Change languageSim Bad Movement
For less randomness in the results;
Appreciation of good management;
More dynamic simulator (we are hostage to jpl);
Clearer efficiency criteria;
More consistency with match scouts;
Evolution of the game (the game will be 20 years old and seems to have stopped in time);
Greater attention to suggestions and improvements suggested by users.
After a discussion between several users, we decided to create a movement that showed our dissatisfaction with different situations in the game, the main one being the great randomness of the Simulator, generating absurd results with an exaggerated frequency. Everyone wants a better game and we are expressing our dissatisfaction with the aim of improving Managerzone.
The movement does not intend to be unanimous in complaints, but reflects the feeling of several managers who are disappointed with the direction the game is taking.
Join our cause, comment, complain, change the name of your team, we need to call the attention of the game managers and for them to see that the managerzone community is unsatisfied with how the game is being conducted.
Edited- Swearing isn’t tolerated in the forum and against forum rules
/chucky06
Football
Football » English » ManagerZone talk
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Edited: 20-08-2020 16:49
Total edits: 1
Views: 1028 Posts: 54
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Re: Sim Shit Movement
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chucky06 - 20-08-2020 16:55I don’t know anyone who does love the current simulator but it’s the same for everyone at least.
I think it’s fair to ask Crew for a response when a new simulator will be available in the future though. A transparent answer from the crew on any game development and any current or future projects would be much appreciated within the community though.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 20-08-2020 17:07Your comment is very correct, but I don't think the simulator is fair to everyone. The results are very random, bringing the results of strong teams closer to weak ones. They are creating an equality that is not correct, a better team should win most of the time, but this is not happening and is a complaint of many users who have been playing for many years.
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Edited: 20-08-2020 17:47
Total edits: 1
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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chucky06 - 20-08-2020 17:58zabaiugah wrote:Your comment is very correct, but I don't think the simulator is fair to everyone. The results are very random, bringing the results of strong teams closer to weak ones. They are creating an equality that is not correct, a better team should win most of the time, but this is not happening and is a complaint of many users who have been playing for many years.
It’s a fine balance though. The same teams are always in the Top World League because they are the best teams. The same teams regularly win Official Cups because they are the best teams. Take Hanzo before he recently left the game. He had the best team and is the most successful manager of all time. He didn’t win everything but he won more official cups than anyone, won the WL regularly but did he win all the time, no. You don’t want a game where the best team simply wins every game. It needs to be a fine balance
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 20-08-2020 18:23I understand your point of view, but I understand that these examples are minimal compared to what happens in the MZ underworld. I don't want to give the impression that there is no merit in MZ, what happens is that there is a very large number of randomness in the games. We don't want a game that always wins the best, but respecting the construction of good management in most cases. Let's say that an unexpected result happens 1 every 50 times in real football, in mz it seems that it happens 1 every 5 times, and that is what I and several other users are complaining about. And that is just one point among many others that we are complaining about.
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Beantwortet: Sim Bad Movement
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vaisi56 - 21-08-2020 11:23Well, the simulation is very monotonous and yet unpredictable. So I believe in order to be able to reduce the randomness, we'd need more variables/stats. While I'd love that, I'm pretty sure most managers won't and on top of that it's quite risky for a continuous simulation.
I disagree that the simulator is that unfair. It's definitely unbalanced and some tactics are simply over-powered. But that's it, I don't think there are controlled surprises. This could be "solved"/tackled with more play style management. But again - risky.
In terms of match scouts I completely agree. But that's probably the same problem as above. I guess it's a more vague simulation - therefore unnecessary. I always wished you'd have player and team scouts instead. They'll give you less, but more useful information.
MZ is definitely a little bit out-dated. But in the end it's also fairly active compared to many other 2000s browser games. Not an excuse, but it's actually not surprising how this game is getting "old".
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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webregas - 25-08-2020 00:29I don’t actually mind the sim in what I’d suggest are fair fight scenarios - eg. both teams do not play wings.
As soon as one does though it sucks the enjoyment out of the game as your options are limited.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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gorglbnlgnag - 25-08-2020 16:38I have seriously beaten the best senior teams with my u23 team, and STILL lost against bad to medium U23 teams in important matches. It's like the team is very promising on paper, and on the field. And suddenly (in semi finals / finals) they start sucking, like... WTF happened? Only way I can explain it: Seems like there is a luck factor involved, or a "success"-factor as I call it. If you succeed in u18, your results in u23 will be worse. It's like the SIM has decided enough is enough, you can only succeed a certain amount until you get SIMMED like all hell is loose. This happened to the best U23 teams in Norway two seasons in a row. There was a guy last season who bought all the best players in the market, for a huge amount of cash, he still got simmed and didn't even win the u23 Norwegian Cup. He had like 25 shots on goal against 5, and he lost. The same happened to me this season. I have beaten my opponent 2-0, 3-0, 4-0 in all my tests. Still I got beaten, and my team started sucking again. How? why? What happened? Why do my players start sucking out of the blue? And always when it matters? I've had enough for more than a year now. And this truly will be my last season if nothing changes.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 25-08-2020 18:24vaisi56 wrote:Well, the simulation is very monotonous and yet unpredictable. So I believe in order to be able to reduce the randomness, we'd need more variables/stats. While I'd love that, I'm pretty sure most managers won't and on top of that it's quite risky for a continuous simulation.
I disagree that the simulator is that unfair. It's definitely unbalanced and some tactics are simply over-powered. But that's it, I don't think there are controlled surprises. This could be "solved"/tackled with more play style management. But again - risky.
In terms of match scouts I completely agree. But that's probably the same problem as above. I guess it's a more vague simulation - therefore unnecessary. I always wished you'd have player and team scouts instead. They'll give you less, but more useful information.
MZ is definitely a little bit out-dated. But in the end it's also fairly active compared to many other 2000s browser games. Not an excuse, but it's actually not surprising how this game is getting "old".
I understand your point, I believe that the game in general is fair, but there is still a lot of randomness. We ended up losing a lot of games very unfairly. Every day we see results of strong teams losing to very weak teams, of course this must exist, it is good for the game, but I believe it has been happening with a lot of frequency. I see every day here games of the type where the winner kicks 30 times and his opponent kicks 4, and the result is defeat for whoever kicked the most, just to mention an example. These complaints are why we like the game so much and we want it to always improve, and we have the impression that it has evolved very little.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 25-08-2020 18:28gorglbnlgnag wrote:I have seriously beaten the best senior teams with my u23 team, and STILL lost against bad to medium U23 teams in important matches. It's like the team is very promising on paper, and on the field. And suddenly (in semi finals / finals) they start sucking, like... WTF happened? Only way I can explain it: Seems like there is a luck factor involved, or a "success"-factor as I call it. If you succeed in u18, your results in u23 will be worse. It's like the SIM has decided enough is enough, you can only succeed a certain amount until you get SIMMED like all hell is loose. This happened to the best U23 teams in Norway two seasons in a row. There was a guy last season who bought all the best players in the market, for a huge amount of cash, he still got simmed and didn't even win the u23 Norwegian Cup. He had like 25 shots on goal against 5, and he lost. The same happened to me this season. I have beaten my opponent 2-0, 3-0, 4-0 in all my tests. Still I got beaten, and my team started sucking again. How? why? What happened? Why do my players start sucking out of the blue? And always when it matters? I've had enough for more than a year now. And this truly will be my last season if nothing changes.
Excellent your point, that's exactly what I feel. There is a very high luck factor, and it seems that sometimes the simulator already chooses the winners of the championships. This is very annoying, if nothing changes, I probably won't play next season.
Very good your comment, thanks.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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lukaszsz182 - 25-08-2020 19:14I play this game so long know so can share my personal opinion about the sim. This sim is the one I don't like at all. I don't want to complain about it it's just sharing the facts.
Team who are 2-3 times worse should lose all the time ! Not 3-4 times per 5 games. I remember in the previous sim when if you had a better team you just simply won, there were surprises maybe once a week for me, twice, but these days sometimes 2-3 times a day.
I sold my team last season, I had a forum thread when my keeper with 8 balls back then + bunch of 17/18 players were winning or drawing many times against teams who had full squad arround 8-9 M, when the scores should be arround 8-0 for them at least. This shows the randomness.
Another thing, the tactics, sim is such a ignorant as he doesn't care sometimes what tactic you play ! I was a witness of a games when 3-2 in defence so the basic short defence the piramid you can call it worked absolutely fine against the wing team who were on the same level as my team and I actually won many times playing short tactic when back few years I would be crushed. In this sim even if you fail to choose the correct tactic, you play short DEF instead of a wide which is a good anti wing, you can still win creating even more chances then your rival.
Another thing sooo enoying about the tactic, I remember games when I made a perfect tactic, the opponents winger was completely blocked, even though he had a better team, but I studied him so his wing tactic was useless, guess what? it was like 23-5 SC for me and the sim made it 1-1 :), so being smarter, choosing better tactic doesn't matter anymore. Maybe better of play the default short tactic :)
Speed/Stamina doesn't matter as well, I used to have a 10speed 9 stamina player before I sold my team, and players like 7/7 or 8/8 speed/stamina were still catching him, they didn't necessarily had a huge play inteligence, I know because I could check the opponents players as the NCA. In the previous sim speed and stamina were making huge difference even if he had like 7 play inteligence, many managers say that speed and stamina only matters on the Transfer Market these days :)
Even when I check the National Team scores sometimes, and seeing huge nations loosing or drawing to probably x2 worse teams, it gives a lot's to think about.
Maybe they wanted to equal the chances so people won't quit the game or something?
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 25-08-2020 19:48lukaszsz182 wrote:I play this game so long know so can share my personal opinion about the sim. This sim is the one I don't like at all. I don't want to complain about it it's just sharing the facts.
Team who are 2-3 times worse should lose all the time ! Not 3-4 times per 5 games. I remember in the previous sim when if you had a better team you just simply won, there were surprises maybe once a week for me, twice, but these days sometimes 2-3 times a day.
I sold my team last season, I had a forum thread when my keeper with 8 balls back then + bunch of 17/18 players were winning or drawing many times against teams who had full squad arround 8-9 M, when the scores should be arround 8-0 for them at least. This shows the randomness.
Another thing, the tactics, sim is such a ignorant as he doesn't care sometimes what tactic you play ! I was a witness of a games when 3-2 in defence so the basic short defence the piramid you can call it worked absolutely fine against the wing team who were on the same level as my team and I actually won many times playing short tactic when back few years I would be crushed. In this sim even if you fail to choose the correct tactic, you play short DEF instead of a wide which is a good anti wing, you can still win creating even more chances then your rival.
Another thing sooo enoying about the tactic, I remember games when I made a perfect tactic, the opponents winger was completely blocked, even though he had a better team, but I studied him so his wing tactic was useless, guess what? it was like 23-5 SC for me and the sim made it 1-1 :), so being smarter, choosing better tactic doesn't matter anymore. Maybe better of play the default short tactic :)
Speed/Stamina doesn't matter as well, I used to have a 10speed 9 stamina player before I sold my team, and players like 7/7 or 8/8 speed/stamina were still catching him, they didn't necessarily had a huge play inteligence, I know because I could check the opponents players as the NCA. In the previous sim speed and stamina were making huge difference even if he had like 7 play inteligence, many managers say that speed and stamina only matters on the Transfer Market these days :)
Even when I check the National Team scores sometimes, and seeing huge nations loosing or drawing to probably x2 worse teams, it gives a lot's to think about.
Maybe they wanted to equal the chances so people won't quit the game or something?
Exactly my friend, there must be greater merit for the best teams. As you said, the guy can study the opposing team, use the correct tactic and even then random results happen. And I repeat, it can happen and it must happen to give emotion to the game, but it is happening very often.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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gorglbnlgnag - 25-08-2020 23:20@lukaszsz182: I do agree with everything in your last post. There is no correlations between tactics, there is no clear or obvious counter-tactics anymore, there is little to no correlation between skills and the actual performance of the player. It's all very sad and nothing makes much sense. You can play 4 defenders, wings, short, 5 defenders. Doesn't even matter. As long as you don't expose huge weaknesses. All you have to do is: 1. Get a bunch of decent players with no future, 2. Play two or three standard tactics, and don't make sudden changes in playing style. 3. Remember to play the same tactic 100% of the time in play-offs. There is no need for change at all! You can win just by doing nothing! In play-offs, teams worth 50 MILLION EUROS has lost against teams worth 5 million. It's a huge random / luck factor. So remember: you don't have to spend a calorie on fancy tactics, or to even analyze your opponent. It's waste of time.
With random results, more managers will have a piece of the cake. And also we have a pandemic going on, which increases the activity level. But in the long run this will all be bad for the game. The hard core of the game will leave, as they see this is just a big pile of shit. The pandemic will be over, and those who joined in 2020 will be back catching pokemons or something.
My clear and final message to the crew is: Manager game should always be about who can manage a team better than the other teams. Not: who can play the same undisguised tactic 4 times in a row and still win a trophy with average players! IT'S ABOUT MANAGING!
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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webregas - 28-08-2020 15:20A comment from Crew on the roadmap would be appreciated. There was a period of transparency last year where Crew responded to these threads and shared their plans which is all that’s really being asked.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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lukaszsz182 - 28-08-2020 15:56They are making the sim for the hockey, the beta is already there, because 333 users signed the petition on the forum. And crew responded well !
Maybe it's time for the football to make a move?
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Odp: Sim Bad Movement
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dawidl - 28-08-2020 19:41
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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gorglbnlgnag - 28-08-2020 20:00dawidl wrote:
After this we don't need to say ANYTHING else.
Crew?
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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gorglbnlgnag - 28-08-2020 20:22lukaszsz182 wrote:They are making the sim for the hockey, the beta is already there, because 333 users signed the petition on the forum. And crew responded well !
Maybe it's time for the football to make a move?
50-2 shots and 0-2.
Prime example of what is happening around here. Teams are being "owned" in a big scale every weak. A petition, a strong voice, or many voices are needed to change this madness.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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darkline - 28-08-2020 20:57dawidl wrote:
50 shots vs 2 shots and you lose 2-1? And I was pissed of about how I got eliminated on the National U18 cup losing 1-0 on the 93 minute after having 20 shots vs 3....
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1171116088&tid=139824
But seriously, your game must be some kind of record, don't even know how you managed to take 50 shots against your rival.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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lukaszsz182 - 28-08-2020 22:26THIS IS NOT HAPPENING ! haha OMG, Jesus Christ, If I was you I would send this result straight to support.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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lukaszsz182 - 29-08-2020 17:12
I won this game today, my team is sold our, look at my opponents value, a decent one, I should lose at least 7/8-0 but my players somehow won. With young keeper and a striker only who is not even good who got injured in the 56th anyways. Crazy...
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 31-08-2020 01:47lukaszsz182 wrote:
I won this game today, my team is sold our, look at my opponents value, a decent one, I should lose at least 7/8-0 but my players somehow won. With young keeper and a striker only who is not even good who got injured in the 56th anyways. Crazy...
Games like this are happening very often, so to support our complaints I did a survey that I post here below. Excuse me if there is anything confusing in the text, it is due to the translation from Portuguese to English, but I am here to answer any questions. Research shows how there are random results, especially when compared to real football.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 31-08-2020 01:48Community, through notes suggested through this topic, I then decided to explore the games of MZ and the “real world” in order to verify whether our cause is just or not. I would like to thank you for all your suggestions and I also await further opinions on this initial study. It is through your opinion that this content will prove to be valid or not and if it is enough to support our requests.
Methodology:
Due to the various perspectives that can be seen in a soccer match, it is hard work to focus on a method that does justice between a winner and a loser in a match, especially when we are comparing this with a football management game like the Managerzone. As such, initially I want to reinforce that “my opinion” is that MZ should not be correlated to real football, for several reasons I believe that the team with the best players and tactics should win more than inferior teams on a larger scale than real football. But as is just my opinion, this study focuses on a pure analysis between real football and MZ, since for many MZ must mirror real football.
The method I chose to assess a team's "merit" to win a match was through the number of correct submissions to the opposing goal. In the case of a tie in the submissions, the tiebreaker criterion was the chances of goal and then goal attempts. The data for the official matches were taken from the Flashscore.com website. The choice proved to be satisfactory, after analysis I concluded that in most of the games who finished the most won the confrontation. I checked the teams' submissions and made a list with the result. I didn't want to do an analysis by favorite winning or losing because in MZ it's complicated in most cases, especially in the bigger leagues, saying who is favorite or not, would not be of much help to us.
I'm sure there will be comments saying that many teams finish more by using PC, others that play defensively, others through counterattacks, etc. But over the course of collecting data, I realized the variety of matches that take place in real football. We found matches from various teams, but as far as I could tell, Mz and real football are similar in that sense. Despite the results of the research, reinforcement that is not even close to translating the series of absurd results that the MZ brings.
Another point of alignment is about “SIMZADA” (Simzada is the name that we give in Brazil the inexplicable results, like what you put here that the team kicked 50 times against the opponent and still lost the game), which in my analysis is different from “Zebra” (Dark Horse). Simzada in my opinion is a result of a rare and somewhat "unfair" event, but due to a game characteristic. For example: If Bayer is going to play with the Alavé-ESP. The chance of Alavés winning is very small, however, if the football gods provide a balanced soccer match, both kicking similar numbers and by chance Alavés draws or wins, I believe this was a Zebra, not a Simzada. However, if Bayer slaughter, do something like that, 20 kicks to 5, and even though Alavés draws or wins, I consider that a Zebra and a Simzada.
After explaining the points above, the analysis took the following form: I checked several games of the major leagues in the world (I chose the 2018-2019 season in Europe and 2019 in Brazil because there was no exceptional interference as in this last season, which was very affected by COVID) and I calculated the percentage of victories, draws and defeats of the teams that most finished in the determined match. In addition, I made a table with the games that there was a difference of 5 or more submissions between the teams, resulting in the result that I consider Simzada, which are the games where the team that finalized a difference of 5 or more ended up losing the game. For example: Team A finished 10 times and Team B 5 times, but the result was victory for Team B. It may seem that 5 is a little difference, but you will notice that in real football, as in mz, it is a considerable difference .
DEPURING THE DATA
I analyzed the 380 games of the 2018-2019 Premier League season, where 84 games showed a difference of 5 or more submissions between the two teams in the match.
I analyzed 200 games from the 2018-2019 Italian Serie A season, where 66 games showed a difference of 5 or more submissions between the two teams in the match.
I analyzed 200 games of the 2018-2019 La Liga Espanhola season, where 40 games showed a difference of 5 or more submissions between the two teams in the match.
I analyzed 200 games of the 2019 season of the Brazilian Championship, where 54 games showed a difference of 5 or more submissions between the two teams in the match.
In the case of the leagues where the analysis was made through 200 games, the rounds used were: 9th to 18th and 29th to 38th, less in the case of Brazil, which were from 1st to 10th and 29th to 38th. The idea of varying was to make sure that the show really reflects the games, regardless of the period (Rounds) in which they are held.
In the case of MZ, the matches of the first round of the current season of the six main MZ leagues (According to the National MZ Ranking) were analyzed, consisting of 66 matches, except in the case of Turkey, which were 55 (The 55Revizyon Türkistan team ☪ played only with juniors, as he lost all games and thrashing they were removed from the research to avoid distortion of the data).
Below is the table for analysis.
https://ibb.co/d61qtNr (table link) if it goes wrong in the post.
RESEARCH COMPLETION
We can see that after comparing the actual results and the mz, the MZ ends up forcing a lot more results against the team that finishes the most, especially when the difference is equal to or greater than 5. In leagues such as China, Turkey and Argentina there is a much higher number of Simzadas compared to real football. For example: In Spanish LA LIGA 200 games were needed to find 1 game where the team that kicked a difference greater than or equal to 5 lost the game (For those who are curious, the game was: Real Sociedad 0 x 1 Celta de Vigo), in the Turkish MZ league alone, they had 8 in 55 games. Demonstrating that MZ is a system that considers randomness a lot and does not favor those teams that look for more goals, as compared to real football. And detail that I did not enter even in bizarre games as two teams kicked the same amount and the result was 7 to 0 for some of them, something that I did not even find in real football and that happens with some frequency in MZ.
With that, it is visible that the teams that most finish (Be few or more 5) tie and lose much more in MZ than in real football, thus proving the lack of merit of the game. Remembering that the number of games is infinitely higher than the real games, so a simple increase in the percentage already does a terrible damage, imagine in the cases as 2, 3 times more like what I saw in the research.
Well friends, the text was long, but it is only the beginning of the research, but there are already strong arguments to prove that the SIM is random at a level noticeably higher than real football.
The next step now is to analyze the cups, which for me is the biggest injustice of this game, especially the Playoffs, that these random results end up undermining any season of any manager.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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chucky06 - 31-08-2020 02:22Great research not at the end of the day this is a simulated manager game and not real football. Comparing the two is nearly pointless.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 31-08-2020 02:27Precisely because it is a management game, I think research is important, because the way it is does not give credit to those who really deserve it. I even think that the comparison with real football is unfair, but the mz can under no circumstances be more unfair than real football.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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chucky06 - 31-08-2020 02:53Well I think that’s pretty obvious to explain-
There’s only 10 skills players can have. Many players have very similar skills and as you get into the top leagues it’s very competitive and every team can nearly beat every other team on its day.
Without increasing players skills, adding more tactical options, ways to play, team chemistry etc. managerzone is always going to throw out some random results. I’m definitely not an advocate of the simulator but let’s say it was to change in 2 seasons. Nearly every top team has spent millions of players for wing tactics. What if wings wasn’t anywhere near effective anymore? You’re basically changing the whole game then and I think that’s more likely for people to leave rather than some random results
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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dagriggstar - 31-08-2020 06:34I would be interested in looking at these statistics/data in full
I think the data is notable not for the amount of times the "lesser" team wins, but for the amount of games where a "lesser" team exists. If we are saying that in games where team A shoots 5 more times than team B, team A should win, we are also saying that there is a mismatch and team A is a strong favourite. In managerzone, these games seem to happen about 50% of the time in the top leagues, judging by the data. I think that is the more concerning number. Unlike real life, where it is possible to have massive financial advantages, in managerzone (in league play) we all play under the same conditions. There should be more equal games, not less.
I don't think it is super constructive to simply say the sim is bad. Like, in terms of how the players perform, why is it bad ? So far the only thing I can get out of this thread is that underdogs win too often, so in terms of improving the sim I guess you could take that and make the skill gaps between (for example) 9 and 10 tackling, larger (I am making these numbers up, but to go from 9 tackling player = 45% success rate and 10 tackling player = 48% success rate to 9 tackling player = 45% success rate and 10 tackling player = 50% success rate).
I would argue there are too many shots created in the current sim and that the solution is to have defenders play better. I use tackling as an example above, because tackling in particular I think is really bad. Like, if I look at a few of the high profile U21 NT world cup games (Brazil vs Romania, Spain vs Portugal, Turkey vs Netherlands, China vs Argentina)
Defenders attempt 192 tackles, succeed 100 times = 52% success
Midfielders attempt 111 tackles, succeed 61 times = 54% success
Strikers attempt 50 tackles, succeed 19 times = 38% success
I think defenders in this context should be succeeding more like 60% of the time.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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aldebaran - 31-08-2020 07:32
I have my players' skills open
If anyone wants to play continuous friendlies with me in order to gather more data and do some analysis while taking into account opponents skill @s, then leave me a message
just don't ask me to micromanage any tactics setup. you only get to chose between short passing and wings, nothing else :P
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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chucky06 - 31-08-2020 07:38aldebaran wrote:I have my players' skills open
If anyone wants to play continuous friendlies with me in order to gather more data and do some analysis while taking into account opponents skill @s, then leave me a message
just don't ask me to micromanage any tactics setup. you only get to chose between short passing and wings, nothing else :P
From my own experience, I’ve found Friendlies to not be a very good indication of teams ability just as scout matches aren’t too. It’s as if other factors come into play in league games that aren’t active in Friendlies or friendly leagues. For example experience might not be as active or influential in scout matches/Friendlies but come League game time it’s seen to be more effective changing the result of games. I’m not saying this hidden factor is experience, I was just using it as my example.Edited: 31-08-2020 07:40
Total edits: 1
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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aldebaran - 31-08-2020 11:48
chucky06 wrote:From my own experience, I’ve found Friendlies to not be a very good indication of teams ability just as scout matches aren’t too. It’s as if other factors come into play in league games that aren’t active in Friendlies or friendly leagues. For example experience might not be as active or influential in scout matches/Friendlies but come League game time it’s seen to be more effective changing the result of games. I’m not saying this hidden factor is experience, I was just using it as my example.
+1
but you can still get some insights about the RNG in the sim
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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darkline - 31-08-2020 12:32dagriggstar wrote:
I don't think it is super constructive to simply say the sim is bad. Like, in terms of how the players perform, why is it bad ? So far the only thing I can get out of this thread is that underdogs win too often, so in terms of improving the sim I guess you could take that and make the skill gaps between (for example) 9 and 10 tackling, larger (I am making these numbers up, but to go from 9 tackling player = 45% success rate and 10 tackling player = 48% success rate to 9 tackling player = 45% success rate and 10 tackling player = 50% success rate).
Don't forget the games in which your team just refuses to play and decides to give the game away....
This one for example: https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1154525215&tid=139824
I'm not bothered as it's from a friendly cup in which I have over 15 points over the 2nd and I'm already qualified to the playoffs, but this could happen anytime and if it happens in a cup playoff you're done.
What's wrong about this game I lost 4-1 if statistically it was an even game? That it's against an Argentinian D4 team that's on the relegation zone to D5 and there's no way this should have been an easy game, already played before against this team with the same set of tactical combination and beat them 4-0 on a game that could have been easily 8-0. I mean, if you have games like this in which tactics don't matter & a huge team difference don't matter, then that's worrying.
To be honest, I'm not sure if there's some sort of undiscovered bug at play here that just makes your team play like crap due to an unknown combination of circumnstances.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
By
lukaszsz182 - 31-08-2020 14:38
Another one lads, My superpower 18 y/o players defeated the team with this value ! Sometimes is like spitting in our faces them scores. How is it even possible?
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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lukaszsz182 - 31-08-2020 14:45chucky06 wrote:Well I think that’s pretty obvious to explain-
There’s only 10 skills players can have. Many players have very similar skills and as you get into the top leagues it’s very competitive and every team can nearly beat every other team on its day.
Without increasing players skills, adding more tactical options, ways to play, team chemistry etc. managerzone is always going to throw out some random results. I’m definitely not an advocate of the simulator but let’s say it was to change in 2 seasons. Nearly every top team has spent millions of players for wing tactics. What if wings wasn’t anywhere near effective anymore? You’re basically changing the whole game then and I think that’s more likely for people to leave rather than some random results
I agree 110%, I said it many times, even mada a suggestions, the skills range should be increased more than 1-10, too many similar teams, Argentina is a great example. They have div 7 active as far as I know. Before I sold my squad I could beat the premier league or div1 from ARG and lose to div5-6.
This days there is too many finance, and 1-10 skill range is not helping, but skills are not only one problem, another is this random sim, underdogs are so happy now when they can defeat x3 tougher teams, but does it mean you are stronger? no, it's unfair lottery.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 31-08-2020 14:59chucky06 wrote:Well I think that’s pretty obvious to explain-
There’s only 10 skills players can have. Many players have very similar skills and as you get into the top leagues it’s very competitive and every team can nearly beat every other team on its day.
Without increasing players skills, adding more tactical options, ways to play, team chemistry etc. managerzone is always going to throw out some random results. I’m definitely not an advocate of the simulator but let’s say it was to change in 2 seasons. Nearly every top team has spent millions of players for wing tactics. What if wings wasn’t anywhere near effective anymore? You’re basically changing the whole game then and I think that’s more likely for people to leave rather than some random results
What I am trying to show is that the results, even between similar teams, in a given match, some team dominates the other with a wide advantage and cannot win. Of course it can happen, but it is happening in many games. Teams kicking 5, 6 times more than the opponent and still lose. What I show in the research is that it happens so much that even in real football the randomness rate is so high.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 31-08-2020 15:04dagriggstar wrote:I would be interested in looking at these statistics/data in full
I think the data is notable not for the amount of times the "lesser" team wins, but for the amount of games where a "lesser" team exists. If we are saying that in games where team A shoots 5 more times than team B, team A should win, we are also saying that there is a mismatch and team A is a strong favourite. In managerzone, these games seem to happen about 50% of the time in the top leagues, judging by the data. I think that is the more concerning number. Unlike real life, where it is possible to have massive financial advantages, in managerzone (in league play) we all play under the same conditions. There should be more equal games, not less.
I don't think it is super constructive to simply say the sim is bad. Like, in terms of how the players perform, why is it bad ? So far the only thing I can get out of this thread is that underdogs win too often, so in terms of improving the sim I guess you could take that and make the skill gaps between (for example) 9 and 10 tackling, larger (I am making these numbers up, but to go from 9 tackling player = 45% success rate and 10 tackling player = 48% success rate to 9 tackling player = 45% success rate and 10 tackling player = 50% success rate).
I would argue there are too many shots created in the current sim and that the solution is to have defenders play better. I use tackling as an example above, because tackling in particular I think is really bad. Like, if I look at a few of the high profile U21 NT world cup games (Brazil vs Romania, Spain vs Portugal, Turkey vs Netherlands, China vs Argentina)
Defenders attempt 192 tackles, succeed 100 times = 52% success
Midfielders attempt 111 tackles, succeed 61 times = 54% success
Strikers attempt 50 tackles, succeed 19 times = 38% success
I think defenders in this context should be succeeding more like 60% of the time.
Saying that the Sim is bad is a way of drawing attention, but within the proposal you can see that we speak more than just SIM. Perhaps the most appropriate name for my questioning is UNFAIR Simulator, as this is clearly an improvement over the others, but much more unfair than previous versions.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 31-08-2020 15:06chucky06 wrote:From my own experience, I’ve found Friendlies to not be a very good indication of teams ability just as scout matches aren’t too. It’s as if other factors come into play in league games that aren’t active in Friendlies or friendly leagues. For example experience might not be as active or influential in scout matches/Friendlies but come League game time it’s seen to be more effective changing the result of games. I’m not saying this hidden factor is experience, I was just using it as my example.
I agree, unfortunately scouts and friendly matches have been ineffective in adjusting or testing any tactics.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 31-08-2020 15:09darkline wrote:Don't forget the games in which your team just refuses to play and decides to give the game away....
This one for example: https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1154525215&tid=139824
I'm not bothered as it's from a friendly cup in which I have over 15 points over the 2nd and I'm already qualified to the playoffs, but this could happen anytime and if it happens in a cup playoff you're done.
What's wrong about this game I lost 4-1 if statistically it was an even game? That it's against an Argentinian D4 team that's on the relegation zone to D5 and there's no way this should have been an easy game, already played before against this team with the same set of tactical combination and beat them 4-0 on a game that could have been easily 8-0. I mean, if you have games like this in which tactics don't matter & a huge team difference don't matter, then that's worrying.
To be honest, I'm not sure if there's some sort of undiscovered bug at play here that just makes your team play like crap due to an unknown combination of circumnstances.
That's right, my friend, that's the point I want to draw your attention to. It's okay to lose a game like this, but it should be less. Such results are happening many times. I would really like it to be a bug because CREW could fix it, but unfortunately it is something more complex.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 31-08-2020 15:11lukaszsz182 wrote:
Another one lads, My superpower 18 y/o players defeated the team with this value ! Sometimes is like spitting in our faces them scores. How is it even possible?
Great Example.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 31-08-2020 15:38This cannot be normal. These are just the games of the Brazilian and Argentine leagues in the first 11 games of this season.
And there were still other games that I think are unfair, but this one certainly leaves no doubt about my arguments.
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012097
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012051
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1166177179
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1166177190
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1166177194
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1166177195
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1166177196
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1166177203
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012053
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012057
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012058
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012060
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012064
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012068
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012071
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012073
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012077
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012084
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012086
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012087
Games like this can and should happen, but they must be rare, very rare, but that's not what happens in MZ.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
By
gorglbnlgnag - 31-08-2020 20:00This last post says more than any words can do. It's pure evidence that something is wrong.
Keep supporting the game though. We all hope for better times.
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Ce: Sim Bad Movement
By
t033 - 31-08-2020 21:49
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Beantwortet: Sim Bad Movement
By
samooo - 31-08-2020 22:12This ignorance sends very worrying signals. Please crew, why isnt there any communication from your side? Its not about this thread, its about everywhere, theres just nothing coming from your side. We dont know anything about whats happening. Thats disrespectful against your paying customers
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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zabaiugah - 31-08-2020 23:03t033 wrote:
Unbelievable. And there are people defending this Simulator. Unbelievable again.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
By
lukaszsz182 - 01-09-2020 10:30zabaiugah wrote:This cannot be normal. These are just the games of the Brazilian and Argentine leagues in the first 11 games of this season.
And there were still other games that I think are unfair, but this one certainly leaves no doubt about my arguments.
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012097
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012051
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1166177179
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1166177190
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1166177194
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1166177195
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1166177196
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1166177203
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012053
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012057
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012058
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012060
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012064
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012068
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012071
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012073
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012077
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012084
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012086
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&mid=1164012087
Games like this can and should happen, but they must be rare, very rare, but that's not what happens in MZ.
This is a joke, too many games like this, few years ago it happened but it was not likely like now, it's like a lotto draw or something, many managers won't complain because they get benefits from it, so they can defeat now better managers, but it's actually now them winning but random stupid sim.
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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lukaszsz182 - 01-09-2020 10:37Someona should make an official thread on admin forum (I recommend darkline), and paste some of this crazy scores, let them know we are unhappy, I don't think they read the normal forum too much. I would do it because I have access on admins, but I think darkline is the right person for it :)
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Re: Sim Bad Movement
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darkline - 01-09-2020 15:15lukaszsz182 wrote:Someona should make an official thread on admin forum (I recommend darkline), and paste some of this crazy scores, let them know we are unhappy, I don't think they read the normal forum too much. I would do it because I have access on admins, but I think darkline is the right person for it :)
No point as crew is aware, one of this threads about the SIM popups about twice a year, the most interesting with some constructive arguments was probably this one created by hanzinho:
https://www.managerzone.com/?p=forum&sub=topic&topic_id=12422253&forum_id=10&sport=soccer&offset=400
My feeling is that they don't want to touch the SIM as usually when they do, you have people that don't like changes and rage quit, though not changing the SIM IMO is worst as it only creates a slow bleed of players due to frustration or boredom, the SIM is the core of the game and even if it was an amazing SIM, when you discovered all you can discover about tactics & there's nothing new left to discover, it gets stale and boring.