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28-02-2021 19:16
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Season 77 · Week 8 · Day 55
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Youth Potential Tool

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[FLUSA]
President
Just opened this thread to discuss the Youth Potential tool and share your experiences, also to try to figure it out a bit.

So I have a weird case, I have this player that I'm training as a keeper:



And I got this scout report for him



So my guess is my project of keeper will be a waste and will max out at 8 keeping, but here's what I'm puzzle about, his low skills are shooting/pi at 2 stars but I already know his keeping will be at least 8.... so it seems for this tool, "2 stars = 8 balls"?

I really like that we can check out current youths btw.
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Re: Youth Potential Tool

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Yes, we should take things as they really are.
I'm waiting for examples like that.
4 stars on secundary skills with 1-2 stars weaknesses on speed/stamina.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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I've read what the crew and you have all said.

I think the stars given are a combination of both so if you get a 3-star potential player in Ball control and stamina, it could mean a 10,8 8,10 9,9 or even a 9,8 8,9 or even a 10,7 or 7,10. An average of 8/9 between the two skills would then combine him to a 3 star overall potential for those 2 skills.

Something along those lines.

He's a small little guide I copied from @Mihairo that I agree with. Maybe crew can give us an insight on how accurate it is:
4 stars - 18-20 balls
3 stars - 15-17 balls
2 stars - 12-14 balls
1 star - 8-11 balls

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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scruttino wrote:
I've had a 1 star youth training speed player achieve 100% training efficiency at a YTC.

So clearly the player isn't a slow trainer. Most of the youth training speed estimates where correct but some are clearly not.


How many balls/pucks does he have noi and at what age?
You know that some skills train faster than others.
Also, for e.g. it's easy to train a 1-2 skill in TC with 100% efficiency, while a 4-5 skill could drop to 50%

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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Another common thread appears to be keepers are identified much less frequently, which is a good thing. As if you were unlucky, under the old system you could get 7-8 keepers out of 23 players

Sv: Youth Potential Tool

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joseluiz_go wrote:
Powdersnow said that some 3 Star players are National Team level and some 4 Star players may become "busts", so it's easier to believe you can't read too much on the stars, they are only telling about the two main skills and nothing beyond that.


True. This player got 4 stars in technique and cross balls. Still he wont be a national player with a maxing in speed with six balls. He got 2 stars as lowest potential in speed and shooting.
Stig-Ove Valström

Age: 25

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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mihairo wrote:
Yes, we should take things as they really are.
I'm waiting for examples like that.
4 stars on secundary skills with 1-2 stars weaknesses on speed/stamina.


Norbert Audo

Age: 25



★★★★ shoot / tackling
★★ speed / keeping

Previously detected Aerial Passing/PI/Passing

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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An example of 4 stars in shooting & 1 star in speed

Dan Dorrell

Age: 23



3 Star youth training speed
4 Star high potential - Set Plays & Shooting
1 Star low potential - Speed & PI

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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Thank you for the examples.
So, the training analysis really works.
People thought that the players will be defined by key strengths. The truth is that they are defined by key weaknesses.
This is exactly what Powdersnow said.
A 4 star player might not be the superstar you'd expect if he doesn't have the right key weaknesses.
This means it will be much harder to train a certain skill and expect millions in return.
The Transfer Market will indeed change for the better.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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[POW]
President
aldebaran wrote:
Is the "set plays" skill supposed to be in the reports? and specially on the "highest potential" one?

I might have misread it (or maybe it was a suggestion from users and not official from CREW), but I thought "set plays" was supposed to stay out of the reports...

We previously stated that Set Pieces would not be included in the report. We decided that this is a bad move, mainly because in the new post-Scout Report environment some users may want to develop players into new types of roles, and free kick/penalty specialists could be one of them. Nothing has changed in the sim or anything like that, but the new scout open up possibilities that maybe weren't there before.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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Thank you for the prompt reply.
You could be right here as well. Maybe we didn't take that into consideration. Free kicks, Corner kicks and penalties could turn into decisive aspects of the game if we have two similar teams.
I can't argue with that.

What I was hoping for was to see the key strengths and weaknesses of all the players, at least U21 players. On long term that's what is going to happen sooner or later. I just hoped that sooner is now.

Other than that, I am completely satisfied with the new training analysis.

Sv: Youth Potential Tool

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[TDF]
President
mihairo wrote:
More like
4 stars strengths = 9-10
3 stars strengths = 8-10
2 stars strengths = 7-9

2 stars weaknesses = 6-7
1 star weaknesses = 4-6


After reading other users’ experiences I can agree on the strengths, but not on the weaknesses. 2 stars are 2 stars, no matter if it’s a strength or a weakness. Although my guess is that the players with 2 stars in their weaknesses are more likely to max in the bottom of the range, and opposite for players with 2 stars in their strengths (top of the range). I have a player with 7 balls (maxed) in a skill with a 1 star weakness.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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manekaster wrote:
After reading other users’ experiences I can agree on the strengths, but not on the weaknesses. 2 stars are 2 stars, no matter if it’s a strength or a weakness. Although my guess is that the players with 2 stars in their weaknesses are more likely to max in the bottom of the range, and opposite for players with 2 stars in their strengths (top of the range). I have a player with 7 balls (maxed) in a skill with a 1 star weakness.


It means that the other key weakness will probably max at 4, maybe 5 the most.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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I am curious.
The 1 star 7 skill appears as a second weakness?

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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mayunga wrote:
I've read what the crew and you have all said.

I think the stars given are a combination of both so if you get a 3-star potential player in Ball control and stamina, it could mean a 10,8 8,10 9,9 or even a 9,8 8,9 or even a 10,7 or 7,10. An average of 8/9 between the two skills would then combine him to a 3 star overall potential for those 2 skills.

Something along those lines.

He's a small little guide I copied from @Mihairo that I agree with. Maybe crew can give us an insight on how accurate it is:
4 stars - 18-20 balls
3 stars - 15-17 balls
2 stars - 12-14 balls
1 star - 8-11 balls


Yes, it was a suggestion.
After further feedback, it was considered not to have strict borders that would flatten the game.
So, it's more like
4 stars - 19-20 balls

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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Sorry, pressed Send by mistake...

Looks more like
4 stars - 19-20 balls
3 stars - 17-19 balls
2 stars - 12-18 balls
1 star - 8-12 balls

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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Errata: 2 stars - 12-17 balls

Sorry again, I am writing from my phone

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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Kari Kangaskorpi

Age: 25


High 4stars speed and setplay
Low 2stars Stamina and ballcontrol maxed at 11 balls

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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Thank you for that.
So we already have 2 examples.
1 star weaknesses 7-4(probably)
2 star weaknesses 6-5

They both are 11 balls.

The funny thing is that we could never come to a conclusion if both should be 1 star, 2 stars or even if 7-4 is not 1 star and 6-5 is not 2 stars.

If we increase the no. from 11 to 12, it means that 7-5 or 6-6 should be 1 star weaknesses and if we decrease it to 10, it means that 5-5 or 6-4 could be 2 stars weaknesses.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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The wording on the new scout report says that, for the stars, it takes into consideration a few of the highest skills and that could mean more than just the 2 skills that are presented as highest and lowest.
It might explain the large range that we see now.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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[FLUSA]
President
One skill I'd remove from the low skill report is keeping, it's a unique skill that is useless for a field player and no one will train a keeper unless he gets keeping as a high skill.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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[YR☆]
President

What would you choose?
He might be 10 both in tackling and keeping, but i believe/guess he might also be 9 in keeping (so quite useless) or 9-10 in tackiling.

Ri: Youth Potential Tool

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in my opinion a keeper must have also much Play Intelligence

Ant: Youth Potential Tool

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I think the high potential takes into account the highest maxing on more than 2 skills (maybe the 4 best), makes the sum of those maxings and allocates (with some overlap for randomness) 2, 3 or 4 stars. Then it picks completely randomly 2 of those best skills to show. So it might show you two skills with maxings at 9 while other skills max at 10 (for a 4 star player).
The same but vice versa for the low potential.

Ant: Youth Potential Tool

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scruttino wrote:
Another common thread appears to be keepers are identified much less frequently, which is a good thing. As if you were unlucky, under the old system you could get 7-8 keepers out of 23 players


So far, looking at both football and hockey (51 youth players total) I don't share this feeling. But there are lots of players with keeping as strength who weren't keepers in the old system and old system keepers who don't have keeping listed as strength.

2 star players with keeping as strength seem to be the no-brainers for exchanging. So that's an improvement on time wasting.

Ce: Youth Potential Tool

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Guys (and Gals), I have 1 good and 1 bad news.

Bad News: The Stars do NOT take into account the average of 2 skills (either highest or lowest).

Good News: Now we have crazy amount of possibilities to ponder on (brainstorm about).

What comes to my mind:

Possibility 1: Stars take average of 3 or 4 skills (either lowest or highest) but display the highest or lowest 2.

Possibility 2: Stars take BOTH the average and the max-min into account. That's why 4-7 is 1 star while 5-6 is 2 stars.

Discuss :)

Ant: Youth Potential Tool

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[•ZONE•]
President
engerek01 wrote:
Guys (and Gals), I have 1 good and 1 bad news.

Bad News: The Stars do NOT take into account the average of 2 skills (either highest or lowest)


Do you have any proof to back your statement?

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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darkline wrote:
One skill I'd remove from the low skill report is keeping, it's a unique skill that is useless for a field player and no one will train a keeper unless he gets keeping as a high skill.



Yeah, but if you know that the player will probably max at 6 keep, it means that all the other skill will also probably be at +7.
engerek01 wrote:
Guys (and Gals), I have 1 good and 1 bad news.

Bad News: The Stars do NOT take into account the average of 2 skills (either highest or lowest).

Good News: Now we have crazy amount of possibilities to ponder on (brainstorm about).

What comes to my mind:

Possibility 1: Stars take average of 3 or 4 skills (either lowest or highest) but display the highest or lowest 2.

Possibility 2: Stars take BOTH the average and the max-min into account. That's why 4-7 is 1 star while 5-6 is 2 stars.

Discuss :)


First of all, the highest means The Highest and the lowest means The Lowest.
It means no other skill will be above the highest and no other skill will be below the lowest.
There is, indeed, a big chance that a third skill will match the second and there might be a third weakness to match the best weakness.
It's simple grammar and no calculus necessary.

However, I will try to answer your last question.
Yes, I do believe as well there is more than meets the eye the way strengths and weaknesses are displayed.
Let's take two examples.
We know for a fact that 4 stars strengths could be 10 9, while 3 stars strength could also be 10 9.
The difference between them might be explained in the third strength. As in
4 stars strengths 10 9 could turn into 10 9 9 strengths.
3 stars strengths 10 9 could turn into 10 9 8 strengths.

Now let's take our two 1 star weaknesses.
2 stars weaknesses 5 6 could turn into 5 6 8 weaknesses.
1 star weaknesses 4 7 could turn into 4 7 7 weaknesses.

This is the first thing that comes to mind.

Ce: Youth Potential Tool

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devos wrote:
Do you have any proof to back your statement?


4 Star can max at 9
3 Star can be 10-9
2 Star can reach 9
2 Star can be 8-9
2 Star can max at 5-6

@mihairo, I wasn't asking a question and you haven't said anything that I hadn't already stated yesterday. But thank you for your input.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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engerek01 wrote:
4 Star can max at 9
3 Star can be 10-9
2 Star can reach 9
2 Star can be 8-9
2 Star can max at 5-6

@mihairo, I wasn't asking a question and you haven't said anything that I hadn't already stated yesterday. But thank you for your input.


I'm just trying to understand and explain, like you.
I think that sums it right.
There could be a big difference between 2 star strength and 2 star weakness, from 8 to 6, and exceptionally even 9 / 5.
So, it seems to be a logic here.
I think I can draw conclusions here.
The training analysis is much more trustworthy than YTC skills.
Thank you all for reading and replying to my posts.
I wish you all the best.
Have fun and good luck!

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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[FLUSA]
President
mihairo wrote:
Yeah, but if you know that the player will probably max at 6 keep, it means that all the other skill will also probably be at +7.


Not necessarily and let's say keeping and stamina both are 2 stars, I rather the scout tell me the weakness of the player is stamina and not keeping, if I get keeping I might get the player anyway, if it tells me stamina or any other relevant skill I will not, easy as that... telling you a player has low keeping is giving irrelevant information at the cost of not telling you relevant information.

Ant: Youth Potential Tool

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darkline wrote:
Not necessarily and let's say keeping and stamina both are 2 stars, I rather the scout tell me the weakness of the player is stamina and not keeping, if I get keeping I might get the player anyway, if it tells me stamina or any other relevant skill I will not, easy as that... telling you a player has low keeping is giving irrelevant information at the cost of not telling you relevant information.


If your main concern is losing time by developing youth, isn't the new system an improvement?
The old system didn't give any clue on the potential, but it did give a positional rating.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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[FLUSA]
President
reteip wrote:
If your main concern is losing time by developing youth, isn't the new system an improvement?
The old system didn't give any clue on the potential, but it did give a positional rating.


I'm just saying that is pointless to tell you a player has low keeping because it's a skill that field players don't use, you won't train a player as a keeper unless the scout tells you he has good potential as a GK and if you're training a field player is pointless to know he's not good as a keeper.

Ant: Youth Potential Tool

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[•ZONE•]
President
engerek01 wrote:
4 Star can max at 9
3 Star can be 10-9
2 Star can reach 9
2 Star can be 8-9
2 Star can max at 5-6

@mihairo, I wasn't asking a question and you haven't said anything that I hadn't already stated yesterday. But thank you for your input.


That proves that the star ratings might overlap and/or that the scout might be wrong sometimes. Doesn't necessarily mean that the star rating involves more than 2 skills. (from my point of view)

I am curious about your 2 star with 8 and 9. Where did you see that? Pics or it didn't happen 😋

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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[FLUSA]
President
devos wrote:
I am curious about your 2 star with 8 and 9. Where did you see that? Pics or it didn't happen 😋


You mean like this?



Re: Youth Potential Tool

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[TM]
President
devos wrote:

I am curious about your 2 star with 8 and 9. Where did you see that? Pics or it didn't happen 😋


darkline wrote:
You mean like this?




I have a good example, Speed&stamina unmaxed. In few days he will gain the 8th ball on shooting wich should be the last one of this skill.
Toader Obreja

Age: 25


[url=https://imgbb.com/][/url]

Odp: Youth Potential Tool

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This is getting ridiculous...

It looks like stars are based on even more skills than 3 or just something completely different. Even if it is based on 4 skills 9+8+8+5 is still not bad average (7.5) for 2 stars. I am confused now.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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[FLUSA]
President
Wonder if your player is bugged, it just seems too inconsistent to have 2 stars on a player that at least will reach 9 balls on one skill and 8 balls on 2 skills....

Ce: Youth Potential Tool

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Can we have any explanation from crew to make this system clear? Otherwise a huge question will be still exist.

Ri: Youth Potential Tool

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[FALCO]
President
for the old scout: Forward (and play well)


for the new scout: Galkeeper???😲


where's the truth ?🤔?

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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It is possible to reach shoot 7/8, keep 9/10. You are also certain he will reach control 8/9
The problem is he will max at PI 5/6, stamina 5/6.
If he will become keeper 10, he will be very low on PI stammina.
I would train him on speed stamina first, knowing he will be very good on control.
If he will reach 9 7 9/10 on these skills, I would try shooting.
There are two options.
Train him for keeping 10, you can be lucky or end up with keeping 9.
Train him speed, stamina, control, you can end up with speed 8/9 stamina 7 control 9/10 or end up with speed 8 stamina 6 control 9.

Decisions, decisions...

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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Monte Arden

Age: 25



Highest Potential (3 stars)
Heading
Shooting

Lowest Potential (2 stars)
Play Intelligence
Stamina

So, this player is training stamina and will get at least to 7. It is safe to say that, other than for Play Intelligence, he should get at least 7 in all the other skills?

I got some mixed messages regarding the lowest/highest potential skill. Reading the news, seems to be their highest/lowest attribute, so this player will guarantee at least 7 balls in everything, but Play Intelligence. However I saw some managers talking about randomness when picking highest and lowest, which I thought would only happen when a player has, let's say 5 skills with the same highest/lowest potential.

If that is the case, training one of the lowest skills, assuming the skill is necessary (like stamina for this player) would provide us with a key information to plan accordingly.

Beantwortet: Youth Potential Tool

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darkline wrote:
I'm just saying that is pointless to tell you a player has low keeping because it's a skill that field players don't use, you won't train a player as a keeper unless the scout tells you he has good potential as a GK and if you're training a field player is pointless to know he's not good as a keeper.


That's not what I think. If a player has goalkeeping and standards as weak skills, that's a very good indicator. The chances that important skills are very bad decrease immensely with this information.

Beantwortet: Youth Potential Tool

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dgomescarvalho wrote:
Monte Arden

Age: 25



Highest Potential (3 stars)
Heading
Shooting

Lowest Potential (2 stars)
Play Intelligence
Stamina

So, this player is training stamina and will get at least to 7. It is safe to say that, other than for Play Intelligence, he should get at least 7 in all the other skills?

I got some mixed messages regarding the lowest/highest potential skill. Reading the news, seems to be their highest/lowest attribute, so this player will guarantee at least 7 balls in everything, but Play Intelligence. However I saw some managers talking about randomness when picking highest and lowest, which I thought would only happen when a player has, let's say 5 skills with the same highest/lowest potential.

If that is the case, training one of the lowest skills, assuming the skill is necessary (like stamina for this player) would provide us with a key information to plan accordingly.


mayunga wrote:
I've read what the crew and you have all said.

I think the stars given are a combination of both so if you get a 3-star potential player in Ball control and stamina, it could mean a 10,8 8,10 9,9 or even a 9,8 8,9 or even a 10,7 or 7,10. An average of 8/9 between the two skills would then combine him to a 3 star overall potential for those 2 skills.

Something along those lines.

He's a small little guide I copied from @Mihairo that I agree with. Maybe crew can give us an insight on how accurate it is:
4 stars - 18-20 balls
3 stars - 15-17 balls
2 stars - 12-14 balls
1 star - 8-11 balls


7 + 5 = 12

You forgot to calculate the average.

What is certain based on this theory is that you are not under 5 balls in the other skills. But the range is between 5 and 7 balls.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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[FLUSA]
President
samooo wrote:
That's not what I think. If a player has goalkeeping and standards as weak skills, that's a very good indicator. The chances that important skills are very bad decrease immensely with this information.


Not really... this are my 18 y/olds with low keeping:

This guy maxed at 6 stamina but instead of low stamina, the scout said low keeping:



This other guy maxed at 6 speed / 7 stamina but again, the scout said 2 balls low keeping where I honestly rather know he had low speed.



Then this guy maxed at 6 speed, but again I was informed he had low keeping



Then this guy, maxed at 6 speed, surely it would be more useful to know that instead that he's not going to be the next Buffon



And I have another 18 y/old that I also know he won't be a goalkeeper and fingers crossed has not maxed yet but he's still training his 7th speed ball.

Maybe I'm unlucky, but my scouts really like to tell me the strikers or defenders I'm training are useless as keepers.
Edited: 14-06-2019 01:44
Total edits: 1

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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these scouts are retarded, they have to rethink this. I don't think there is a formula that makes sense.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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[FLUSA]
President
I forgot another "low keeper" that maxed at 5 stamina, but in all honestly at least the scout gave me stamina as one of his low skills.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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[FLUSA]
President
Come to think of... it's a bit far fetched and wouldn't make any sense, but it seems all the players I have that give me "low keeping" max early on speed or stamina (or both)

Might be a coincidence as it wouldn't make any sense but still weird....

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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Big fan of this feature, nice little puzzle.

I have 7x 4 star highest skill youths currently which from the thread I’m inclined to think is pretty fortunate..

However, given one youth is already ‘bust’ on 4 star stamina I think the best unlock with this feature is to be able to target the low value maxings early if in SP,ST or BC.

One question for crew though - my 4 star highest skill youths are predominantly 2nd and 3rd years, can you confirm existing training/ ball allocations don’t skew this calculation? I think everyone would like to avoid any misunderstanding before these players are phased out of YTC in the next couple of seasons. Thanks

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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I like the new feature as I like puzzles + the community seems to be alive again :)

I don't think any of the theories here are accurate and I actually think we will only see things clear when players are older and more developed. I don't believe that the Crew would create a system wherin once you get it, you can fully predict a player in 4 skills.

I have some ideas regarding how the system would work, but have just 1 question I hope the crew will answer: Is the scout always right? Or is there a sort of random factor? Is it for example possible that a 3 star player is rated as a 4 star player by the scout?

This would overcomplicate things, but would be nice to know that because with possible mistakes, we should not take outliers into account.

Re: Youth Potential Tool

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drieet wrote:
I like the new feature as I like puzzles + the community seems to be alive again :)

I don't think any of the theories here are accurate and I actually think we will only see things clear when players are older and more developed. I don't believe that the Crew would create a system wherin once you get it, you can fully predict a player in 4 skills.

I have some ideas regarding how the system would work, but have just 1 question I hope the crew will answer: Is the scout always right? Or is there a sort of random factor? Is it for example possible that a 3 star player is rated as a 4 star player by the scout?

This would overcomplicate things, but would be nice to know that because with possible mistakes, we should not take outliers into account.


Great question!

Crew, you've obvisouly awakened the whole MZ family, looking at the frequency of posts.

I am a BIG supporter of this because it feels more like a football manager game. Great job
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