been same amount of times in TC. IF they drop out from the TC ring they start to get more xp than their age fellows that keeps going to TC as they play more games during the season. Another difference that I see while looking my squads experience is that players I have bought tend to have less experience and I can say with some confidence that they haven't played as many games at their former team as I would like them to have played.

This actually also brings another downside to the loyal players as they are sitting behind in experience from the get go.

Maybe all I'm trying to say is not playing friendlies/league games with everyone in your squad that are available to play those games equals not having the player put into experience slot in training field.

And to end it all I'm not saying that this would not be a good idea just bringing my own opinion to the table regarding to experience. Actually I would like if they removed experience from the game for the reasons specified above so everyone would have equal playing field.

Experience is much like Form, the more optimal you play your games the more it generates.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[FLUSA]
President
jere92 wrote:
Maybe all I'm trying to say is not playing friendlies/league games with everyone in your squad that are available to play those games equals not having the player put into experience slot in training field..


My younger players play friendlies 10 times a week + all the Uxx leagues and still don't get enough experience to play until they're around 26/27 years old, I send my best players to TC as those are the ones I want to keep so they can have a succesful career of 2/3 seasons until they start deteriorating and retire so they might be losing experience for expending 35 days at TC each season... but if I don't send them, they won't play anyway not due to lack of experience but due to lack of skills.

Bottom line, no matter what I do, there's no way I can use a youth player until he turns 27 y/old, 26 y/old if I'm lucky.... so training players is useless, I just do it because I like doing it but it's a waste of time and money, best thing to do is get rid of your senior team and play up to U23 level which is what I'm considering doing next season.

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Yeah the experience will become 10 at the age of 26-27 depending on TC schedule. If it comes any later it is a lack of matches played.

I think you mean your team plays 10 friendlies a week and single player get 3-4 friendlies a week? or am I getting something wrong here.

I think there is also a limit that how much experience player can get during the week. Like I said earlier much like with form. Playing less gets you less xp but doing the optimal 2 league, 4 friendly for a player gets you the maximum. Cup and other matches give you a slight boost.

That would make much sense as non youth league player could reach this with 2 fields of players. 1st field plays 2 League,4 Friendlies and 2nd field plays 6 Friendlies. I can run thanks to the youth leagues 3 fields of players (2L,4F) (2L,3F) (2L,3F). First two league games only ones that are counted as it is with the form. Even with my system my players are missing 1 Friendly per week but they play cup games to fill that.

I would also suggest that increase the experience gain so that players reach 10 experience at the age of 24 or it would get removed but removing it would also take some of the management skills required to manage your team out of the game.

So I pretty much see that form and experience go hand to hand.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[FLUSA]
President
jere92 wrote:
I think you mean your team plays 10 friendlies a week and single player get 3-4 friendlies a week? or am I getting something wrong here.


I have all the players from U19 to U21/22 & players age 24 to 26 playing 8 to 10 friendlies a week, they're of course tired but it's the only way to gain experience, that means I can't field a competitive U21 team and for U23 I have a mix on in form players with out of form players, depending on the circumnstances.

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[RAF]
President
Removing EXP altogether from the game will, most likely, damage the core settings of the game and we all know that, from many years now, nobody quite knows all the connections in the inner-game. So it does not seem feasible or desirable.

I would also opt for a maximum of 9@ exp to an age of 24, if the player is played regularly/standardly, but this results in making it so that a player gains 1@/season, so that you can have 6@ exp at 21, 3@ at 18 (last youth year) and to start with 1@ at 16 (not 0, as it is now).

This means either increasing general experience gains to 1@/season (now it's less than 2@/3 seasons, I think), as a general rule for everyone, or create a separate experience gain (2-3x?) out of all U23 competitions (official leagues and cups), so that the levels of experience can reach 9 sometime at 24 (even at the end of the season).

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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@civilu, very good idea to give youth players 1.5 balls of xp instead 0.5 when players arrive at club.
And to solve the problem, at day 1 of next season, all players should be increased by 1 ball in xp.

Then you can get 9 ball of xp at 24 if players play youth leagues, friendlies and cups.

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You should never remove exp from a game imo.

I think a lot of you are looking at it from the wrong angle.

2 solutions. Reduce the impact exp has unless your captain is enhanced with high exp( blew my kind that the captain has no influence, I mean wow)

Second solution is the above as I feel thats a given. However counter it by top class youth players with low exp but are equally as good with skills are more raw and hungry. They get a performance boost. This is essentially what we see in real life. The more raw and skilled a young player is the better he can be. Doesn't always go to plan. But somehow incorporate this into the game like exp works at a high age. More often than not the older player will say perform more 9 out of 10s. However the young player will probably get more 10s but his average rating will likely he slightly less unless you have a messi or Ronaldo.

Itll be down to the powers that be to look at this element.

I believe exp has a place in the game. Bringing on the youth players on the training pitch and during games for instance.

But I will trust you all in that exp is really over powered.

These are just my feelings btw.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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Also. I really don't think offering exp to players that pay tokens is the right way to go. Youre essentially saying because I pay real tokens I should be better than someone who doesn't.

Paying tokens should be aesthetic or fun. You already get huge benefits with player training. You can't also have exp buffs surely?

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[AUS]
President
k33n3y wrote:
You should never remove exp from a game imo.

I think a lot of you are looking at it from the wrong angle.

2 solutions. Reduce the impact exp has unless your captain is enhanced with high exp( blew my kind that the captain has no influence, I mean wow)

Second solution is the above as I feel thats a given. However counter it by top class youth players with low exp but are equally as good with skills are more raw and hungry. They get a performance boost. This is essentially what we see in real life. The more raw and skilled a young player is the better he can be. Doesn't always go to plan. But somehow incorporate this into the game like exp works at a high age. More often than not the older player will say perform more 9 out of 10s. However the young player will probably get more 10s but his average rating will likely he slightly less unless you have a messi or Ronaldo.

Itll be down to the powers that be to look at this element.

I believe exp has a place in the game. Bringing on the youth players on the training pitch and during games for instance.

But I will trust you all in that exp is really over powered.

These are just my feelings btw.


First solution doesn’t work as reducing the impact experience has isn’t possible without a new simulator. That looks to not be on the cards for some time do that can’t be done.

Solution two still involves reworking the simulator which isn’t a viable option, enhancing skills etc isn’t an easy thing for
Developers to do and with how fragile the game is it could in turn have a big impact on something else.

This is why suggestions around the speed experience is gained are most viable and easiest to introduce/change as it doesn’t have any impact on the simulator.

k33n3y wrote:
Also. I really don't think offering exp to players that pay tokens is the right way to go. Youre essentially saying because I pay real tokens I should be better than someone who doesn't.

Paying tokens should be aesthetic or fun. You already get huge benefits with player training. You can't also have exp buffs surely?


[Everyone has the option to join youth leagues and it makes the most sense that Uxx players earn more experience playing in competitions designed for them.

You can still benefit from this in the transfer market as a non-paying player buying players with increased experience from playing in team who do pay.

Ant: Removing experience from the game discussion

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They just might as well set every experience skill on every player on 10. that's easy too. Like someone said before, you have to pay to play youth leagues and cups. Same as for seniors. although not that expensive, it is a pay to get advantage feature.

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[Eesti]
President
Someplayers have debuted in european top leagues before the age on 18, but in MZ these things never happen, So I make a proposal that youths would arrive fully trained into your club and with 10 balls experience.

PROS:
* You dont have to train players anymore
* You dont have to spend money on coaches
* People wouldn't complain about youngsters eliminating them from Euros
* MZ Mbappe's wouldn't be sitting on bench
* U18s players debuting in top leagues like in real life

CONS: I cannot think of any...

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[B&IFF]
President
It is a game and not real life!

Take away training and i think too much of what I do like about this game is gone!

Personally I’d be adding things rather than removing!

Team chemistry would be a goood start! A team playing together thought youths ect would be more harmonious than a manager who imported 11 players at the start of the season!

Ant: Removing experience from the game discussion

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Why remove training? Remove exp. You train on play intelligence, this is the exact same thing for the sim. Normal skills * play intelligence * experience. Remove the last part.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[MZUSA]
President
brian_mcsnail wrote:
It is a game and not real life!

Take away training and i think too much of what I do like about this game is gone!

Personally I’d be adding things rather than removing!

Team chemistry would be a good start! A team playing together thought youths ect would be more harmonious than a manager who imported 11 players at the start of the season!


I agree, there should be some sort of benefit for teams that play the same squad together for many seasons. Bring youth up through the academy so they are familiar with the clubs style should confer some benefit. Plus increased incentive for managers to maintain a youth setup.

Sv: Removing experience from the game discussion

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evosa wrote:
Someplayers have debuted in european top leagues before the age on 18, but in MZ these things never happen, So I make a proposal that youths would arrive fully trained into your club and with 10 balls experience.

PROS:
* You dont have to train players anymore
* You dont have to spend money on coaches
* People wouldn't complain about youngsters eliminating them from Euros
* MZ Mbappe's wouldn't be sitting on bench
* U18s players debuting in top leagues like in real life

CONS: I cannot think of any...


Hahaha 😁

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[Eesti]
President
brian_mcsnail wrote:
It is a game and not real life!


Nice to see that someone wrote the gist of my post.

tiger13 wrote:
Hahaha 😁


Hopefully it really made you laugh.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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Remove training from ManagerZone, that's like taking away the whole charm of this game. It's like saying, let's take the ball out of football.
My god, what a bad idea.

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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I can see it was a scary bad joke. Don't make bad jokes!

Re: Removing experience from the game discussion

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It's already possible to have a player with 25y 10XP.
Even so, I agree that it could be easier to get 10XP maybe at 24.

But never removing the effects of the experience, please. We want a more real game and experience is definitily very important in real life.

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If not removed the players should be able to gain 10 exp arround 24 y/o.

Not fair that 31-32 y/o players play much better with worse skills than young ones with better skills.

Ang: Removing experience from the game discussion

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[MZDK]
President
What is the max amount of experience vs. age in the current sim/training?

16 years = 1 ball
17 year = 2 balls?

etc. etc.

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I agree with the idea of removing the experience skill from the game, or at least change the way of it's training, seems too linear how it is now.
WOuld like to see a player arrive at 8/9 experience around 23 years old (if they play a good amount of games), and then make them gain the 10th only at 26+.
The 10th @ in exp should need a lot more time to be gained compared to the others.
 
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