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19-02-2019 22:36
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Season 69 · Week 7 · Day 43
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Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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[POW]
President
We have revamped the suggested Youth Potential Analysis feature after taking onboard feedback from the first thread (which you can find here: https://www.managerzone.com/?p=forum&sub=topic&topic_id=12465076&forum_id=10&sport=soccer)

Some quick comments before going into the details:

  • After digesting the feedback, the new suggestion is less transparent and the randomization factor has been amped up.
  • We have discarded the idea of defining "roles". People who play MZ all have different ideas about what constitutes a role, and that is as it should be. Also, as the game goes through transitions, the skills that make up a role could change and the feature would then be outdated.
  • We do not see the need for time-limitations of various kinds (for instance cooldown between uses, or having to wait while the Analyst prepares his report). Nor do we want to tie it to the coach system. Things like that only serve to add extra layers of complexity to a game which is already very complex.


  • Version 2


    The Analyst will do his best to predict the players strongest and weakest points, focusing on specific abilities rather than roles. Instead of using a five-star rating we brought it down to three.

    Under strengths, the Analyst will lift out three of the players strongest potential abilities. The Analyst will give rate how much potential the player has in these three skills as a whole.

    The weakness factor will work in a slightly different way. Rather than simply picking the weakest skill, the Analyst will pick a key skill where the player shows poor potential.

    A three star player will always be very good and a one star player usually pretty bad. However, the Analyst is a human, and therefore imperfect. The chances of achieving a certain star-rating will be based on sliding scales of likelihood (exact details will not be disclosed to the community).

    The feature will be either very cheap (in Team money) or completely free to use. We believe that a high cost is not the right way to balance the feature.

    It would be visible in the transfer market and would follow the player to his new club.

    The feature will let you find a path for your players development since it highlights the players personal strengths and a key weakness. It will also give you a decent answer to the question "could this be a useful player" without ruining the fun of following his progress. There is plenty of mystery still to be unveiled, but you will quickly be able to discard players that don't have any real talents. The feature is also intuitive: new users will not need to study the manual to use it, the information is easy to interpret.


    Thoughts? :)
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    Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    Mihairo, I don't know if you are one of those managers always trading players to make money, but if you are monitoring 1000 players every season, probably you need to review your playing style. I am not saying that you are not suppose to do that, I am just saying that is not what MZ is about. After all it's called ManagerZone, not TradingZone. So, after all, if you will have to stop doing something because of its new cost, probably that's good for you as well.
    I am curious: out of those 1000 players, how many of them are you buying (in % rate)?

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    [FLUSA]
    President
    goalsaurus wrote:
    Mihairo, I don't know if you are one of those managers always trading players to make money, but if you are monitoring 1000 players every season, probably you need to review your playing style. I am not saying that you are not suppose to do that, I am just saying that is not what MZ is about. After all it's called ManagerZone, not TradingZone. So, after all, if you will have to stop doing something because of its new cost, probably that's good for you as well.
    I am curious: out of those 1000 players, how many of them are you buying (in % rate)?


    Regardless, I don't think the tool should be used to scout the market, like I said, use it for it's original purpose which is scouting your own youths, then when a player is placed on the market, if the manager that trained him got a potential report it's displayed for free on the market and if he never got one, the buyer can have the possibility of getting one as soon as he gets to his new club.

    Ce: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    [55]
    President
    darkline wrote:
    Regardless, I don't think the tool should be used to scout the market, like I said, use it for it's original purpose which is scouting your own youths, then when a player is placed on the market, if the manager that trained him got a potential report it's displayed for free on the market and if he never got one, the buyer can have the possibility of getting one as soon as he gets to his new club.


    absolutely

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    [MCFC]
    President
    I think I agree with Mihairo here, the analysis tool should be free to use without any cost involved. Most of us here only thinking in the short term without considering the consequences in the long run. Anything higher than 2k to use this tool will just ruin the game especially for the new manager who did not develop any managerial skill nor the basic understanding of this game yet. Don't make this game becomes more complex than it's already is, please.

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    [POW]
    President
    darkline wrote:
    Why don't we just go back to when the youth potential analysis was just for youths from your own academy for training purposes?


    Yeah starting to feel like we are opening the pandoras box with that one :) But it's always good to test ideas in theory.

    Analysing players of all ages from your own team seems fine. But not players from other teams. You would be able to see an analysis for a player before you purchase him, but ONLY if the selling manager has paid for an analysis. That way, a selling manager may want to analyse a player prior to adding him to the market, because it could increase the value of the player. What do you think of that?

    @mihairo. Please calm down a little. We are still talking and thinking about this. A "do it my way or I am leaving"-attitude is very discouraging. If everyone had that attitude we would never be able to release/change anything. I love your enthusiasm but please keep an open mind. :)

    maria171 wrote:
    I think I agree with Mihairo here, the analysis tool should be free to use without any cost involved. Most of us here only thinking in the short term without considering the consequences in the long run. Anything higher than 2k to use this tool will just ruin the game especially for the new manager who did not develop any managerial skill nor the basic understanding of this game yet. Don't make this game becomes more complex than it's already is, please.


    Cheap, but not free is what I am leaning towards. I like that you as a manager could save a few bucks by avoiding some analyses. But at the same time you should be able to analyse all youth exchanges during a season without it digging a deep hole in your budget.

    5k?
    Edited: 11-02-2019 12:46
    Total edits: 1

    Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    You would be able to see an analysis for a player before you purchase him, but ONLY if the selling manager has paid for an analysis. That way, a selling manager may want to analyse a player prior to adding him to the market, because it could increase the value of the player. What do you think of that?
    Maybe we could let the selling manager sell the analysis too. If I want to buy a player, I could be interested in buying the scout report first and than see if I want to buy the player.

    5k?
    My suggestion is to link the cost to the budget itself, after all, if the analyst is working as a freelance, without a proper salary, he is going to ask more to richer clubs and less to the poor ones ;)
    For some people 5k is nothing, for others is something.

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    [FLUSA]
    President
    goalsaurus wrote:
    5k?
    My suggestion is to link the cost to the budget itself, after all, if the analyst is working as a freelance, without a proper salary, he is going to ask more to richer clubs and less to the poor ones ;)
    For some people 5k is nothing, for others is something.


    That's a bad idea, it would mean that basically because you're a good manager that keep healthy finances, you get punished and you have to pay more... also, you could buy a lot of players to get your balance very low, get all your reports for nothing and then sell the players.

    Why over complicate things? It has to be easy and straightforward, no need to overthink it... 5K for a report of a youth is fine, you would be able to scout 20 exchanges for $100K, that won't break anyone's finances.

    And for players on the market, a good solution would be that you can order a scout report and if you win the player, the $5K are added to the final value of the transaction and if you don't win it, then it's free.

    Another solution would be to hide those reports on the market to add a bit of mystery to the transfer market and you can order the report when the player arrives at the club, that way you might still find cheap surprises on the market.... I'd personally prefer this option.
    Edited: 11-02-2019 13:56
    Total edits: 1

    Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    Why don't make a report more expensive if the youth you're scouting as a mega potential, and make it cheap if the player hasn't a great future?
    Don't know if that's a great idea, it just came past my mind :-)

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    goalsaurus wrote:
    Mihairo, I don't know if you are one of those managers always trading players to make money, but if you are monitoring 1000 players every season, probably you need to review your playing style. I am not saying that you are not suppose to do that, I am just saying that is not what MZ is about. After all it's called ManagerZone, not TradingZone. So, after all, if you will have to stop doing something because of its new cost, probably that's good for you as well.
    I am curious: out of those 1000 players, how many of them are you buying (in % rate)?


    Thank you for the question.
    Finally, somebody asking an essential aspect of the current game.
    I don't know how many transfers I make, maybe 20-30 bought and 30 sold, but it is very possible to look for 10-20 players just to buy one that you like, not too mention that I like to keep in touch with the actual Market for better understanding player prices.
    This should be available for everybody who wants better knowing how they spend their money. Otherwise, they pay double or triple the player's worth.
    I always scout the Market for U23 players. At least 10 a day means 1000 in a season. It's easy maths.
    You must understand that I do that with very little money with the only purpose to discover good cheap players which I send to TC and very rarely keep the best at my team. I see no harm in that and not affecting anybody, investing club money in real scouting. I sell them after that, but many of them don't turn out to be profitable.
    I still enjoy my game in the Youth leagues. As you can see, I won both div.1 U21 and div.1 U23 in my country. Unfortunately, I had to sell many of them to survive.
    My best players are not from the Transfer Market, they are from my Academy, but in order to keep them, not sell them at the age of 19, I must get income from somewhere.
    The bonuses + weekly income are not enough.
    An active manager playing in all the competitions can't have an income of more than 500k/week, while the expenses are about the same. My current expenses are 570k/week. This leaves very little money for TCs, A good player's TC is around 100k. Sending 16-17 U23 players/season to TC means almost 2 mil./season, that's almost the bonus money.
    But on weekly basis, my projected expenses are higher than my projected income with about 50k/week.
    This is available for all the managers who own a good div. 1 or Top League team.
    This is why they sell their hot prospects only for profit, to keep their high level.
    This a very problematic aspect of the current game.
    Even if you win the Champions Cup is not profitable, which shouldn't happen in nowadays MZ.
    This is why in MZ the only real profit is made by the little guy who grows youths for profit, but never actually enjoy the game, which is bad for the game for all levels of performance.


    powdersnow wrote:
    Yeah starting to feel like we are opening the pandoras box with that one :) But it's always good to test ideas in theory.

    Analysing players of all ages from your own team seems fine. But not players from other teams. You would be able to see an analysis for a player before you purchase him, but ONLY if the selling manager has paid for an analysis. That way, a selling manager may want to analyse a player prior to adding him to the market, because it could increase the value of the player. What do you think of that?

    @mihairo. Please calm down a little. We are still talking and thinking about this. A "do it my way or I am leaving"-attitude is very discouraging. If everyone had that attitude we would never be able to release/change anything. I love your enthusiasm but please keep an open mind. :)



    Cheap, but not free is what I am leaning towards. I like that you as a manager could save a few bucks by avoiding some analyses. But at the same time you should be able to analyse all youth exchanges during a season without it digging a deep hole in your budget.

    5k?


    I made you guys start talking, didn't I? :)
    I said that losing 2 mil/season with this new feature is the best I can do. Asking for more than that, we won't be able to play anymore.
    Someone must stand up for the little guy. Not all managers have 10 years of experience and millions in their accounts, plus playing at high level.
    Most of the top teams barely survive from financial point of view.
    They need to sell hot prospects every season to make money, like I explained.
    Now, if this new feature helps everybody to grow better youths, and that means everybody, that's not exactly a guarantee for a better financial plans.
    There are 2 possiblities:

    1. The players will be better, but we can discuss that when we have real results. That means making 24 y/olds better than they are today. This means 9 seasons from now. If we pay 1-2 mil/season, that's 10-15 mil., just to see that, it's bad for business on long term.

    2. The Youths will be much better than they are today. The rate of success will be at 80-90% instead of 20-30% as it is today. It means that we will have so many good 19 y/olds on the TM that they will become very very cheap. Instead of selling 4-5 youths for 3-4 mil, you will sel 10-15 youths for the same amount of money. The difference is that the costs of youth growing will be higher with this feature.

    1k U18 and 2k O18 was my suggestion.
    Now 5k for all the players, but still free on the TM is not bad after all.
    Two questions.

    1. If a newbie has 109k in his account and opens the Academy it costs 25k, that leaves him with 84k.
    Remember that now newbies have much better teams than when we started, with highly paid paid players. 84k could be less than his team salary.
    But let's say he does open his Youth academy with maximum 23 players and must pay 5k/youth. He will have enough training analysis money for exactly 16 youths. If they are all good prospects, he can send them all to free TC. But what if they are not? Then what? He can't afford analysis the other 7 and Youth exchange would be pointless without analysis.

    2. If it's free to see the training analysis on the TM, if the owner bought it, including players without graph (there shouldn't be players without graph IMO, but that's a different discussion), does that still mean that the buyer will pay for it when the player arrives to the club or not?
    If not, and it will follow the player to his new club for free, what's the logic in making all the owners pay for it when they can get it for free from the TM?
    maria171 wrote:
    I think I agree with Mihairo here, the analysis tool should be free to use without any cost involved. Most of us here only thinking in the short term without considering the consequences in the long run. Anything higher than 2k to use this tool will just ruin the game especially for the new manager who did not develop any managerial skill nor the basic understanding of this game yet. Don't make this game becomes more complex than it's already is, please.


    Thank you. Probably...

    Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    mihairo if you are concerned about your costs and the choices you would have to make when this will be implemented. well that is a +1 for me because in a long term managerial game you need time to learn, but mostly you need to make choices, the path hasn't to be the same for everyone, that would be totally boring.
    In a game like this you have to sell players well to be able to survive like everyone does

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    A big -1 for everything you just said.
    First of all, you can't make a long term plan if you don't know what to expect.
    Second of all, selling your best prospects just to survive if you want to enjoy the game is not the way to go.
    I will not sell my prospects and that's a fact. I go through a lot of trouble for that, but that's how I enjoy the game.
    As you can see, you and me are not following the same plan.

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    [FLUSA]
    President
    mihairo wrote:
    A big -1 for everything you just said.
    First of all, you can't make a long term plan if you don't know what to expect.
    Second of all, selling your best prospects just to survive if you want to enjoy the game is not the way to go.
    I will not sell my prospects and that's a fact. I go through a lot of trouble for that, but that's how I enjoy the game.
    As you can see, you and me are not following the same plan.


    Mmmm... you must be doing something wrong, I never sell my prospects, I don't really buy expensive players, I have a top U18 team and a decent U23 team playing at the top U23 America's division, my senior team could be better but it's good enough to compete in National/Divisional/Seasons cups and the money just piles up on my account, I'm almost at $30M at the moment.

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    I was doing something wrong in the early days.
    I played MZ the hard way, learning from my mistakes.
    I am really more of a hockey fan, so many times I just made bad investments in football.
    Now this plan works for me.
    My last season's U23, currently U24, team looks really strong, with most of them from my Academy, something like the player you posted. It's just a matter of time, maybe 2-3 seasons.
    Now my goal is to avoid relegation. My Top 11 team is old and medium in physics, but I still want them to retire at the club. Maybe it was bad luck as well, because none of my current top 11 players are from my Academy.
    The youth exchange option really helped on the way. Now we see it for a fact.
    My financial balance is improving little by little.
    My profit was 1 mil. last season and I spent them all on just one 22 y/old. I hope I made a good investment. Strong players are hard to buy at the age of 26-27 so I made this compromise.
    Like Wenger said, the future is closer than it seems.

    Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    Why don't make a report more expensive if the youth you're scouting as a mega potential, and make it cheap if the player hasn't a great future?
    Frony, in this case you won't need to buy the report, because you know that if the price is high the potential is good, so you will just need to look at the price.

    That's a bad idea, it would mean that basically because you're a good manager that keep healthy finances, you get punished and you have to pay more...
    Darkline, I won't suggest milions more, just a few thousand. Just like real taxes when you are richer you have to pay more of them (Swedish people should know it better), now, this is not tecnically a tax, but money will exit your pockets just like a tax.

    also, you could buy a lot of players to get your balance very low, get all your reports for nothing and then sell the players.
    Really? You would bother to buy a bunch of players just to save a few buck? :O

    I'm almost at $30M at the moment.
    Oh, now I see why you don't like my idea :P. Probably users in your financial situation don't even need to scout players.

    I always scout the Market for U23 players. At least 10 a day means 1000 in a season
    mihairo, that's clearly not the average behavior of the average MZ user, so you see the all thing from a very particular point of view.

    Most of us here only thinking in the short term without considering the consequences in the long run.
    Maria, I don't want to sound like the major of MZ, but that's exactly how NOT to play this game (nor life in general if you must know).

    Anything higher than 2k to use this tool will just ruin the game especially for the new manager who did not develop any managerial skill nor the basic understanding of this game yet.
    There is no skill required here: you want something, you buy it and you get it, you don't want to spend money, you don't buy it, you don't get it and you trust your luck.

    Don't make this game becomes more complex than it's already is, please.
    We already have this feature, we are talking about improving it and, hopefully, making it simpler.

    Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    I always sell my best prospects because U21 players are overpriced, that gives me the possibility to sell one of them and buy with that money two O23 at a better price with less maxings to risk.
    And this attitude made me go from the last division to the 4th place in our top league in two years...
    It's naive to think that you can arrive at the top with only your youngsters, it's like counting on pure luck!

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    [FLUSA]
    President
    goalsaurus wrote:

    That's a bad idea, it would mean that basically because you're a good manager that keep healthy finances, you get punished and you have to pay more...
    Darkline, I won't suggest milions more, just a few thousand. Just like real taxes when you are richer you have to pay more of them (Swedish people should know it better), now, this is not tecnically a tax, but money will exit your pockets just like a tax.


    Still a bad idea, in MZ expenses are fixed, you pay the same for your stadium if you're rich or poor, a player won't charge you more for playing on top division, a coach won't charge you more just because you have money, etc. etc.

    Another approach could be to have 3 levels of reports, so lets say you buy a basic report for $2K which has less skills and more inaccuracies, if you like it you can pay an additional $5K for a "detailed" report and if you still want to know more you could pay an extra $10K for an "extensive" report... so basically, you can have some info for $2K or more detailed info for $17K in total.... that's just a rough idea, but the good thing about it is that it's up to the manager to decide how much to invest scouting a player.

    Sv: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    If we can choose wether we want to show the analyst report on the transfer, then it should show that there is a report not being shown. Otherwise players sold by new managers who didn't get the report at all will be assumed to have an important attribute as his worst one.

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    [POW]
    President
    panboy wrote:
    If we can choose wether we want to show the analyst report on the transfer, then it should show that there is a report not being shown. Otherwise players sold by new managers who didn't get the report at all will be assumed to have an important attribute as his worst one.


    Fully agree with this. Though I think it should always be visible (if the seller has conducted an analysis).

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    goalsaurus wrote:
    Why don't make a report more expensive if the youth you're scouting as a mega potential, and make it cheap if the player hasn't a great future?
    Frony, in this case you won't need to buy the report, because you know that if the price is high the potential is good, so you will just need to look at the price.

    That's a bad idea, it would mean that basically because you're a good manager that keep healthy finances, you get punished and you have to pay more...
    Darkline, I won't suggest milions more, just a few thousand. Just like real taxes when you are richer you have to pay more of them (Swedish people should know it better), now, this is not tecnically a tax, but money will exit your pockets just like a tax.

    also, you could buy a lot of players to get your balance very low, get all your reports for nothing and then sell the players.
    Really? You would bother to buy a bunch of players just to save a few buck? :O

    I'm almost at $30M at the moment.
    Oh, now I see why you don't like my idea :P. Probably users in your financial situation don't even need to scout players.

    I always scout the Market for U23 players. At least 10 a day means 1000 in a season
    mihairo, that's clearly not the average behavior of the average MZ user, so you see the all thing from a very particular point of view.

    Most of us here only thinking in the short term without considering the consequences in the long run.
    Maria, I don't want to sound like the major of MZ, but that's exactly how NOT to play this game (nor life in general if you must know).

    Anything higher than 2k to use this tool will just ruin the game especially for the new manager who did not develop any managerial skill nor the basic understanding of this game yet.
    There is no skill required here: you want something, you buy it and you get it, you don't want to spend money, you don't buy it, you don't get it and you trust your luck.

    Don't make this game becomes more complex than it's already is, please.
    We already have this feature, we are talking about improving it and, hopefully, making it simpler.


    If you want to be competitive on all levels it's very demanding.
    Scouting 10-20 players just to buy the one you like, that's just real.
    You can't throw your money on the first good player you see.
    This applies on all levels, from U21 to senior players.

    Let's make this clear. We all like this new feature. It's made to help us all, old CMs and newbies.
    We are just discussing the costs and its influence on the future Transfer Market.
    Better youths for everybody means more U21 players on the TM, which will not make them more expensive, but much cheaper.
    Arrogant users like Frony will not be able to sell their prospects for high prices, as it is now, to buy strong 28 y/olds.
    He doesn't realise it now, but he will.
    Now selling 4-5 U21 players can bring him 3-4 mil or more to club every season, but that is coming to an end with this feature.
    Now it looks fantastic and we think we should pay more for it, but what we don't get is that the training speed will be the same.
    I already explained that we will have a better training plan with this feature, but on long term it will have the same results.
    24 y/olds will be at the same skill level.
    So why pay extra for that?

    frony wrote:
    I always sell my best prospects because U21 players are overpriced, that gives me the possibility to sell one of them and buy with that money two O23 at a better price with less maxings to risk.
    And this attitude made me go from the last division to the 4th place in our top league in two years...
    It's naive to think that you can arrive at the top with only your youngsters, it's like counting on pure luck!


    I really don't want to make this thread about me, but if you insist...
    Irinel Lițiu

    Age: 25

    Panait Bociort

    Age: 24

    Augustin Vâlcu

    Age: 24

    Nicodim Stroici

    Age: 23

    Radu Țepelea

    Age: 23

    Marian Marica

    Age: 24

    Romeo Bobeanu

    Age: 23

    SpeedSpSpeed: 9(9)
    StaminaStStamina: 8(8)
    Play IntelligencePIPlay Intelligence: 6(6)
    PassingPaPassing: 5(5)
    ShootingShShooting: 7(7)
    HeadingHeHeading: 2(2)
    KeepingKeKeeping: 1(1)
    Ball ControlBCBall Control: 8(8)
    TacklingTaTackling: 6(6)
    Aerial PassingAPAerial Passing: 5(5)
    Set PlaysSPSet Plays: 1(1)
    ExperienceExExperience: 7(7)
    FormFoForm: 9(9)
    Total Skill Balls    58
    Ionel Curăreanu

    Age: 22

    Valeriu Bălțăteanu

    Age: 20

    Șerban Aluchei

    Age: 20



    All these players are from my Youth Academy + 2 Loyal Players, not to mention I still have U24 players which I bought from the TM and grew.
    All these players are not for sale. Please don't think I am using this thread to spam the thread.
    I neglected my teams these days for this thread, which I considered to be a greater good.
    And I'm not worried if I'm naive or not. If this will become the base of a strong team it's not really the point. It's just my idea of having fun in MZ.

    And last thing... I really don't want to appear important, so I wrote my opinions more than enough...

    @Powdersnow
    Why is it better to buy the analysis for a player without it on the TM after we have bought him, and not before?

    Thank you all.

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    [FLUSA]
    President
    mihairo wrote:
    Now it looks fantastic and we think we should pay more for it, but what we don't get is that the training speed will be the same.


    But you're missing the fact the scout will tell you which players are "fast trainers", that's something right now you can't tell straight away when you're exchanging youths so with this you have a new choice you can make... do you want a slow trainer with 20 balls or a guy with 12 balls that is a very fast trainer? And also, that depends if you're planning for the short term (u18) or the long term... who knows how many fast trainers where discarded when exchanging youths because nobody knew they could train fast in the first place...

    Sv: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    I think your on the right path powdersnow.

    Im positive on:

    2 strengths och 2 weaknesses
    This will not make it too revealing. But you will still have something to go on on choosing a future position for the player.

    A small fee
    This will make it avalible for everybody. Not only thoose with a huge amount of money or thoose who dont even have a singel senior player, with the wages that comes with actually playing the game.

    My concerns are

    How will this effect the market in the long term?

    There is many issues with this change. Many good too tough.

    The star-rating should obviously not be set in stone for either strengths and weknesses. The analyst is only human, and can make misstakes.

    A 3 star player should not guarantee even a 8 in one of his strengths. That would be way too easy. The same goes for weknesses. I can reach for a "garanteed" 7. Making it 1 more the the current talent system. (With the exeption of the rare case of a bug players maxing on 4 or 5)


    And a question about the rating of the trainingspeed. Will it be just that season the report is done? Or will it be for x-seasons after the report is made? Or even for the players entire career?

    Or even the long term speed of a player? Making it possible for a player with a 3-star rating training at less then max as a youthplayer, but there is a higher chance he will maintain that trainingspeed higher up i ages. Making it less random, but not giving a guarantee of a super effective player in his youth years. Maybe the analyst sees a the players potential in his physic and draws the conclusion that he will be able to train harder and longer then a average player.

    Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    you pay the same for your stadium if you're rich or poor, a player won't charge you more for playing on top division,
    That's actually something I would change, if I could.

    a coach won't charge you more just because you have money, etc. etc
    Well, different classes of coaches, cost differently, so that's not completely true.

    If you want to be competitive on all levels it's very demanding.
    Yeah, if you want to be competitive on all levels. Again: how many managers are seeking that?

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    [FLUSA]
    President
    goalsaurus wrote:
    a coach won't charge you more just because you have money, etc. etcWell, different classes of coaches, cost differently, so that's not completely true.


    Well like I said, I wouldn't mind if you could pay accordingly to the quality of the report you get, see my suggestion regarding that....

    Also, a lot of top teams are not necessarily rich, specially the finances of the teams that trade heavily in the market and buy a lot of players at the start of the season and then sell all at the end of it.... lots of U23 teams do that so basically, they'll be "poor" during the course of the season and "rich" at the end of it.

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    darkline wrote:
    But you're missing the fact the scout will tell you which players are "fast trainers", that's something right now you can't tell straight away when you're exchanging youths so with this you have a new choice you can make... do you want a slow trainer with 20 balls or a guy with 12 balls that is a very fast trainer? And also, that depends if you're planning for the short term (u18) or the long term... who knows how many fast trainers where discarded when exchanging youths because nobody knew they could train fast in the first place...


    Yes, we'll just have to wait and see if this will be an advantage for senior level.
    I'm sorry I didn't look enthusiastic about this feature, but the time invested into this two threads should speak for itself.
    I hope I helped everybody by doing it.

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    goalsaurus wrote:


    If you want to be competitive on all levels it's very demanding.
    Yeah, if you want to be competitive on all levels. Again: how many managers are seeking that?


    Is it forbidden?
    Here is one.
    Do you want to enjoy the game or not?
    In the end, a strong U18 team is the foundation for a strong U21 team, a strong U21 team is the foundation for a strong U23 team and a strong U23 team is the foundation for a strong senior team.
    I don't know about you, but I like continuity.
    I actually enjoy more growing Uxx players. It keeps me busy.
    Everybody finds joy in doing different things here.
    Why limit to the same thing?

    And one final thing...
    I see people start talking about stadium, coaches and obviously different things.
    Keep in mind we are here to offer a good feedback about this new feature and how it will affect the game;

    1. Better quality of U18 players
    This is undeniable. This is the whole point of this feature.

    2. Finding faster trainers or better U18 level players, how Adrian explained.
    I like decision making features anytime.

    3. How will it affect on senior level.
    We will have to wait and see if we finally see a 70 balls player at the age of 22. Of course, we shouldn't start talking training speed on this thread because we will never come to a conclution. There are some who are still not happy with the training speed and there are others complaining about fully maxed players at the age of 27-28.

    4. And this is important, how will it affect the Market and the club politics.
    There is no argue that this feature will make the Uxx players cheaper, but will that make the senior player cheaper as well? Will people pay 7-8 mil for strong 27 y/old when there will be so many strong younger players?

    5. Of course, I kept the best for last, how much should we pay for it.
    There are people saying it should be free and there are people it should be expensive, make it decision making feature. I said I like decision making features. But is it the case here? Shouldn't all the youths have this opportunity? If we have it for decision making purpose, why would it be different than what we have today? Like Adrian said, many youths could go to waste because of bad calls. Shouldn't this feature help the managers decide AFTER seeing the analysis, not decide IF they should pay for it?
    So, currently the scout report is almost 1k, while the YTC is free. I think we should keep this as a starting ground for discussion.
    Also, keep in mind that the YTC can be seen on the Training Graph for free, while the scout report is lost forever from the player's history right now, so only the owner who bought it actually saw it.
    This leaves us with another issue. The training analysis of O18 players, which I think only Powdeesnow can enlighten us. There are some variables right now, but not that many.

    With this said, I hope my contribution helped.

    Sv: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    Am I the only one here who wish the analyst report to be like a work permit? It is only for you. You pay a small fee and the report is yours. Once you sell the player, the work permit is gone. Then it is up to the new owner to decide whether to pay a small fee to buy the report or not.

    Sv: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    I want the analyst report to be personal. It is my player, i bought the report. If you want to do the same if I sell the player, that is up to you. But I dont want to choose whether I want to show it on the transfer or not.

    Ce: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    [55]
    President
    cm33 wrote:
    Am I the only one here who wish the analyst report to be like a work permit? It is only for you. You pay a small fee and the report is yours. Once you sell the player, the work permit is gone. Then it is up to the new owner to decide whether to pay a small fee to buy the report or not.


    +1

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    In my opinion one of the key factors of the desertion of users in this game is the actual way to promote a junior to senior squad, for a really competitive team its almost impossible to put more than a few former juniors in the senior team. We have a lack of at least 5 or 6 seasons between a U23 player and his capability to play in a club that often reach senior cup playoffs.

    In addition compete in senior level is ineconomic in long term, the cost of good players isnt compensable with regular cup and prize incomes. In the other hand dont compete seriously is really profitable if you only play to buy/train and sell a lot of juniors. I will be forced to play the game in this way in 2 or 3 seasons just because mantain more a senior squad than 10 seasons in a top level of strong country like Argentina is almost impossible.

    That induce a lot of managers to dont compete and "sleep" in lower divisions making large sums of money. This improvement only will benefit those that play that kind of game in detriment of ours that play to win senior trophies.

    We need more experiencie in the Uxx players to avoid this problem, otherwise Managerzone still beeing the only game which promote that users dont compete and loosing them slowly.

    Regards

    Sv: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    [TZN]
    President
    cm33 wrote:
    Am I the only one here who wish the analyst report to be like a work permit? It is only for you. You pay a small fee and the report is yours. Once you sell the player, the work permit is gone. Then it is up to the new owner to decide whether to pay a small fee to buy the report or not.


    +2

    Beantwortet: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    I also like this version of more than the first one.

    3 strengths and 2 weaknesses also seems to be a good solution. A few posts before was the discussion that it would be boring in this weakened version and that decisions making would be displeased. I don't see it that way at all. If the report becomes more exact, the decision is rather relieved, because one can see then exactly whether one gets what one looks for. Logically everyone wants exactly what hes looking for... but you should also think of the consequences if everyone gets more and more what they want.

    What I still don't like is that you want to show the scout report on the transfer market.
    I wonder about the clue? Doesn't it make the transfer market even more boring than it already is? Average players and mediocre talent players will be asked even less. It will further strenghten the direction that only the top talents can be sold for an oversized amount.
    I like the idea of hiding it totally like cm33 said before: leave the report private.

    Im sorry for this now. The discussion about the costs here are absurd. I stopped reading your posts mihairo because you refer everything to yourself and your arguments are useless. You do not understand that it is the sense of a currency that it limits possibilities. If you can buy anything you want, it gets boring. Again here the keyword: making decisions.
    In my opinion it shouldnt be for free (1k is more or less for free), so people are forced to think about if its necessary or not - ass well it shouldnt be too expensive so managers who are looking for a strong u18 team are still able to scout a lot.

    Beantwortet: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    franella82 wrote:
    In my opinion one of the key factors of the desertion of users in this game is the actual way to promote a junior to senior squad, for a really competitive team its almost impossible to put more than a few former juniors in the senior team. We have a lack of at least 5 or 6 seasons between a U23 player and his capability to play in a club that often reach senior cup playoffs.

    In addition compete in senior level is ineconomic in long term, the cost of good players isnt compensable with regular cup and prize incomes. In the other hand dont compete seriously is really profitable if you only play to buy/train and sell a lot of juniors. I will be forced to play the game in this way in 2 or 3 seasons just because mantain more a senior squad than 10 seasons in a top level of strong country like Argentina is almost impossible.

    That induce a lot of managers to dont compete and "sleep" in lower divisions making large sums of money. This improvement only will benefit those that play that kind of game in detriment of ours that play to win senior trophies.

    We need more experiencie in the Uxx players to avoid this problem, otherwise Managerzone still beeing the only game which promote that users dont compete and loosing them slowly.

    Regards


    Its a bit out of topic but thanks for that franella!

    @powdersnow: sorry i dont want to change the main subject. but i hope you can see this issue.
    maybe there is, however, the possibility to correct both weaknesses (scouting system and the financial discrimination of teams who are competitive in senior level) in combination. yes, crew is not willing to make a lot of changeing now, but there will be little harm if we start to the correct direction sooner than later...
    one small change still could be that the training speed of the youths could be a lot more variable. but the average still faster than now.

    if crew thinks thats a bad idea at all. it would be nice to let us know why. whats the reason for the circumstances that u26 players arent competitive in high level at all?

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    franella82 wrote:


    We need more experiencie in the Uxx players to avoid this problem, otherwise Managerzone still beeing the only game which promote that users dont compete and loosing them slowly.



    Perfect!!

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    cm33 wrote:
    Am I the only one here who wish the analyst report to be like a work permit? It is only for you. You pay a small fee and the report is yours. Once you sell the player, the work permit is gone. Then it is up to the new owner to decide whether to pay a small fee to buy the report or not.


    +3

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    in my opinion

    should not be included in the transfer market.

    young people must train more quickly and gain more experience as a young person so that they can compete in high level senior competitions

    training graphics should always be open in the transfer market, either cm or novice, and can be visualized by any user of the game, cm or not

    the costs of reporting should not be free but should not be expensive. I think the price paid today for the ideal report.

    Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    Is it forbidden?
    No.

    Here is one.
    Do you want to enjoy the game or not?

    Yes and I am pretty sure that the majority of users are enjoying it without trying to be competitive in all 4 leagues.

    Everybody finds joy in doing different things here.
    Why limit to the same thing?

    Of course you can do whatever you want, but you shouldn't expect the game to change the way you want, if 99,999% of people is playing differently than you. That's what I am saying.

    In addition compete in senior level is ineconomic in long term, the cost of good players isnt compensable with regular cup and prize incomes.
    Having said that, I was sure that Franella was going to suggest a change in cup and prizes incomes, but no:

    We need more experiencie in the Uxx players to avoid this problem,
    What a twist :O

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    @goalsaurus
    I have written so many things, offering so many solutions and you still say I did it because I just want things my way.
    I said that making this feature too expensive is bad for the clubs, not just my club.
    Every time I gave examples from my club. Where should I have given them from?
    Of course, I don't really mind if 99,99% of the users have different financial plans, but to suggest that I spent entire days on this threads just to change the game for my own benefits, I've wasted my time.

    Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    I have written so many things, offering so many solutions and you still say I did it because I just want things my way.
    We were talking about the cost of the scout, not so many things and, yes, I think you see this potential change from your own point of view, just like everybody else, the difference is that your point of view is, in my opinion, very particular. That's it.

    I said that making this feature too expensive is bad for the clubs, not just my club.
    Ok, but what do you mean with too expensive? I bet darkline, with his 30M, doesn't even realize when he's scouting young players, because today the scout is so cheap I can't even understand why we have to pay those few $: it doesn't make sense. Now, since the scout is going to be improved, it's only fair to pay more so the game will be more challenging and we are talking about small numbers anyway. So, when you are asking: If we have it for decision making purpose, why would it be different than what we have today? Because making people pay for it is going to make them think about it: it's totally different from today.

    but to suggest that I spent entire days on this threads just to change the game for my own benefits, I've wasted my time.
    Probably you share you own benefits with other managers, but how many of them?

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    goalsaurus wrote:

    We need more experiencie in the Uxx players to avoid this problem,
    What a twist :O


    If the u25 players were capable to play at the same level with +30 players will be much easier to have healthy financial numbers playing seniors. And stimulates the youth training to competition and not only to market.

    Raise the cup incomes Will be another possibilitie but in association with more inflation.

    Ce: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    [55]
    President
    Dear Friends;
    *Analysis System = 3 shows good 2 Bad features.
    *for the player who bought the report again must be received.
    *fee will be 1 K.
    *the main features of a 3-star player in the report can not be ticked before 8.
    *analysis report in transfer market is optional or prohibited.
    *do not talk about the number of experience ball players here.:)
    you want to add?

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    Why I have a feeling that some managers want to have a go at MZ like playing solo in football manager(game) ???

    If you want to dominate in MZ in every level, you're not supposed to do it easily

    And again, having a tool like The Analyst, doesn't mean that you're supposed to use it in every single player there is out there (even if it's silly not to)

    It's like saying, my salary is 100$ but there are so many different consumer products out there that I want to buy them all and I need more than 5000$ per month...

    so I will quit my 100$ because the salary I get doesn't let me buy a ferrari...
    (silly reference but I hope you get what I'm trying to say)

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    aldebaran wrote:
    Why I have a feeling that some managers want to have a go at MZ like playing solo in football manager(game) ???

    If you want to dominate in MZ in every level, you're not supposed to do it easily

    And again, having a tool like The Analyst, doesn't mean that you're supposed to use it in every single player there is out there (even if it's silly not to)

    It's like saying, my salary is 100$ but there are so many different consumer products out there that I want to buy them all and I need more than 5000$ per month...

    so I will quit my 100$ because the salary I get doesn't let me buy a ferrari...
    (silly reference but I hope you get what I'm trying to say)


    Was this adressed to me? Because it feels like it.
    I didn't ask for more club money.
    Show me solutions, not silly questions.
    This really makes me wish this feature will be expensive. I hope I made my point.
    I have already finished my suggestions.

    Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    If the u25 players were capable to play at the same level with +30 players will be much easier to have healthy financial numbers playing seniors.
    Ok, but if you give U25 players a lot of experience, O27 will be wothless in the TM, am I right?

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    [FLUSA]
    President
    goalsaurus wrote:
    If the u25 players were capable to play at the same level with +30 players will be much easier to have healthy financial numbers playing seniors.
    Ok, but if you give U25 players a lot of experience, O27 will be wothless in the TM, am I right?


    I don't think so, the O27 player will still have a higher total count of balls.

    Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    I don't think so, the O27 player will still have a higher total count of balls.
    Just like U25, so why should I buy an O27 when I can buy an U25 with the same skills but more time to play before retiring?

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    goalsaurus wrote:


    but to suggest that I spent entire days on this threads just to change the game for my own benefits, I've wasted my time.

    Probably you share you own benefits with other managers, but how many of them?


    Sorry, what?
    Is it a bad Google translation or what?

    Currently we are 10,000 active managers in Football and only 1,000 active managers in Hockey.
    How would you feel playing a game with just 50 people in your entire country? Because that's what happened to my hockey community and we are currently both U21 and senior World Champions.
    10 years ago, Sweden alone had more than 2,000 hockey teams.
    Do you think I know all this just because I played the game for my own benefits?

    I want to make a bet with everybody not seeing my point of view.
    The old clubs struggled financially for many times in the past and if we weren't there to make suggestions to help newbies then, they would have been struggling as well now.
    We should think about how this feature helps the numbers to go up.
    So, I'm betting that if we make this feature expensive the numbers will go down even further.
    We will have 3 times more U21 players on the Market and the same amount of potential buyers or even less.

    And I'm saying all this because all I care about is me, myself and I,
    You are way off and you should stop right now, before making embarrassing.
    I said what I had to say already.
    If people want to read and ask me anything, I will politely reply.
    Other than that, I'm not interested in arguing.
    Questioning my point of view is not the way.
    Offering your point of view is.
    I hope we finished our chat. It's more than enough for me.

    Ce: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    So what is going to be happen after all words. What is the updated about scouting and analysing system?

    Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    Sorry, what?
    Is it a bad Google translation or what?

    I just wanted to know how many managers do you think are in your situation.

    How would you feel playing a game with just 50 people in your entire country? Because that's what happened to my hockey community and we are currently both U21 and senior World Champions.
    I agree that we should probably improve other sides of the game, but you can't blame this feature for that number drop.

    The old clubs struggled financially for many times in the past and if we weren't there to make suggestions to help newbies then, they would have been struggling as well now.
    I agree with you on the financial problems, but I don't think an optional feature is going to increase them like you are suggesting. If you want to discuss the economy of the game (the mandatory expenses are probably a bigger problem), I will be happy to do it in a proper 3d and I will probably agree with you on many things.

    My opinion on this feature is that showing 3 strong skills is good enough for me and the idea about different quality levels of scouts with different prices came up in the italian forum as well.

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    Ok, I am sorry for being so acid.
    We are not English native speakers and it happens.

    I think no other managers are in my situation. I try to be different by nature.
    But I always play by the rules.
    So if the rules forbids us to play our game is not right.

    If I explained things from my point of view was precisely to make others explain theor points of view.

    More pertinent opinions help us to have a better feedback about this new feature.

    There is no doubt that this feature is better than what we currently have.
    It will help us grow better youths.

    But will it help us from a financial aspect?
    If yes, I agree we should pay for it.
    But what if it doesn't?
    If we lose club money, it will have negative impact on the game. It's logic.

    And yes, the mandatory expenses are already a big problem.
    Should we add this feature to them?

    There is another big issue. Many people who posted here don't want this feature on the Transfer Market.
    This means scounting will be completely blind.
    Do we want that?

    With this new feature there are two ways you can train youth players:
    1. Max the strengths for high skills and sell the players with hidden weaknesses just to trick people into paying more than he's worth
    2. Train the players on other skills for better understanding his true potential, but lose money in the process.
    MZ and many other RL situations showed us that transparency is better, is fair.

    And since many showed that there is no one like me (and I take it as a compliment), we will probably continie playing this game with no horizon.

    Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

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    So, I did post a similar idea back in April 2018.
    Link below:
    https://www.managerzone.com/?p=forum&sub=topic&sport=soccer&forum_id=13&topic_id=12345779&post_id=44357263#44357263

    My idea consists of two areas:
    1. "scouting system" and how skills are presented
    2. Draft system

    While there were some legit arguments against my scouting system (mostly -> too complexed), which I agree with; I think that the second part, with the "intraleague draft" would work quite well. It would also make most sense if it was for free, available to every team within the league.

    I'll paste the content of the Draft system idea below, in case you're too lazy to click the link :P Just ignore the parts that mention how the Rating / Scouts analysis works.

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    DRAFT SYSTEM

    Every draft would be an intra-league event. Meaning, each divison would get it own, seperate draft.

    The draft would take place from day 78, until day 89 of every season.
    The drafted players will arrive at the beginning of a new season, of course, once older players graduate from the academy and make space.

    Pre-conditions:
    a. option to increase / decrease academy size would be limited to once per season and the effect would take place only at day 1 of a new season. This goes also for new teams joining the game
    b. there is no Youth Exchange tool - you will be “stuck” with the drafted players as there is no way to discard them

    How I imagine it working:
    On day 78, the game will check the total amount of new available places in your youth academy (in case you ordered to increase the size, during the season) and number of youths graduating by the end of the season.

    Let’s say I had academy of size of 20 players, and I ordered to increase it to 23. The increase will take place when new season starts. Let’s say that 13 of my current 20 youths will graduate, because they are 18 years old already. This means that I will have 7 / 23 youths only, so 16 free spots for new youths.

    This calculation will be done for EVERY team in the league.

    Let’s say that all 12 teams in my league , have a total of 75 places for new youths in the next season (season 66)

    On day 78 of season 65, the game will generate 75 youth players for the draft in my league. I will receive 16 draft choices to fill out the 16 vacant spots in my academy.

    It might be that some teams will have 0 draft choices, in case they have a full academy and no graduates when the new season starts. Those teams will just skip the draft this season, but in the upcoming seasons they will have more graduates so more draft choices.

    The draft should be a sub-page in the League overview page.
    To keep it as simple as possible, each team will create a wishlist/ shortlist.

    Following the example I provided, with 75 players up for draft in my league.
    Just like in the Tactics editor of Set Players, we can move players up and down and this way we create the wishlist. Just put the most desired player at the top. Then second most desired player on the second place. Etc etc.

    Every player would have the Player Rating revealed, just like I described above (eg. World Class Defensive Midfielder). So managers will have some sort of idea about the potential of every player and can set their wishlist accordingly. Then press SAVE button.
    Note: other managers cannot see how you configured your wishlist.

    On day 89 draft starts. The draft order is as this: the team that took 12th place in your league will start with their first pick. Then 11th team. Etc etc. It all happens automatically, based on the wishlists

    So the 12th team will get their most desired player as the first pick in the draft. Then 11th team gets their top desired player (unless the player is already picked by anotherteam). etc etc until League winner gets their pick. Then the process repeats, 12th team picks their second most desired player.

    Of course: if a team has no picks in this season draft edition, we just skip the team in the process. Also, if the team had only like 2 picks and already chosen the 2 players, the this team is already skipped from the rest of the draft. The draft continues until all players are drafted. And they all are drafted because the game created the number of players equal to the number of available vacant spots in the academies of the teams in the league.

    Note: inactive teams - should they particiapte at all? I don’t know, we can skip them.

    Note: when the players are created, there should be a default order of the players on wishlists, so if some team (active team) does not make any changes at all, it will have the default wishlist order.

    What does this draft system mean? It means that weakest team in the league will get to choose the top talent and strenghten their team ofr the future. I think it’s fair. In the end, the choice belongs to the manager, so perhaps they decide to choose a different player, not the one that other managers perceive as top player available.

    For example, give all the U18 competitions, if you treat them seriously, you might want to draft players who will suit your tactics. Like you have many U18 defenders, but you need a striker, or a winger with aerial passing. You can try to find such player in the draft and make him your top priority pick, instead of some other player.


    To summarize, what I like the most about this idea:
    - teams from same league compete in the draft for the same players
    - managers have the ability to know a bit more about the players’ potential
    - managers have the ability to choose their top draft priorities
    - it removes the dull and fully luck based current youth system
    - if the original scout rating is displayed in the player profile when he becomes a senior and it is displayed on the transfer market, the potential buyer might be able to figure out some unmaxings in the key, or secondary skills.
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