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Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 07-02-2019 16:38

[BFTF]

We have revamped the suggested Youth Potential Analysis feature after taking onboard feedback from the first thread (which you can find here: https://www.managerzone.com/?p=forum&sub=topic&topic_id=12465076&forum_id=10&sport=soccer) Some quick comments before going into the details: [li] After digesting the feedback, the new suggestion is less transparent and the randomization factor has been amped up. [li] We have discarded the idea of defining "roles". People who play MZ all have different ideas about what constitutes a role, and that is as it should be. Also, as the game goes through transitions, the skills that make up a role could change and the feature would then be outdated. [li] We do not see the need for time-limitations of various kinds (for instance cooldown between uses, or having to wait while the Analyst prepares his report). Nor do we want to tie it to the coach system. Things like that only serve to add extra layers of complexity to a game which is already very complex. [/li] [b]Version 2[/b] [img]https://www.managerzone.com/dynimg/pic.php?type=news&id=analystv2[/img] The Analyst will do his best to predict the players strongest and weakest points, focusing on specific abilities rather than roles. Instead of using a five-star rating we brought it down to three. Under strengths, the Analyst will lift out three of the players strongest potential abilities. The Analyst will give rate how much potential the player has in these three skills as a whole. The weakness factor will work in a slightly different way. Rather than simply picking the weakest skill, the Analyst will pick a [b]key[/b] skill where the player shows poor potential. A three star player will always be very good and a one star player usually pretty bad. However, the Analyst is a human, and therefore imperfect. The chances of achieving a certain star-rating will be based on sliding scales of likelihood (exact details will not be disclosed to the community). The feature will be either very cheap (in Team money) or completely free to use. We believe that a high cost is not the right way to balance the feature. It would be visible in the transfer market and would follow the player to his new club. The feature will let you find a path for your players development since it highlights the players personal strengths and a key weakness. It will also give you a decent answer to the question "could this be a useful player" without ruining the fun of following his progress. There is plenty of mystery still to be unveiled, but you will quickly be able to discard players that don't have any real talents. The feature is also intuitive: new users will not need to study the manual to use it, the information is easy to interpret. Thoughts? :)We have revamped the suggested Youth Potential Analysis feature after taking onboard feedback from the first thread (which you can find here: https://www.managerzone.com/?p=forum&sub=topic&topic_id=12465076&forum_id=10&sport=soccer)

Some quick comments before going into the details:

After digesting the feedback, the new suggestion is less transparent and the randomization factor has been amped up.

We have discarded the idea of defining "roles". People who play MZ all have different ideas about what constitutes a role, and that is as it should be. Also, as the game goes through transitions, the skills that make up a role could change and the feature would then be outdated.

We do not see the need for time-limitations of various kinds (for instance cooldown between uses, or having to wait while the Analyst prepares his report). Nor do we want to tie it to the coach system. Things like that only serve to add extra layers of complexity to a game which is already very complex.

Version 2


The Analyst will do his best to predict the players strongest and weakest points, focusing on specific abilities rather than roles. Instead of using a five-star rating we brought it down to three.

Under strengths, the Analyst will lift out three of the players strongest potential abilities. The Analyst will give rate how much potential the player has in these three skills as a whole.

The weakness factor will work in a slightly different way. Rather than simply picking the weakest skill, the Analyst will pick a key skill where the player shows poor potential.

A three star player will always be very good and a one star player usually pretty bad. However, the Analyst is a human, and therefore imperfect. The chances of achieving a certain star-rating will be based on sliding scales of likelihood (exact details will not be disclosed to the community).

The feature will be either very cheap (in Team money) or completely free to use. We believe that a high cost is not the right way to balance the feature.

It would be visible in the transfer market and would follow the player to his new club.

The feature will let you find a path for your players development since it highlights the players personal strengths and a key weakness. It will also give you a decent answer to the question "could this be a useful player" without ruining the fun of following his progress. There is plenty of mystery still to be unveiled, but you will quickly be able to discard players that don't have any real talents. The feature is also intuitive: new users will not need to study the manual to use it, the information is easy to interpret.


Thoughts? :)

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Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 13-02-2019 09:25

[BFTF]

I will digest all this and create a revised suggestion. I may open up a new thread for further discussion. But keep talking, I am reading it all even if I'm not replying to all posts. :)

zargan123 wrote:

So what is going to be happen after all words. What is the updated about scouting and analysing system?

I will digest all this and create a revised suggestion. I may open up a new thread for further discussion.

But keep talking, I am reading it all even if I'm not replying to all posts. :)

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By mihairo - 13-02-2019 11:03

[-FO-]

@lebanon21 I like your system. I like NFL and NHL more than soccer. I would watch any NFL game instead of an UCL game any time. Unfortunately, draft pick system with no transfers involved whatsoever is the best for a no promotion/relegation championship. So we can't use it in soccer. Bill Belichick is my all time favourite manager and Tom Brady is my all time favourite player. He was no. 199 draft pick in a system that works individually from the club scouting management. So the system works for better scouting, helping the clubs, but even so you, as manager, you can find gems on your own. This is what I call actual management skill. Unfortunately, people who posted here showed that 99,99% of the managers are not like me, so they will probably not like it. It is imposibile to have a different draft system on each league level, but I thought about it and it's not necessarily a bad thing. This means the best youth would go to the Top League teams, each with a draft pick. This way we are certain that the best youths are taken care of. Also, the last place, which is the 12th, can pick first and know that he will have a real gem joining the club. That should motivate him IMO. The same is for all the leagues, even though they would know that their future youths will probably not be supertars, but they will have certain quality, above their current team anyway. So, a system that selects quality by itself is not exactlty a bad thing, it should be a good thing. 99,99% people say we should encourage good management skill outside the system, when I say the system should help good management and only the best managers should think outside the box.@lebanon21

I like your system.
I like NFL and NHL more than soccer.
I would watch any NFL game instead of an UCL game any time.
Unfortunately, draft pick system with no transfers involved whatsoever is the best for a no promotion/relegation championship. So we can't use it in soccer.
Bill Belichick is my all time favourite manager and Tom Brady is my all time favourite player. He was no. 199 draft pick in a system that works individually from the club scouting management.
So the system works for better scouting, helping the clubs, but even so you, as manager, you can find gems on your own. This is what I call actual management skill.
Unfortunately, people who posted here showed that 99,99% of the managers are not like me, so they will probably not like it.
It is imposibile to have a different draft system on each league level, but I thought about it and it's not necessarily a bad thing.
This means the best youth would go to the Top League teams, each with a draft pick.
This way we are certain that the best youths are taken care of.
Also, the last place, which is the 12th, can pick first and know that he will have a real gem joining the club. That should motivate him IMO.

The same is for all the leagues, even though they would know that their future youths will probably not be supertars, but they will have certain quality, above their current team anyway.

So, a system that selects quality by itself is not exactlty a bad thing, it should be a good thing.

99,99% people say we should encourage good management skill outside the system, when I say the system should help good management and only the best managers should think outside the box.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 13-02-2019 11:24

[BFTF]

@lebanon21. I like your thinking and what you have suggested there does sound like a lot of fun. You should be a game designer! :) Though at the same time, your feature looks like it belongs in another game. We are all for evolving MZ, but we have to do so without changing it at the core, by adding to (or tweaking) what we already have, so we don't disappoint our loyal user base. I think your suggestions stray way too far from MZ's "home turf". Or to put it in another way: we need to make MZ [b]better[/b], not [b]different[/b].@lebanon21. I like your thinking and what you have suggested there does sound like a lot of fun. You should be a game designer! :) Though at the same time, your feature looks like it belongs in another game. We are all for evolving MZ, but we have to do so without changing it at the core, by adding to (or tweaking) what we already have, so we don't disappoint our loyal user base. I think your suggestions stray way too far from MZ's "home turf". Or to put it in another way: we need to make MZ better, not different.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By magurius - 13-02-2019 12:34

Ridiculous considération. The game need, [b]every day with most emergency[/b], a new and correct simulator, [b]BEFORE[/b] all other considérations.Ridiculous considération.

The game need, every day with most emergency, a new and correct simulator, BEFORE all other considérations.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By darkline - 13-02-2019 16:29

[FLUSA]
President

The youth potential analysis tool is a nice addition but I also think we need a new SIM, even different is better just because is different, after 10 years of using this same SIM or minimum modifications of it, all the tactics and variations of tactics and counter tactics that could have been discovered has been discovered, at first it was cool and there was stuff to find, tactics to test, I remember for the first 3/4 years everyone thought short passing was the best tactic until a guy won the Argentinian top division with a weak team and a wings tactic, then new variations of wings tactics came, people explored but now there's really no rock left unturned and nothing left to discover, which is really an issue if you've been playing this game long enough.The youth potential analysis tool is a nice addition but I also think we need a new SIM, even different is better just because is different, after 10 years of using this same SIM or minimum modifications of it, all the tactics and variations of tactics and counter tactics that could have been discovered has been discovered, at first it was cool and there was stuff to find, tactics to test, I remember for the first 3/4 years everyone thought short passing was the best tactic until a guy won the Argentinian top division with a weak team and a wings tactic, then new variations of wings tactics came, people explored but now there's really no rock left unturned and nothing left to discover, which is really an issue if you've been playing this game long enough.

Edited: 13-02-2019 16:30
Total edits: 1

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By maldini42 (NCA) - 13-02-2019 18:51

+1 I've been playing this game for nearly 12 years. More than eveything, we need a new sim. And correct me if I'm wrong, but graphics of the 3d games are also still the same.. All of this was perfectly good in 2007, and it was also the reason I choose MZ instead of another football game, but now, you can't stay with these outdated tools and wonder why the number of player is going down. I play quite seriously in U23 and U21, but I don't care about this new scouting system. Still, good to see that some changes are trying to be made, but it's just my opinion, the focus is not on the rights elements.

magurius wrote:

Ridiculous considération.

The game need, every day with most emergency, a new and correct simulator, BEFORE all other considérations.

+1

I've been playing this game for nearly 12 years. More than eveything, we need a new sim. And correct me if I'm wrong, but graphics of the 3d games are also still the same.. All of this was perfectly good in 2007, and it was also the reason I choose MZ instead of another football game, but now, you can't stay with these outdated tools and wonder why the number of player is going down.
I play quite seriously in U23 and U21, but I don't care about this new scouting system.
Still, good to see that some changes are trying to be made, but it's just my opinion, the focus is not on the rights elements.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By lebanon21 - 13-02-2019 18:56

Thanks :) Fun fact - I am a game designer / owner. Just different genre of games - online mafia RPG. I decided to re-post my idea because changing( or adding) Analysis/Scouting tool is one thing, but the whole youth system is quite random and based purely on luck. Just to add a bit more explanation to my Draft system: every league / division would have their own, indivudual group of players for the draft. It means that at the coding level, we can ensure a fair, equal chance of distribution of top talents, all the way down to the really trashy players. Users don't have to know the odds or numbers of how many great players will be created in each draft. It does introduce more consistency and is less luck-dependent than current system, where every team basically has their own group of players available for Youth Exchange and youth joining at the start of a new season. I do think that draft system would make the game better, even if it makes it different, but truthfully, how much "different"? It's only down to how the youth players are selected. Instead of total randomization, we (users) would have an opportunity to make some decisions and choices. All you have to do is scrap Youth Exchange tool and ensure all youths arrive at the beginning of new season, for all teams. Right now, as far as I remember, new teams can order youth faster, and you can order Academy upgrade/downgrade in the middle of the season? It doesn't seem like a huge loss, if those options are removed. In terms of the user experience - how much more fun it is, to have something to do at the end of the season, when League games are over and you have those few days time to look at the new draft prospects and setting your draft picks? It's a small "game within the game". Run a poll among "your loyal base" and see what they have to say, that's probably the most honest approach to see what the general feedback would be for this change. If you compare this with a limited (X new players every week available) Youth Exchange tool, which is quite inaccurate - in hockey I have a youth whose report showed Shooting, Stamina, PuckCntrl as the "high potential". He recently finished his 10th@ in Power and he is maxed at 6@ in shooting... It's a lottery with those high potential skills. If it was at least showing the 3 skills which ARE REALLY the highest training potential...

powdersnow wrote:

@lebanon21. I like your thinking and what you have suggested there does sound like a lot of fun. You should be a game designer! :) Though at the same time, your feature looks like it belongs in another game. We are all for evolving MZ, but we have to do so without changing it at the core, by adding to (or tweaking) what we already have, so we don't disappoint our loyal user base. I think your suggestions stray way too far from MZ's "home turf". Or to put it in another way: we need to make MZ better, not different.

Thanks :)
Fun fact - I am a game designer / owner. Just different genre of games - online mafia RPG.

I decided to re-post my idea because changing( or adding) Analysis/Scouting tool is one thing, but the whole youth system is quite random and based purely on luck.

Just to add a bit more explanation to my Draft system:
every league / division would have their own, indivudual group of players for the draft.
It means that at the coding level, we can ensure a fair, equal chance of distribution of top talents, all the way down to the really trashy players.
Users don't have to know the odds or numbers of how many great players will be created in each draft.

It does introduce more consistency and is less luck-dependent than current system, where every team basically has their own group of players available for Youth Exchange and youth joining at the start of a new season.

I do think that draft system would make the game better, even if it makes it different, but truthfully, how much "different"? It's only down to how the youth players are selected. Instead of total randomization, we (users) would have an opportunity to make some decisions and choices.
All you have to do is scrap Youth Exchange tool and ensure all youths arrive at the beginning of new season, for all teams. Right now, as far as I remember, new teams can order youth faster, and you can order Academy upgrade/downgrade in the middle of the season? It doesn't seem like a huge loss, if those options are removed.

In terms of the user experience - how much more fun it is, to have something to do at the end of the season, when League games are over and you have those few days time to look at the new draft prospects and setting your draft picks? It's a small "game within the game".
Run a poll among "your loyal base" and see what they have to say, that's probably the most honest approach to see what the general feedback would be for this change.

If you compare this with a limited (X new players every week available) Youth Exchange tool, which is quite inaccurate - in hockey I have a youth whose report showed Shooting, Stamina, PuckCntrl as the "high potential".
He recently finished his 10th@ in Power and he is maxed at 6@ in shooting...

It's a lottery with those high potential skills. If it was at least showing the 3 skills which ARE REALLY the highest training potential...

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By hypnosis - 13-02-2019 19:13

[ᴀғʀɪᴄᴀ]

It's a great ideaIt's a great idea

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By mihairo - 13-02-2019 19:25

[-FO-]

The youth academy system needs a lot of improvement. În RL best youths are still picked by the strong teams. Imagine a future superstar choosing a weak club rather than a strong one. This never happens. So IMO we should link the Youth Academy to our club performances somehow. This system that allows users to hibernate by growing youths for profit is very bad for the game. And, yes, youth scouting should keep us busy when the season is over. Maybe not allowing newbies to open the Youth Academy until the end of the season is not exactly a bad thing. They will have a season (or what's left of it) to understand the game and just enjoy it. Have better time to prepare for youth scouting. I see people saying that this feature is not urgent. The skills shown in scout report or YTC are not based on strength, but only on training speed. So, in the case of your hockey player, he was a fast trainee on shooting, control and Stamina. I remember having a great prospect, with lots of nines. His scout report showed me PI as one of the 3 suggested skills. We all know that PI traines the slowest of all the skills, so indeed he got to PI very fast, but I chose to train other skills to see his full potential until the age of 20. Like I said, he had many important skills at 9. Then I trained him at PI 4. Guess what? He maxed at 4. I was forced to sell him for something like 800k. He was a great player for U21 level and I would have probably kept him for my senior team with PI 5 or 6. So if we had the current feature, I could have trained him differently.

lebanon21 wrote:

Thanks :)
Fun fact - I am a game designer / owner. Just different genre of games - online mafia RPG.

I decided to re-post my idea because changing( or adding) Analysis/Scouting tool is one thing, but the whole youth system is quite random and based purely on luck.

Just to add a bit more explanation to my Draft system:
every league / division would have their own, indivudual group of players for the draft.
It means that at the coding level, we can ensure a fair, equal chance of distribution of top talents, all the way down to the really trashy players.
Users don't have to know the odds or numbers of how many great players will be created in each draft.

It does introduce more consistency and is less luck-dependent than current system, where every team basically has their own group of players available for Youth Exchange and youth joining at the start of a new season.

I do think that draft system would make the game better, even if it makes it different, but truthfully, how much "different"? It's only down to how the youth players are selected. Instead of total randomization, we (users) would have an opportunity to make some decisions and choices.
All you have to do is scrap Youth Exchange tool and ensure all youths arrive at the beginning of new season, for all teams. Right now, as far as I remember, new teams can order youth faster, and you can order Academy upgrade/downgrade in the middle of the season? It doesn't seem like a huge loss, if those options are removed.

In terms of the user experience - how much more fun it is, to have something to do at the end of the season, when League games are over and you have those few days time to look at the new draft prospects and setting your draft picks? It's a small "game within the game".
Run a poll among "your loyal base" and see what they have to say, that's probably the most honest approach to see what the general feedback would be for this change.

If you compare this with a limited (X new players every week available) Youth Exchange tool, which is quite inaccurate - in hockey I have a youth whose report showed Shooting, Stamina, PuckCntrl as the "high potential".
He recently finished his 10th@ in Power and he is maxed at 6@ in shooting...

It's a lottery with those high potential skills. If it was at least showing the 3 skills which ARE REALLY the highest training potential...

The youth academy system needs a lot of improvement.
În RL best youths are still picked by the strong teams.
Imagine a future superstar choosing a weak club rather than a strong one. This never happens.
So IMO we should link the Youth Academy to our club performances somehow.
This system that allows users to hibernate by growing youths for profit is very bad for the game.
And, yes, youth scouting should keep us busy when the season is over.
Maybe not allowing newbies to open the Youth Academy until the end of the season is not exactly a bad thing. They will have a season (or what's left of it) to understand the game and just enjoy it.
Have better time to prepare for youth scouting.

I see people saying that this feature is not urgent. The skills shown in scout report or YTC are not based on strength, but only on training speed.
So, in the case of your hockey player, he was a fast trainee on shooting, control and Stamina.
I remember having a great prospect, with lots of nines. His scout report showed me PI as one of the 3 suggested skills. We all know that PI traines the slowest of all the skills, so indeed he got to PI very fast, but I chose to train other skills to see his full potential until the age of 20. Like I said, he had many important skills at 9.
Then I trained him at PI 4. Guess what? He maxed at 4. I was forced to sell him for something like 800k. He was a great player for U21 level and I would have probably kept him for my senior team with PI 5 or 6.
So if we had the current feature, I could have trained him differently.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 13-02-2019 22:03

[BFTF]

Hah! I wasn't far off then. :) The Analysis feature will in fact pinpoint your the player's strongest skills. But if there is a tie between skills then the Analyst will have to pick at random (hence why I wrote "three of" the highest skills). The current scout is bad but not totally rubbish. I am considering fusing the two, so that the Analyst will show you the strongest skill but ALSO give you the same info that the old scout would (which essentially, and quite arbitrarily, will attempt to find a "role" for the player, not always to a great degree of success but it does tell you something about the player). [b]@everyone:[/b] I would like to encourage you to please return to the matter at hand, the Analysis feature. Yes there are other things that could be done, about a million other things. But right now we're discussing this one, and we won't get there if we try to discuss lots of things at once. Help me out here. :)

lebanon21 wrote:

Thanks :)
Fun fact - I am a game designer / owner. Just different genre of games - online mafia RPG.

Hah! I wasn't far off then. :) The Analysis feature will in fact pinpoint your the player's strongest skills. But if there is a tie between skills then the Analyst will have to pick at random (hence why I wrote "three of" the highest skills).

The current scout is bad but not totally rubbish. I am considering fusing the two, so that the Analyst will show you the strongest skill but ALSO give you the same info that the old scout would (which essentially, and quite arbitrarily, will attempt to find a "role" for the player, not always to a great degree of success but it does tell you something about the player).


@everyone: I would like to encourage you to please return to the matter at hand, the Analysis feature. Yes there are other things that could be done, about a million other things. But right now we're discussing this one, and we won't get there if we try to discuss lots of things at once. Help me out here. :)

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By mihairo - 14-02-2019 09:11

[-FO-]

One more thing please, I hope this is the last thing. Maybe people don't realise that scouting is very important for all the hockey teams. I know it's a hockey thing, but I post here to make football managers understand and maybe think about opening a hockey club. A hockey club is far more demanding, with 21 top players, a minimum of 21 Uxx players + upto 10 Uxx players in TC and 30 U18 players. Let's make a short calculus. 21 + 21 + 10 + 30 makes 82 players. I know it sounds a lot, but these are the numbers. Even if you don't have U23 players, just U18, it still means 51 players minimum. I don't know if blind scouting is what we want. This means more transfers than we currently have, which are already a lot. Yes, a hockey team has to be more active on the Transfer Market. It you read this and think that scouting for 10 players a day is a lot, ask yourselves how long does it take? 1-2 minutes? The discussion is about 2 issues here: 1. Should we see the training analysis on the TM? 2. If yes, should we pay for it and how much? Now let's make a thing clear. I would prefer to see the training analysis before bidding for a player, even if it means paying for it. Maybe after I pay for the analysis, it's not what I'm looking for.One more thing please, I hope this is the last thing.

Maybe people don't realise that scouting is very important for all the hockey teams. I know it's a hockey thing, but I post here to make football managers understand and maybe think about opening a hockey club.

A hockey club is far more demanding, with 21 top players, a minimum of 21 Uxx players + upto 10 Uxx players in TC and 30 U18 players.

Let's make a short calculus.
21 + 21 + 10 + 30 makes 82 players.
I know it sounds a lot, but these are the numbers.
Even if you don't have U23 players, just U18, it still means 51 players minimum.

I don't know if blind scouting is what we want. This means more transfers than we currently have, which are already a lot.
Yes, a hockey team has to be more active on the Transfer Market.

It you read this and think that scouting for 10 players a day is a lot, ask yourselves how long does it take? 1-2 minutes?

The discussion is about 2 issues here:

1. Should we see the training analysis on the TM?

2. If yes, should we pay for it and how much?
Now let's make a thing clear. I would prefer to see the training analysis before bidding for a player, even if it means paying for it. Maybe after I pay for the analysis, it's not what I'm looking for.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By hypnosis - 14-02-2019 13:40

[ᴀғʀɪᴄᴀ]

Interesting, it's something you'd like to see!

powdersnow wrote:

The current scout is bad but not totally rubbish. I am considering fusing the two, so that the Analyst will show you the strongest skill but ALSO give you the same info that the old scout would (which essentially, and quite arbitrarily, will attempt to find a "role" for the player, not always to a great degree of success but it does tell you something about the player).

Interesting, it's something you'd like to see!

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