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Are There Hidden Stats?

By jdpaulk - 20-11-2019 05:05

[MZUSA]

So, I have two comparable strikers, one of which I purchased this week. Both have 10 balls in shooting and similar stats in other skills, such as PI, stamina, and experience. Striker A has better heading, but since I do not use wing tactics, I assume these strikers should be similarly productive goal scorers. Nevertheless, match results are making me a little worried that the new striker (Striker B) could be a Trojan horse of incompetence. Being curious, I just ran 7 test matches of my starting 11 in a flat 4-4-2 against the same tactic. I next ran another 8 test matches where I swapped the positions of my two forwards to control for the possibility that one side of my defense may be better/worse than the other. I then crunched the stats. Striker A had 106 shots, 85 (80.1%) of which were on frame. Striker B had 81 shots, 57 (70.4%) of which were on frame. Striker A scored 13 goals on 12.2% of his total shots. Striker B scored 3 goals on 3.7% of his total shots. [b]Wise minds of MZ, is it possible that some players are just plain terrible compared to others despite having similar stats? [/b] [u]Striker A/B[/u] Speed = 8/9 Stamina = 5/7 PI = 6/8 Shooting = 10/10 Ball Control = 8/9 Experience = 10/10So, I have two comparable strikers, one of which I purchased this week. Both have 10 balls in shooting and similar stats in other skills, such as PI, stamina, and experience. Striker A has better heading, but since I do not use wing tactics, I assume these strikers should be similarly productive goal scorers. Nevertheless, match results are making me a little worried that the new striker (Striker B) could be a Trojan horse of incompetence.

Being curious, I just ran 7 test matches of my starting 11 in a flat 4-4-2 against the same tactic. I next ran another 8 test matches where I swapped the positions of my two forwards to control for the possibility that one side of my defense may be better/worse than the other. I then crunched the stats.

Striker A had 106 shots, 85 (80.1%) of which were on frame.
Striker B had 81 shots, 57 (70.4%) of which were on frame.

Striker A scored 13 goals on 12.2% of his total shots.
Striker B scored 3 goals on 3.7% of his total shots.

Wise minds of MZ, is it possible that some players are just plain terrible compared to others despite having similar stats?


Striker A/B
Speed = 8/9
Stamina = 5/7
PI = 6/8
Shooting = 10/10
Ball Control = 8/9
Experience = 10/10

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Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By scruttino - 12-12-2019 23:11

[AUSNZ]

But your analysis wouldn't be able to explain why two players with exactly the same skills, playing in the same position, with the same players around and against the same opposition convert chances differently

panboy wrote:

I have realised something about two attributes that explains the difference in goals between the American players mentioned, but I won’t tell my secrets ;) Also I think a 10 is a 10 and a 9 is a 9, equal for all players, but I think attributes work in more complex ways than for example higher shooting on the forward would automatically mean more goals by that player. There’s no I in team!

But your analysis wouldn't be able to explain why two players with exactly the same skills, playing in the same position, with the same players around and against the same opposition convert chances differently

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By webunited - 14-12-2019 04:20

[Sugar]
President

I agree with darkline There's thunder or powder hidden attributes somewhere... 😈I agree with darkline

There's thunder or powder hidden attributes somewhere...

😈

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By bleitzel - 22-12-2019 16:18

[MZUSA]

I’m inclined to agree with Darkline. From a coding/game theory perspective that’s how I would have created a football simulator. From my personal anecdotal experience I have 1 striker who scores more than expected no matter how I’ve moved him and my other strikers around in my tactics. We were just given the reveal of Training Speed. One could argue that this is a new coding addition to the sim as part of the youth analysis system revamp, but I think that highly unlikely. Come to think of it, in regards to the youth analysis system, I believe CREW gave us some more insights. If I remember correctly the youth analysis is not 100% correct. That there is a serious chance that the analysis we see can be wrong. I.e.: a youth listed with 4 training speed may actually be a 3 or 2. The thinking is that the analysis is done by your “human” scout and therefore isn’t always 100% accurate. So that would indicate a hidden calculation/attribute. Then there’s Darkline’s attempts at statistical analysis experiments that have merit. And lastly the revealed code excerpt that Darkline mentioned. That would be my summation of the case for hidden attributes.I’m inclined to agree with Darkline.

From a coding/game theory perspective that’s how I would have created a football simulator.

From my personal anecdotal experience I have 1 striker who scores more than expected no matter how I’ve moved him and my other strikers around in my tactics.

We were just given the reveal of Training Speed. One could argue that this is a new coding addition to the sim as part of the youth analysis system revamp, but I think that highly unlikely.

Come to think of it, in regards to the youth analysis system, I believe CREW gave us some more insights. If I remember correctly the youth analysis is not 100% correct. That there is a serious chance that the analysis we see can be wrong. I.e.: a youth listed with 4 training speed may actually be a 3 or 2. The thinking is that the analysis is done by your “human” scout and therefore isn’t always 100% accurate. So that would indicate a hidden calculation/attribute.

Then there’s Darkline’s attempts at statistical analysis experiments that have merit.

And lastly the revealed code excerpt that Darkline mentioned.

That would be my summation of the case for hidden attributes.

Sv: Are There Hidden Stats?

By benne - 29-12-2019 18:59

[STARS]
President

Interesting discussion, but one could for sure argue that training speed wasn't hidden before. It was just not displayed in the same way. But everyone knew that players trained at different speed and it was well shown in the training grafics. It still are, just not with ⭐⭐⭐ and precise.Interesting discussion, but one could for sure argue that training speed wasn't hidden before. It was just not displayed in the same way. But everyone knew that players trained at different speed and it was well shown in the training grafics. It still are, just not with ⭐⭐⭐ and precise.

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By darkline - 20-04-2020 01:50

[FLUSA]
President

Just came here to gloat a bit, can't help myself, and just say that my awful analysis was 100% correct as it was confirmed by a CREW member that HIDDEN SKILLS EXIST and because of that not two players are equal.... It's an interview in Spanish, around minute 59 is where the crew member gives details about hidden skills and the influence they have on the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlH61mmYN3k&feature=youtu.be

franella82 wrote:

Your analysis is awfull, head have an average convertion ratio of 18 to 30% (dependant of your striker skills and minutes player).

Dont confuse noob mánagers please, hidden skills DONT EXIST

Just came here to gloat a bit, can't help myself, and just say that my awful analysis was 100% correct as it was confirmed by a CREW member that HIDDEN SKILLS EXIST and because of that not two players are equal....

It's an interview in Spanish, around minute 59 is where the crew member gives details about hidden skills and the influence they have on the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlH61mmYN3k&feature=youtu.be

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By franella82 - 20-04-2020 13:36

[CBA-MZ]

He never pointed out "hidden factors" as an individual skill, on the contrary, he always spoke of collective aspects that enter in the "simulation black box". and five minutes later he said that these weren't important either.

darkline wrote:

Just came here to gloat a bit, can't help myself, and just say that my awful analysis was 100% correct as it was confirmed by a CREW member that HIDDEN SKILLS EXIST and because of that not two players are equal....

It's an interview in Spanish, around minute 59 is where the crew member gives details about hidden skills and the influence they have on the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlH61mmYN3k&feature=youtu.be

He never pointed out "hidden factors" as an individual skill, on the contrary, he always spoke of collective aspects that enter in the "simulation black box". and five minutes later he said that these weren't important either.

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By darkline - 20-04-2020 14:04

[FLUSA]
President

He said he saw how a generic player is built and he can confirm all players have hidden skills, can't be more explicit than that really.... he also said he can't tell what those hidden skills are because that would be giving too much info but based on my observations and experience with similar games I imagine there's "adaptability" that influences how much time a new player needs to "adapt" to a new team and start playing at their peak, "chemistry" that influences how players interact with each other and could have a negative or positive impact on the team as a whole (he almost explicitly said that on the interview without spelling it out) and probably something like mentality, that has an impact on how well or poorly a player performs on the pitch on a regular basis, a player with a poor mentality might not play as well as he should according to his skills while a player with a good mentality might we more consistent and play better than he should. That's just a few I can think of, I have no way to prove if I'm right or wrong but I'm 95% sure those three I mentioned exist or at least some very similar hidden skills to what I described. Aggressiveness could be a 4th hidden skill and that would explain why some players tend to get more cards even if you move them to a different position.

franella82 wrote:

He never pointed out "hidden factors" as an individual skill, on the contrary, he always spoke of collective aspects that enter in the "simulation black box". and five minutes later he said that these weren't important either.

He said he saw how a generic player is built and he can confirm all players have hidden skills, can't be more explicit than that really.... he also said he can't tell what those hidden skills are because that would be giving too much info but based on my observations and experience with similar games I imagine there's "adaptability" that influences how much time a new player needs to "adapt" to a new team and start playing at their peak, "chemistry" that influences how players interact with each other and could have a negative or positive impact on the team as a whole (he almost explicitly said that on the interview without spelling it out) and probably something like mentality, that has an impact on how well or poorly a player performs on the pitch on a regular basis, a player with a poor mentality might not play as well as he should according to his skills while a player with a good mentality might we more consistent and play better than he should.

That's just a few I can think of, I have no way to prove if I'm right or wrong but I'm 95% sure those three I mentioned exist or at least some very similar hidden skills to what I described. Aggressiveness could be a 4th hidden skill and that would explain why some players tend to get more cards even if you move them to a different position.

Edited: 20-04-2020 14:04
Total edits: 1

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By franella82 - 20-04-2020 14:19

[CBA-MZ]

Im agree with you at that point, before you had highlighted something else. I followed your example of two of your strikers and in that case the analysis was wrong. I checked in MzLiveproject (thanks Sandoz) and your striker with "hidden skills" Tyrel Brandt have an extraordinary season 72 and a poor season 73. The explanation is not the individual player, is the collective dimension of the game.

darkline wrote:

He said he saw how a generic player is built and he can confirm all players have hidden skills, can't be more explicit than that really.... he also said he can't tell what those hidden skills are because that would be giving too much info but based on my observations and experience with similar games I imagine there's "adaptability" that influences how much time a new player needs to "adapt" to a new team and start playing at their peak, "chemistry" that influences how players interact with each other and could have a negative or positive impact on the team as a whole (he almost explicitly said that on the interview without spelling it out) and probably something like mentality, that has an impact on how well or poorly a player performs on the pitch on a regular basis, a player with a poor mentality might not play as well as he should according to his skills while a player with a good mentality might we more consistent and play better than he should.

That's just a few I can think of, I have no way to prove if I'm right or wrong but I'm 95% sure those three I mentioned exist or at least some very similar hidden skills to what I described. Aggressiveness could be a 4th hidden skill and that would explain why some players tend to get more cards even if you move them to a different position.

Im agree with you at that point, before you had highlighted something else. I followed your example of two of your strikers and in that case the analysis was wrong. I checked in MzLiveproject (thanks Sandoz) and your striker with "hidden skills" Tyrel Brandt have an extraordinary season 72 and a poor season 73. The explanation is not the individual player, is the collective dimension of the game.

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By darkline - 20-04-2020 15:25

[FLUSA]
President

Tyrell didn't had a poor season 73, he had an amazing season 73 given the fact that I got a new striker (Flores) and he was playing only 5/10 minutes a game, also keep in mind that on Season 73 he deteriorated to 6 speed & 8 stamina, which is a bit slow for my taste. All deteriorated and just playing 15 minutes each game he still delivered the goods for me and was able to make the top scorers list of the MLS, which is not too bad IMO... BTW, got another "top" striker and this guy also wasn't able to score goals for me no matter what, Julio Lopes https://www.managerzone.com/?p=players&pid=202035026, I thought he was going to be great based on skills but my current cheap Indonesian 5 Pi striker he was supposed to replaced just scored a lot more often, in the end I sold the new striker for $5.5M and kept the Indonesian with 5 Pi who doesn't look as fancy but at least, he can put the ball on the back of the net which is all I care about.

franella82 wrote:

Im agree with you at that point, before you had highlighted something else. I followed your example of two of your strikers and in that case the analysis was wrong. I checked in MzLiveproject (thanks Sandoz) and your striker with "hidden skills" Tyrel Brandt have an extraordinary season 72 and a poor season 73. The explanation is not the individual player, is the collective dimension of the game.

Tyrell didn't had a poor season 73, he had an amazing season 73 given the fact that I got a new striker (Flores) and he was playing only 5/10 minutes a game, also keep in mind that on Season 73 he deteriorated to 6 speed & 8 stamina, which is a bit slow for my taste. All deteriorated and just playing 15 minutes each game he still delivered the goods for me and was able to make the top scorers list of the MLS, which is not too bad IMO...

BTW, got another "top" striker and this guy also wasn't able to score goals for me no matter what, Julio Lopes https://www.managerzone.com/?p=players&pid=202035026, I thought he was going to be great based on skills but my current cheap Indonesian 5 Pi striker he was supposed to replaced just scored a lot more often, in the end I sold the new striker for $5.5M and kept the Indonesian with 5 Pi who doesn't look as fancy but at least, he can put the ball on the back of the net which is all I care about.

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By franella82 - 20-04-2020 17:32

[CBA-MZ]

S69 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 18% S70 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 20% S71 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 17% [b]S72 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 28%[/b] S73 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 14% Season 72 was the exception, not the rule, maybe you have a better team that season. Regular numbers for a regular striker.

darkline wrote:

S69 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 18%
S70 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 20%
S71 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 17%
S72 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 28%
S73 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 14%

Season 72 was the exception, not the rule, maybe you have a better team that season. Regular numbers for a regular striker.

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By darkline - 20-04-2020 17:43

[FLUSA]
President

Absolutely correct, after winning the Champions Cup I decided to take on a new challenge, see if I could win the MLS or any cup with a homegrown team with no foreigners, only buying cheap $1 19 y/olds and training them up, this took me about 7/8 seasons and I successfully completed my challenge on Season 70, tried to repeat my success on S71 but came short, on S72 I abandoned the experiment and open the club to foreigner reinforcements. So yes, you could say my team was weaker and that's the reason Tyrell was more successful on S72.

franella82 wrote:

S69 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 18%
S70 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 20%
S71 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 17%
S72 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 28%
S73 MLS Tyrell convertion rating 14%

Season 72 was the exception, not the rule, maybe you have a better team that season. Regular numbers for a regular striker.

Absolutely correct, after winning the Champions Cup I decided to take on a new challenge, see if I could win the MLS or any cup with a homegrown team with no foreigners, only buying cheap $1 19 y/olds and training them up, this took me about 7/8 seasons and I successfully completed my challenge on Season 70, tried to repeat my success on S71 but came short, on S72 I abandoned the experiment and open the club to foreigner reinforcements. So yes, you could say my team was weaker and that's the reason Tyrell was more successful on S72.

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By darkline - 20-04-2020 17:53

[FLUSA]
President

Tyrell was the top MLS scorer on S70 by a margin of about 10 goals btw, conversion rate is an important number but it doesn't tell the whole story. For example, on S70 his shots on target was a whooping 94.12% while on S72 he was less accurate with a SoT% of 89.81% but his conversion rate was better. Anyway, going of topic a bit... the discussion was Tyrell vs Plant and also the existence of hidden stats that you said categorically didn't exist and now have been proven without doubt that they do exist.Tyrell was the top MLS scorer on S70 by a margin of about 10 goals btw, conversion rate is an important number but it doesn't tell the whole story. For example, on S70 his shots on target was a whooping 94.12% while on S72 he was less accurate with a SoT% of 89.81% but his conversion rate was better.

Anyway, going of topic a bit... the discussion was Tyrell vs Plant and also the existence of hidden stats that you said categorically didn't exist and now have been proven without doubt that they do exist.

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By jose4003 - 21-04-2020 21:22

Now that is clear that hidden stat DOES exist, this topic is really interesting to learn more things about the gameNow that is clear that hidden stat DOES exist, this topic is really interesting to learn more things about the game

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By lukaszsz182 (RA) (NCA) - 22-04-2020 13:19

[POLSKA]

This matter bothers me since i started playing :) It's like many times the worse strikers (oficially by the skills lay out) seem to be much better than other ones. Could be hidden skills could be the position on the pitch. Many great managers believe thant moving player arround on the tactic page by 1px could make huge difference. For example the heading striker. Some games when I check the stats one of my 3 strikers has only few shots, then another game he has the most. The reason for that is the hidden skills? I don't know. Could be that bad midfielders for instance can make great striker turn into a bad one statistically for example, as he won't be getting proper passes etc, So one pass could create goal while the other one won't Maybe just a bit percentage of lottery all together. No ideas, but if we would know then this wouldn't be fun I guess....This matter bothers me since i started playing :) It's like many times the worse strikers (oficially by the skills lay out) seem to be much better than other ones. Could be hidden skills could be the position on the pitch.

Many great managers believe thant moving player arround on the tactic page by 1px could make huge difference. For example the heading striker.

Some games when I check the stats one of my 3 strikers has only few shots, then another game he has the most. The reason for that is the hidden skills? I don't know.

Could be that bad midfielders for instance can make great striker turn into a bad one statistically for example, as he won't be getting proper passes etc, So one pass could create goal while the other one won't

Maybe just a bit percentage of lottery all together. No ideas, but if we would know then this wouldn't be fun I guess....

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By darkline - 22-04-2020 13:48

[FLUSA]
President

He also said that's true on that interview.... he didn't say a huge difference but he said the coordinates x/y of players influence the simulation.

lukaszsz182 wrote:

Many great managers believe thant moving player arround on the tactic page by 1px could make huge difference. For example the heading striker.

He also said that's true on that interview.... he didn't say a huge difference but he said the coordinates x/y of players influence the simulation.

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By lam - 07-05-2020 06:48

[Canada]

I've been playing this game for a long time and I can say I remember there was discussions of hidden stats for players with MZ Canada members back in the day. Didn't really try to prove it or anything but Canada NT Player Dale Hightower, slow as hell I think he was a 5 speed 9 shooting 9 bc striker. That fricken player was a goal scoring machine. Also I remember talk of "chemistry" where if you transfer too many players it would have some adverse affects on your team. Also we did talk about different players gaining balls faster, how changing training each day is better than leaving the player to train on the same stat everyday... Until recently, training speed was revealed so we were right about that. Also placing players is an obvious hidden factor. The default 4-4-2 is terrible. But if you change the players position in a 4-4-2 then you get results right away... Chemistry I think is a big hidden stat, like in real life, some players just player better with certain players. I don't know how you program that but ya. Another conspiracy theory is that the sim changes what tactics will be successful for that particular season, competition. You may want to use wings 4-3-3 one season in league but it is not as good in Cups... Same for FLs... Friendlies, it's hard to explain but after years of playing it's been thought of. Not sure if it ties in with mentality, pressing and style... But those have been there from the beginning. Sorry for the rant but I find this very fascinating about the game. Stay safe everyone.I've been playing this game for a long time and I can say I remember there was discussions of hidden stats for players with MZ Canada members back in the day. Didn't really try to prove it or anything but Canada NT Player Dale Hightower, slow as hell I think he was a 5 speed 9 shooting 9 bc striker. That fricken player was a goal scoring machine.

Also I remember talk of "chemistry" where if you transfer too many players it would have some adverse affects on your team.

Also we did talk about different players gaining balls faster, how changing training each day is better than leaving the player to train on the same stat everyday... Until recently, training speed was revealed so we were right about that.

Also placing players is an obvious hidden factor. The default 4-4-2 is terrible. But if you change the players position in a 4-4-2 then you get results right away...

Chemistry I think is a big hidden stat, like in real life, some players just player better with certain players. I don't know how you program that but ya.

Another conspiracy theory is that the sim changes what tactics will be successful for that particular season, competition. You may want to use wings 4-3-3 one season in league but it is not as good in Cups... Same for FLs... Friendlies, it's hard to explain but after years of playing it's been thought of. Not sure if it ties in with mentality, pressing and style... But those have been there from the beginning. Sorry for the rant but I find this very fascinating about the game. Stay safe everyone.

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By lam - 07-05-2020 06:50

[Canada]

Also i was doing terrible in the league until the last 2 games, I made a minor change in 1 players position, mentality and pressing, kept my players the same, no transfers, and i've been getting better results in league and cups... go figure eh! The sim will always surprise me.Also i was doing terrible in the league until the last 2 games, I made a minor change in 1 players position, mentality and pressing, kept my players the same, no transfers, and i've been getting better results in league and cups... go figure eh! The sim will always surprise me.

Re: Are There Hidden Stats?

By douglaskampl - 10-05-2020 18:49

[BRAU18]
President

I believe in hidden stats. I've seen a couple of players performing above their displayed stats. I also have a youth player with pretty average stats that keeps scoring goals even though his shooting is terrible. Who knows. Very interesting topic anyway.I believe in hidden stats. I've seen a couple of players performing above their displayed stats. I also have a youth player with pretty average stats that keeps scoring goals even though his shooting is terrible.

Who knows. Very interesting topic anyway.

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