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Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 07-02-2019 16:38

[BFTF]

We have revamped the suggested Youth Potential Analysis feature after taking onboard feedback from the first thread (which you can find here: https://www.managerzone.com/?p=forum&sub=topic&topic_id=12465076&forum_id=10&sport=soccer) Some quick comments before going into the details: [li] After digesting the feedback, the new suggestion is less transparent and the randomization factor has been amped up. [li] We have discarded the idea of defining "roles". People who play MZ all have different ideas about what constitutes a role, and that is as it should be. Also, as the game goes through transitions, the skills that make up a role could change and the feature would then be outdated. [li] We do not see the need for time-limitations of various kinds (for instance cooldown between uses, or having to wait while the Analyst prepares his report). Nor do we want to tie it to the coach system. Things like that only serve to add extra layers of complexity to a game which is already very complex. [/li] [b]Version 2[/b] [img]https://www.managerzone.com/dynimg/pic.php?type=news&id=analystv2[/img] The Analyst will do his best to predict the players strongest and weakest points, focusing on specific abilities rather than roles. Instead of using a five-star rating we brought it down to three. Under strengths, the Analyst will lift out three of the players strongest potential abilities. The Analyst will give rate how much potential the player has in these three skills as a whole. The weakness factor will work in a slightly different way. Rather than simply picking the weakest skill, the Analyst will pick a [b]key[/b] skill where the player shows poor potential. A three star player will always be very good and a one star player usually pretty bad. However, the Analyst is a human, and therefore imperfect. The chances of achieving a certain star-rating will be based on sliding scales of likelihood (exact details will not be disclosed to the community). The feature will be either very cheap (in Team money) or completely free to use. We believe that a high cost is not the right way to balance the feature. It would be visible in the transfer market and would follow the player to his new club. The feature will let you find a path for your players development since it highlights the players personal strengths and a key weakness. It will also give you a decent answer to the question "could this be a useful player" without ruining the fun of following his progress. There is plenty of mystery still to be unveiled, but you will quickly be able to discard players that don't have any real talents. The feature is also intuitive: new users will not need to study the manual to use it, the information is easy to interpret. Thoughts? :)We have revamped the suggested Youth Potential Analysis feature after taking onboard feedback from the first thread (which you can find here: https://www.managerzone.com/?p=forum&sub=topic&topic_id=12465076&forum_id=10&sport=soccer)

Some quick comments before going into the details:

After digesting the feedback, the new suggestion is less transparent and the randomization factor has been amped up.

We have discarded the idea of defining "roles". People who play MZ all have different ideas about what constitutes a role, and that is as it should be. Also, as the game goes through transitions, the skills that make up a role could change and the feature would then be outdated.

We do not see the need for time-limitations of various kinds (for instance cooldown between uses, or having to wait while the Analyst prepares his report). Nor do we want to tie it to the coach system. Things like that only serve to add extra layers of complexity to a game which is already very complex.

Version 2


The Analyst will do his best to predict the players strongest and weakest points, focusing on specific abilities rather than roles. Instead of using a five-star rating we brought it down to three.

Under strengths, the Analyst will lift out three of the players strongest potential abilities. The Analyst will give rate how much potential the player has in these three skills as a whole.

The weakness factor will work in a slightly different way. Rather than simply picking the weakest skill, the Analyst will pick a key skill where the player shows poor potential.

A three star player will always be very good and a one star player usually pretty bad. However, the Analyst is a human, and therefore imperfect. The chances of achieving a certain star-rating will be based on sliding scales of likelihood (exact details will not be disclosed to the community).

The feature will be either very cheap (in Team money) or completely free to use. We believe that a high cost is not the right way to balance the feature.

It would be visible in the transfer market and would follow the player to his new club.

The feature will let you find a path for your players development since it highlights the players personal strengths and a key weakness. It will also give you a decent answer to the question "could this be a useful player" without ruining the fun of following his progress. There is plenty of mystery still to be unveiled, but you will quickly be able to discard players that don't have any real talents. The feature is also intuitive: new users will not need to study the manual to use it, the information is easy to interpret.


Thoughts? :)

 

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Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 07-02-2019 16:41

[BFTF]

And to reiterate from the other thread, the new feature would not cost any Tokens and Club Members will not get any benefits. This would be a free-for-all feature.And to reiterate from the other thread, the new feature would not cost any Tokens and Club Members will not get any benefits. This would be a free-for-all feature.

Ce: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By zargan123 - 07-02-2019 17:24

[GS]

It looks very nice :)It looks very nice :)

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By hanzinho - 07-02-2019 18:04

[WCE]
President

Why make it complex and useful, when you can make it simple and random. Sadly this seems to be the mantra for the development of this game :/ We already have a crappy scouting system that feels random. I don't see why we need another one on top of that. You don't want to confuse (new) users by creating something complex, but in the same process you have no problem confusing them by "amping up the randomization". I liked the initial suggestion, and felt it had potential. This one however.. Garbage material. There was a few good suggestions in the previous thread. I have no idea how we ended up here. Anyways, good luck.Why make it complex and useful, when you can make it simple and random. Sadly this seems to be the mantra for the development of this game :/

We already have a crappy scouting system that feels random. I don't see why we need another one on top of that. You don't want to confuse (new) users by creating something complex, but in the same process you have no problem confusing them by "amping up the randomization".

I liked the initial suggestion, and felt it had potential. This one however.. Garbage material. There was a few good suggestions in the previous thread. I have no idea how we ended up here.

Anyways, good luck.

Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By goalsaurus (LA) - 07-02-2019 18:04

Ok, now I really cannot see the difference with the scout. That's basically a better scout, so I am assuming you will get rid of it.Ok, now I really cannot see the difference with the scout. That's basically a better scout, so I am assuming you will get rid of it.

Sv: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By disinocht - 07-02-2019 18:16

[204]
President

I like the new idea here, as it doesn't seem too revealing nor too complex. I'm just wondering about one thing: Would it be possible to use the scout on the same player more times to make it more accurate, or is the result final for the rest of his career?[MZ][MZ]I like the new idea here, as it doesn't seem too revealing nor too complex.

I'm just wondering about one thing: Would it be possible to use the scout on the same player more times to make it more accurate, or is the result final for the rest of his career?

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By darkline - 07-02-2019 18:23

[FLUSA]
President

That's pretty much the information I can get with the current scouting system, with it I can get 3 key skills, the weak skill I can always deduce and same with training speed.... only difference is that I don't have to think to guess the weak skill & training speed... I'm not a big fan of the youth potential tool, but if I have to choose I rather get the original idea without modifications than this that just feels like a dumbed down version of the current scouting system.That's pretty much the information I can get with the current scouting system, with it I can get 3 key skills, the weak skill I can always deduce and same with training speed.... only difference is that I don't have to think to guess the weak skill & training speed...

I'm not a big fan of the youth potential tool, but if I have to choose I rather get the original idea without modifications than this that just feels like a dumbed down version of the current scouting system.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 07-02-2019 20:33

[BFTF]

This tool would be vastly better than the current scouting tool (which would be replaced by the Analysis feature). Without going too much into the current tool, this proposed one does actually pinpoint the players best and weakest skills (the current scout doesn't really do that, it suggests a role for the player based on a number of different factors). It also goes further and gives you an indication about how strong the skills are, and how weak the weakness is. Not an EXACT indication (that is where the randomization comes in) but a good idea to base an informed decision on. In addition it let's you know the training speed before you even traded the player in (useful if you're into u18 competitions). Just because I say the word random doesn't mean the whole feature is based on pure chance. Hanz, you are working hard to misread my words. :)This tool would be vastly better than the current scouting tool (which would be replaced by the Analysis feature).

Without going too much into the current tool, this proposed one does actually pinpoint the players best and weakest skills (the current scout doesn't really do that, it suggests a role for the player based on a number of different factors). It also goes further and gives you an indication about how strong the skills are, and how weak the weakness is. Not an EXACT indication (that is where the randomization comes in) but a good idea to base an informed decision on. In addition it let's you know the training speed before you even traded the player in (useful if you're into u18 competitions).

Just because I say the word random doesn't mean the whole feature is based on pure chance. Hanz, you are working hard to misread my words. :)

Edited: 07-02-2019 20:43
Total edits: 1

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 07-02-2019 20:40

[BFTF]

No you would only get to use it once per player. It is a pretty powerful tool and together with some savvy training decisions you would fairly quickly be able to pick out the gems in your academy and weed out the hopeless ones. Again, don't read too much into the randomization aspect. It is there, but not to trip you up, only to preserve some of the tension.

disinocht wrote:

I like the new idea here, as it doesn't seem too revealing nor too complex.

I'm just wondering about one thing: Would it be possible to use the scout on the same player more times to make it more accurate, or is the result final for the rest of his career?

No you would only get to use it once per player. It is a pretty powerful tool and together with some savvy training decisions you would fairly quickly be able to pick out the gems in your academy and weed out the hopeless ones.

Again, don't read too much into the randomization aspect. It is there, but not to trip you up, only to preserve some of the tension.

Ce: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By zargan123 - 07-02-2019 21:07

[GS]

Maybe weak skills can be 3 as strong skills. Not only 1 skill. Is it possible?Maybe weak skills can be 3 as strong skills. Not only 1 skill. Is it possible?

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By hanzinho - 07-02-2019 21:40

[WCE]
President

Powdersnow: I just don't see how a scope ranging from 1 to 3 stars would be particularly useful. Sure, if the kid has 1 star in his key attributes, you know he has no potential overall. If he has 3 stars, he could still max early somewhere else and be useless. Lets say a player has crappy potential in both stamina and play intelligence, then there is no possibility to find out using the analyst report. The analyst might even pick another "key" skill that he highlights as weak. And voila, you have a 3 star youth that comes with a garbage potential. And this is even before any deviations you code (analyst inaccuracies). As others also pointed out, that suggestion looks very similar to the current scout report. I had a good night sleep last night, yet I can't stop yawning when I see that screenshot you presented. That report looks so dull. And since the report will be cheap or for free, then there is no managerial decision making process either. What I suggested would have involved some decision making. That is one of the elements this game is currently lacking. I also saw some other suggestions that would have added to the gaming experience. But no, here we are, back at ground zero again. Looking at something that looks a lot similar to something you implemented years ago, and which doesn't work. Those of us who are competing in youth competitions need a method for locating talents, because once a player is 17 we can't swap him out. We are completely locked to all the 17 and 18 year old players we have. So we better get it somewhat right when we pick our 16 year olds. Currently you have to chose between optimizing youth development or competing for gold. With a good enough YPA system we could have both. I agree that the first suggestion was a bit overpowered. But now it is the complete opposite. If you want to go for the newest version, then you could just aswell use your resources elsewhere in my opinion.Powdersnow:

I just don't see how a scope ranging from 1 to 3 stars would be particularly useful. Sure, if the kid has 1 star in his key attributes, you know he has no potential overall. If he has 3 stars, he could still max early somewhere else and be useless.

Lets say a player has crappy potential in both stamina and play intelligence, then there is no possibility to find out using the analyst report. The analyst might even pick another "key" skill that he highlights as weak. And voila, you have a 3 star youth that comes with a garbage potential. And this is even before any deviations you code (analyst inaccuracies).

As others also pointed out, that suggestion looks very similar to the current scout report. I had a good night sleep last night, yet I can't stop yawning when I see that screenshot you presented. That report looks so dull. And since the report will be cheap or for free, then there is no managerial decision making process either.

What I suggested would have involved some decision making. That is one of the elements this game is currently lacking. I also saw some other suggestions that would have added to the gaming experience. But no, here we are, back at ground zero again. Looking at something that looks a lot similar to something you implemented years ago, and which doesn't work.

Those of us who are competing in youth competitions need a method for locating talents, because once a player is 17 we can't swap him out. We are completely locked to all the 17 and 18 year old players we have. So we better get it somewhat right when we pick our 16 year olds. Currently you have to chose between optimizing youth development or competing for gold. With a good enough YPA system we could have both.

I agree that the first suggestion was a bit overpowered. But now it is the complete opposite. If you want to go for the newest version, then you could just aswell use your resources elsewhere in my opinion.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By hanzinho - 07-02-2019 22:11

[WCE]
President

But that is the exact reason why you should have the option to pick between different roles, and not be fed some package that Crew find suitable to code in there. I really don't understand your reasoning. In that screenshot of yours is a striker suitable to play in a short passing tactic. He might be useless in a wing-tactic. Maybe he will max at 5 in heading. You are basically replicating the mistakes of the past. Finding a winger or a target-man under the current scout report system is impossible, because you guys didn't define such roles. And here we go again.

powdersnow wrote:

We have discarded the idea of defining "roles". People who play MZ all have different ideas about what constitutes a role, and that is as it should be

But that is the exact reason why you should have the option to pick between different roles, and not be fed some package that Crew find suitable to code in there. I really don't understand your reasoning.

In that screenshot of yours is a striker suitable to play in a short passing tactic. He might be useless in a wing-tactic. Maybe he will max at 5 in heading.

You are basically replicating the mistakes of the past. Finding a winger or a target-man under the current scout report system is impossible, because you guys didn't define such roles. And here we go again.

Sv: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By cannava - 07-02-2019 22:47

[Nobel]

Keep it like it is i think. This dosent look like mza or have the feeling like mza. Look like a Another game. I hope there gonna be a voting and thai idea loss.Keep it like it is i think. This dosent look like mza or have the feeling like mza. Look like a Another game. I hope there gonna be a voting and thai idea loss.

Ce: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By deleted_8536705 - 07-02-2019 22:50

[MZCN]

it is better than the current situation :)it is better than the current situation :)

Sv: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By cannava - 07-02-2019 22:57

[Nobel]

No

tnrtrkgl55 wrote:

it is better than the current situation :)

No

Ce: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By deleted_8536705 - 07-02-2019 23:00

[MZCN]

*will the analyst have 3 good features 9-10?*will the analyst have 3 good features 9-10?

Ce: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By deleted_8536705 - 07-02-2019 23:17

[MZCN]

Why? it's a lot of luck right now, isn't it? why bother with crappy infrastructures? you won't lose your money and time in vain :) what didn't you like?

cannava wrote:

No

Why? it's a lot of luck right now, isn't it?
why bother with crappy infrastructures?
you won't lose your money and time in vain :)
what didn't you like?

Sv: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By cannava - 07-02-2019 23:29

[Nobel]

Luck or badluck is part of life. Dont want too be served on a silverplate. Like the wait and see how Good or bad a youtplayer are gonna be and how fast he gonna train later on. Dont want a facit right a way..

tnrtrkgl55 wrote:

Why? it's a lot of luck right now, isn't it?
why bother with crappy infrastructures?
you won't lose your money and time in vain :)
what didn't you like?

Luck or badluck is part of life. Dont want too be served on a silverplate. Like the wait and see how Good or bad a youtplayer are gonna be and how fast he gonna train later on. Dont want a facit right a way..

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By aldebaran - 08-02-2019 00:30

What will happen when we all start producing "star" players and end up losing again because of "random sim" ? There's more to just "make everything simple and easy for users" when it comes to balancing a game... Anyway, much better version than the current scout option Seeing this from the side of a casual user (non competitive one that is), I think it's a nice (and better than the current scout) feature Just (pretty please with sugar on top) be certain that you remove from our transfer history all the entries about exchanged youths, cause I have a feeling that the "exchange" button is gonna get pushed lots of times, specialy for those youths with just 1star in training rate I would have prefered something else that would have added an extra twist to the game, but then that's just me. If you think that this will cause an influx of new users that would stick to the game, then it's all fine by me :) [color=gray]edit: thing > think, as requested. /disi[/color]

tnrtrkgl55 wrote:

Why? it's a lot of luck right now, isn't it?
why bother with crappy infrastructures?
you won't lose your money and time in vain :)
what didn't you like?

What will happen when we all start producing "star" players and end up losing again because of "random sim" ?

There's more to just "make everything simple and easy for users" when it comes to balancing a game...

Anyway, much better version than the current scout option

Seeing this from the side of a casual user (non competitive one that is), I think it's a nice (and better than the current scout) feature

Just (pretty please with sugar on top) be certain that you remove from our transfer history all the entries about exchanged youths, cause I have a feeling that the "exchange" button is gonna get pushed lots of times, specialy for those youths with just 1star in training rate

I would have prefered something else that would have added an extra twist to the game, but then that's just me.

If you think that this will cause an influx of new users that would stick to the game, then it's all fine by me

:)

edit:

thing > think, as requested.

/disi

Edited: 09-02-2019 17:39
Total edits: 1

Sv: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By panboy - 08-02-2019 08:24

[LEGEND]

As the youth system is at the moment many future superplayers get discarded due to starting out with too few balls, other superstar material never go all the way because they are trained for example as a defender when his maximum is 10 in header and shooting. This is good because it keeps the amount of super players down. With this new feature all the youth with potential to become super playes will become super players and 10 seasons from now there will be so many more teams with super players and then it will be much more down to luck in the highest leagues and in the cups. Sure, new managers will feel that they can get a good team in the foreseeable future, but I think the game will as a whole become less interesting. Unless we set the max amount of balls to 15 as suggested before ;) Or setting it to 20 and get rid of maxings completely, then MZ would really become a true team building and managing game.As the youth system is at the moment many future superplayers get discarded due to starting out with too few balls, other superstar material never go all the way because they are trained for example as a defender when his maximum is 10 in header and shooting. This is good because it keeps the amount of super players down. With this new feature all the youth with potential to become super playes will become super players and 10 seasons from now there will be so many more teams with super players and then it will be much more down to luck in the highest leagues and in the cups. Sure, new managers will feel that they can get a good team in the foreseeable future, but I think the game will as a whole become less interesting. Unless we set the max amount of balls to 15 as suggested before ;) Or setting it to 20 and get rid of maxings completely, then MZ would really become a true team building and managing game.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 08-02-2019 10:03

[BFTF]

That depends on how you define the stars. A three-star rating should be a really good indication that this player has got some seriously interesting "peaks". If the weakness is also somewhat strong then you know you have an overall strong player. Sure you would get some dubious reports along with some really useful ones, and you would still have to do some of the legwork yourself. You need to combine the analysis with managerial skills and also hope for some luck. Yes we are trying to walk the fine line between "too easy" and "properly useful information". As you can see, there are managers who feel very strongly both ways (and all thinks their particular opinion is the only correct one). So it is just a matter of finding that balance. The current scout don't give you decent information so Youths today are largely a shot in the dark. I think that using the Youth Exchange feature could be as much fun as following the training reports, if not more. That is what we are going for :) @alderaban: I think "simple" is always worth aiming for. Simple doesn't mean dumb, it means that all fat has been trimmed off, a clean function that does what it is supposed to. Yeah three stars will be indicative of a really good player.

hanzinho wrote:

Powdersnow:I just don't see how a scope ranging from 1 to 3 stars would be particularly useful. Sure, if the kid has 1 star in his key attributes, you know he has no potential overall. If he has 3 stars, he could still max early somewhere else and be useless.

That depends on how you define the stars. A three-star rating should be a really good indication that this player has got some seriously interesting "peaks". If the weakness is also somewhat strong then you know you have an overall strong player.

Sure you would get some dubious reports along with some really useful ones, and you would still have to do some of the legwork yourself. You need to combine the analysis with managerial skills and also hope for some luck.

cannava wrote:

Luck or badluck is part of life. Dont want too be served on a silverplate. Like the wait and see how Good or bad a youtplayer are gonna be and how fast he gonna train later on. Dont want a facit right a way..

Yes we are trying to walk the fine line between "too easy" and "properly useful information". As you can see, there are managers who feel very strongly both ways (and all thinks their particular opinion is the only correct one). So it is just a matter of finding that balance. The current scout don't give you decent information so Youths today are largely a shot in the dark. I think that using the Youth Exchange feature could be as much fun as following the training reports, if not more. That is what we are going for :)

@alderaban: I think "simple" is always worth aiming for. Simple doesn't mean dumb, it means that all fat has been trimmed off, a clean function that does what it is supposed to.

tnrtrkgl55 wrote:

*will the analyst have 3 good features 9-10?

Yeah three stars will be indicative of a really good player.

Ce: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By zargan123 - 08-02-2019 10:04

[GS]

I'm sorry but I will ask you again, powdersnow. Maybe weak skills can be 3 as strong skills or at least 2 weak skills. Not only 1 skill. Is it possible to do that?I'm sorry but I will ask you again, powdersnow.
Maybe weak skills can be 3 as strong skills or at least 2 weak skills. Not only 1 skill. Is it possible to do that?

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 08-02-2019 10:06

[BFTF]

@zargan: I am definitely open to that idea!@zargan: I am definitely open to that idea!

Ce: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By deleted_8536705 - 08-02-2019 10:34

[MZCN]

+1

zargan123 wrote:

I'm sorry but I will ask you again, powdersnow.
Maybe weak skills can be 3 as strong skills or at least 2 weak skills. Not only 1 skill. Is it possible to do that?

+1

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By darkline - 08-02-2019 12:41

[FLUSA]
President

I like the suggestion of 2 weak skills, knowing the weak skills for me is even more useful than knowing the key skills. Now are they fitting any preset package or the scout is coming up with actual skills? For example a guy with 10 tackling & 10 shooting, will the scout try to fit the "key skills" to either a defender or striker package or he will just say that his key skills are tackling & shooting?I like the suggestion of 2 weak skills, knowing the weak skills for me is even more useful than knowing the key skills.

Now are they fitting any preset package or the scout is coming up with actual skills? For example a guy with 10 tackling & 10 shooting, will the scout try to fit the "key skills" to either a defender or striker package or he will just say that his key skills are tackling & shooting?

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 08-02-2019 15:37

[BFTF]

Actually, for the weakness, the idea is to have the analyst choose between skills that are generally considered important for all players (except maybe for the keeper). Speed, Stamina, Play Intelligence, Passing, maybe Ball control? The analyst would show you the weakest of these and give it a star-rating. The rationale behind that is to make sure that the weakness is always somewhat relevant. Rather than, for instance, showing that Tackling is a weak skill for a player that pulls Shooting, Ball Control and Heading as strengths... that would be a pretty lame piece of information. If your [b]weakest[/b] skill is two stars, you know the player is probably pretty well rounded, because that also says something about all the other skills. Under strengths, the analyst would not take any specific roles in mind (from packages or otherwise). It would just be the three best skills, so you would know beforehand what they are. The idea is also to never include Set Pieces in the strengths since it would be considered redundant information to most users.

darkline wrote:

I like the suggestion of 2 weak skills, knowing the weak skills for me is even more useful than knowing the key skills.

Now are they fitting any preset package or the scout is coming up with actual skills? For example a guy with 10 tackling & 10 shooting, will the scout try to fit the "key skills" to either a defender or striker package or he will just say that his key skills are tackling & shooting?

Actually, for the weakness, the idea is to have the analyst choose between skills that are generally considered important for all players (except maybe for the keeper). Speed, Stamina, Play Intelligence, Passing, maybe Ball control? The analyst would show you the weakest of these and give it a star-rating. The rationale behind that is to make sure that the weakness is always somewhat relevant. Rather than, for instance, showing that Tackling is a weak skill for a player that pulls Shooting, Ball Control and Heading as strengths... that would be a pretty lame piece of information.

If your weakest skill is two stars, you know the player is probably pretty well rounded, because that also says something about all the other skills.

Under strengths, the analyst would not take any specific roles in mind (from packages or otherwise). It would just be the three best skills, so you would know beforehand what they are. The idea is also to never include Set Pieces in the strengths since it would be considered redundant information to most users.

Ant: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By devos - 08-02-2019 15:41

[•ZONE•]
President

Lolz, seems like every single suggestion I made, was only used to do the exact opposite. But hey, unrealistic features can be fun too... [:O] I don't really like this new version, but I'll give it a go. Two remarks: - As stated above, the scout should give 3 weak skills instead of 1. It would be too easy to max out that 1 skill to get loads of information. - PLEASE use this moment to change the youth training camps of exchanged youth players aswell. Right now, their training camps consist of the same skills, 3 seasons in a row. Why? Let them change skills each season, like normal youth players.Lolz, seems like every single suggestion I made, was only used to do the exact opposite. But hey, unrealistic features can be fun too... :O

I don't really like this new version, but I'll give it a go.

Two remarks:
- As stated above, the scout should give 3 weak skills instead of 1. It would be too easy to max out that 1 skill to get loads of information.
- PLEASE use this moment to change the youth training camps of exchanged youth players aswell. Right now, their training camps consist of the same skills, 3 seasons in a row. Why? Let them change skills each season, like normal youth players.

Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By goalsaurus (LA) - 08-02-2019 16:00

Reporting 3 strong skills and 3 weak skills is making everything too easy. Maybe 2 and 2? [:S]Reporting 3 strong skills and 3 weak skills is making everything too easy. Maybe 2 and 2?

Sv: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By hassebrasse - 08-02-2019 16:48

[LEGEND]

Maybe even 2 strong and 1 weak. Otherwhise there is much potential in this idea. My biggest concerns is how will this effect the market with some potential rise in quality of players? And I find it key that this information cant be hidden when a player eventually is transferlisted. Just imagine the player that is used in this exampel. With talents i speed, shooting and ball controll. Say he gets three 9's there and is transferlisted late when he's 19. In that time most players will reach the maximum potential with this system. Four camps and only focus on theese three abilitys. His value would be enormous on the market. Lets just play around and say he would sell for 4M euro without the knowledge of his key weaknes. But if potential buyers would know that he's most likely only going to reach 4-6 in stamina. His value would probebly be more in line of 2M euro. This can, and will, be abused.

goalsaurus wrote:

Reporting 3 strong skills and 3 weak skills is making everything too easy. Maybe 2 and 2? :S

Maybe even 2 strong and 1 weak. Otherwhise there is much potential in this idea.

My biggest concerns is how will this effect the market with some potential rise in quality of players?

And I find it key that this information cant be hidden when a player eventually is transferlisted.

Just imagine the player that is used in this exampel. With talents i speed, shooting and ball controll. Say he gets three 9's there and is transferlisted late when he's 19. In that time most players will reach the maximum potential with this system. Four camps and only focus on theese three abilitys.

His value would be enormous on the market. Lets just play around and say he would sell for 4M euro without the knowledge of his key weaknes. But if potential buyers would know that he's most likely only going to reach 4-6 in stamina. His value would probebly be more in line of 2M euro.

This can, and will, be abused.

Ce: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By zargan123 - 08-02-2019 16:52

[GS]

I think 3 strong and 2 weak skills are the best way. Both they're very useful and not very easy prectible. That's my opinion and suggestion.I think 3 strong and 2 weak skills are the best way. Both they're very useful and not very easy prectible. That's my opinion and suggestion.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 08-02-2019 17:02

[BFTF]

I find it key as well. Though, remember that [b]deliberately withheld information[/b] should always be a big red flag. When you see a player on the market with 5 in speed and no visible training graphs, most people will assume he is maxed and therefore his price won't be high. The same would be true of the analysis. But honestly, I think the analysis should always be visible in the market. Imo the graphs should always be visible too. It is only ever used either to trick potential buyers, or by beginners who haven't quite realized the importance of visible training graphs yet. Either way is bad.

hassebrasse wrote:

And I find it key that this information cant be hidden when a player eventually is transferlisted.

I find it key as well. Though, remember that deliberately withheld information should always be a big red flag. When you see a player on the market with 5 in speed and no visible training graphs, most people will assume he is maxed and therefore his price won't be high. The same would be true of the analysis.

But honestly, I think the analysis should always be visible in the market. Imo the graphs should always be visible too. It is only ever used either to trick potential buyers, or by beginners who haven't quite realized the importance of visible training graphs yet. Either way is bad.

Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By frony - 08-02-2019 17:04

[FALCO]

I don't understand the need to report the training efficiency of every player, this is an information that we already have and I prefer that managers learn to undestand it with experience, not like this. If you give everyone the chance to see the training graph on the market you'll give them not only the training afficiency as an info, but also you'll give them the potential and weaknesses of every player by knowing their maxings and youth campus. I don't understand why creating a new tool that gives you the same information that a free training graph could give...I don't understand the need to report the training efficiency of every player, this is an information that we already have and I prefer that managers learn to undestand it with experience, not like this.
If you give everyone the chance to see the training graph on the market you'll give them not only the training afficiency as an info, but also you'll give them the potential and weaknesses of every player by knowing their maxings and youth campus.
I don't understand why creating a new tool that gives you the same information that a free training graph could give...

Sv: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By panboy - 08-02-2019 17:35

[LEGEND]

One thought of mine is that if three star strengths of a player are tackling, speed and playing intelligence I would see him as a future defender or midfielder. Then I would first max him out on stamina and passing or cross balls to see if any of those attributes ruins him too badly. He would then be pretty bad at u-xx level but perhaps be worth a lot on the transfer market at a young age if he does well in those attributes as he will be seen as a future super player. There will be new types of young players in the market and that is interesting. Especially for managers who are in the process of saving up team money. But then again there will be more 26+ year old super players in the market to buy with that money and they will therefore be cheaper.One thought of mine is that if three star strengths of a player are tackling, speed and playing intelligence I would see him as a future defender or midfielder. Then I would first max him out on stamina and passing or cross balls to see if any of those attributes ruins him too badly. He would then be pretty bad at u-xx level but perhaps be worth a lot on the transfer market at a young age if he does well in those attributes as he will be seen as a future super player. There will be new types of young players in the market and that is interesting. Especially for managers who are in the process of saving up team money. But then again there will be more 26+ year old super players in the market to buy with that money and they will therefore be cheaper.

Sv: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By panboy - 08-02-2019 17:36

[LEGEND]

Max that player out in ball control too by the way, before starting to train him in the three stars attributes...Max that player out in ball control too by the way, before starting to train him in the three stars attributes...

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By hanzinho - 08-02-2019 20:02

[WCE]
President

You and me both [:D] It felt like I wasted a good hour of my life.

devos wrote:

Lolz, seems like every single suggestion I made, was only used to do the exact opposite. But hey, unrealistic features can be fun too... :O

You and me both :D

It felt like I wasted a good hour of my life.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 08-02-2019 22:11

[BFTF]

I appreciated the input, it was thoughtful and well put. In particcular I liked that you took my premise and built upon it rather than designing an entirely different feature. There were lots of other posters who argued a different way though, I read all posts and created a new suggestion that better resonates with the wishes of the community. @panboy: yeah, that is exactly the kind of way that you would want to use it. It becomes almost like detective work. You have some of the clues in place already - now use them to discover the players true potential as fast as possible (for instance by developing the weakness plus any crucial skills that were NOT mentioned as strengths)... OR make the best possible u18 player you can by developing the strengths first. There are lots of possibilities.

hanzinho wrote:

You and me both

It felt like I wasted a good hour of my life.

I appreciated the input, it was thoughtful and well put. In particcular I liked that you took my premise and built upon it rather than designing an entirely different feature.

There were lots of other posters who argued a different way though, I read all posts and created a new suggestion that better resonates with the wishes of the community.

@panboy: yeah, that is exactly the kind of way that you would want to use it. It becomes almost like detective work. You have some of the clues in place already - now use them to discover the players true potential as fast as possible (for instance by developing the weakness plus any crucial skills that were NOT mentioned as strengths)... OR make the best possible u18 player you can by developing the strengths first. There are lots of possibilities.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 08-02-2019 22:18

[BFTF]

And regarding the training speed... Some managers take Uxx competition very seriously. It would be of great help to them to be able to pick out fast trainers already before a player has been traded in via the exchange. Slow trainers could make great senior players, but rarely good for Uxx. That is the main reason it is included.And regarding the training speed... Some managers take Uxx competition very seriously. It would be of great help to them to be able to pick out fast trainers already before a player has been traded in via the exchange. Slow trainers could make great senior players, but rarely good for Uxx.

That is the main reason it is included.

Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By goalsaurus (LA) - 08-02-2019 22:58

[i]But hey, unrealistic features can be fun too...[/i] Why unrealistic, devos? Every football team in the world is paying salaries to observers.But hey, unrealistic features can be fun too...

Why unrealistic, devos? Every football team in the world is paying salaries to observers.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By mihairo - 09-02-2019 12:09

[-FO-]

I like it, but make it balanced. 2 strengths with 2 weaknesses or 3 strengths with 3 weaknesses. 3 stars is way better than 5 stars, because it leaves room for good weaknesses, for e.g. a 2 star weakness can turn into a 7. Also, don't make the feature free. Make it at 1k or 2k for all the players, including market players and especially other teams. We have the monitoring option already, but don't limit it to 100, make it unlimited. Only this way we can turn this feature into actual scouting. Removing the player monitoring means you are not interested in him anymore. Of course you don't get a refund.I like it, but make it balanced.
2 strengths with 2 weaknesses or 3 strengths with 3 weaknesses.
3 stars is way better than 5 stars, because it leaves room for good weaknesses, for e.g. a 2 star weakness can turn into a 7.
Also, don't make the feature free. Make it at 1k or 2k for all the players, including market players and especially other teams. We have the monitoring option already, but don't limit it to 100, make it unlimited.
Only this way we can turn this feature into actual scouting.
Removing the player monitoring means you are not interested in him anymore. Of course you don't get a refund.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By mihairo - 09-02-2019 12:18

[-FO-]

Also, have different types of scouts. For e.g. 0 star scout for free shows only training speed. 1 star scout for 10k/week shows 1 strength and 1 weakness 2 star scout for 20k/week shows 2 strengths and 2 weaknesses 3 star scout for 30k/week shows 3 strengths and 3 weaknessAlso, have different types of scouts.
For e.g.
0 star scout for free shows only training speed.
1 star scout for 10k/week shows 1 strength and 1 weakness
2 star scout for 20k/week shows 2 strengths and 2 weaknesses
3 star scout for 30k/week shows 3 strengths and 3 weakness

Ant: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By devos - 09-02-2019 12:20

[•ZONE•]
President

Scouts don't give instant feedback. They need time to observe a player. Clubs don't share their information freely with other clubs. Each club has their own scouts. Scouts don't work for free. There should be a price to pay, depending on what kind of assignment you give him. Scouts are not limited by age. They can scout any player the clubs want them to.

goalsaurus wrote:

But hey, unrealistic features can be fun too...

Why unrealistic, devos? Every football team in the world is paying salaries to observers.

Scouts don't give instant feedback. They need time to observe a player.
Clubs don't share their information freely with other clubs. Each club has their own scouts.
Scouts don't work for free. There should be a price to pay, depending on what kind of assignment you give him.
Scouts are not limited by age. They can scout any player the clubs want them to.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 09-02-2019 12:34

[BFTF]

@mihairo. Different types or skill levels of scouts is outside the scope of this feature. It is not needed since you would always go for the best scout anyway. You suggest 2 strenghts an 2 weaknesses. Actually that makes sense to me too. I will sleep on it. :) Being able to scout players from other teams is a really interesting idea. What do others think of this? (Probably wouldn't be an analyst providing the report though, maybe a "spy" of some sort?) @devos. I don't see why there should be a waiting time to get the analysis. What good does that do? It would only frustrate managers needlessly. I like your idea of scouting players of all ages. Can't think of a good reason not to allow that.@mihairo. Different types or skill levels of scouts is outside the scope of this feature. It is not needed since you would always go for the best scout anyway.

You suggest 2 strenghts an 2 weaknesses. Actually that makes sense to me too. I will sleep on it. :)

Being able to scout players from other teams is a really interesting idea. What do others think of this? (Probably wouldn't be an analyst providing the report though, maybe a "spy" of some sort?)

@devos. I don't see why there should be a waiting time to get the analysis. What good does that do? It would only frustrate managers needlessly.

I like your idea of scouting players of all ages. Can't think of a good reason not to allow that.

Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By goalsaurus (LA) - 09-02-2019 12:38

[i]Scouts don't give instant feedback. They need time to observe a player. Clubs don't share their information freely with other clubs. Each club has their own scouts.[/i] Maybe MZ scouts work as freelance and then they give their opinion once they get paid.[:)] [i]Scouts don't work for free. There should be a price to pay, depending on what kind of assignment you give him.[/i] I don't think these scouts are going to be free. [i]Scouts are not limited by age. They can scout any player the clubs want them to.[/i] I agree with you on that, but maybe we will get there one day; anyway this system is better than the previous one.Scouts don't give instant feedback. They need time to observe a player.
Clubs don't share their information freely with other clubs. Each club has their own scouts.
Maybe MZ scouts work as freelance and then they give their opinion once they get paid.

Scouts don't work for free. There should be a price to pay, depending on what kind of assignment you give him.
I don't think these scouts are going to be free.

Scouts are not limited by age. They can scout any player the clubs want them to.
I agree with you on that, but maybe we will get there one day; anyway this system is better than the previous one.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By mihairo - 09-02-2019 12:51

[-FO-]

Then use it like I described only for transfer purposes. 0 star scout for free shows only training speed. This means we can still find out the training speed without seeing the training graph. 1 star scout for 1k shows 1 strength and 1 weakness 2 star scout for 2k shows 2 strengths and 2 weaknesses 3 star scout for 3k shows 3 strengths and 3 weakness

powdersnow wrote:

@mihairo. Different types or skill levels of scouts is outside the scope of this feature. It is not needed since you would always go for the best scout anyway.

You suggest 2 strenghts an 2 weaknesses. Actually that makes sense to me too. I will sleep on it. :)

Being able to scout players from other teams is a really interesting idea. What do others think of this? (Probably wouldn't be an analyst providing the report though, maybe a "spy" of some sort?)

@devos. I don't see why there should be a waiting time to get the analysis. What good does that do? It would only frustrate managers needlessly.

I like your idea of scouting players of all ages. Can't think of a good reason not to allow that.

Then use it like I described only for transfer purposes.

0 star scout for free shows only training speed. This means we can still find out the training speed without seeing the training graph.
1 star scout for 1k shows 1 strength and 1 weakness
2 star scout for 2k shows 2 strengths and 2 weaknesses
3 star scout for 3k shows 3 strengths and 3 weakness

Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By frony - 09-02-2019 12:54

[FALCO]

I take the U18 National Cup semiseriously (third is my best result) and I exchange every youth that trains rarely at 5 (I have 10@ coaches). Don't know if what I'm doing is right or not but, as I was saying, the training efficiency is already there as an info, and I prefer that managers learn with experience, curiosity and good managerial skills to exploit it. If a manager isn't paying attention to this detail is just not as good as the others in this particular part of the game, and that's fine as it is for me. I had a youth that sometimes was training at 7 (always 10@ coaches) and did a fast camus at 17. Now he's 18 and he turned supermegaslow, he was training at 4/5 at the beginning of the campus. The tool that you're proposing what would have said about him? He was one of the fastest until yesterday and now he seems to train always in hangover [:D]

powdersnow wrote:

And regarding the training speed... Some managers take Uxx competition very seriously. It would be of great help to them to be able to pick out fast trainers already before a player has been traded in via the exchange. Slow trainers could make great senior players, but rarely good for Uxx.

That is the main reason it is included.

I take the U18 National Cup semiseriously (third is my best result) and I exchange every youth that trains rarely at 5 (I have 10@ coaches). Don't know if what I'm doing is right or not but, as I was saying, the training efficiency is already there as an info, and I prefer that managers learn with experience, curiosity and good managerial skills to exploit it. If a manager isn't paying attention to this detail is just not as good as the others in this particular part of the game, and that's fine as it is for me.

I had a youth that sometimes was training at 7 (always 10@ coaches) and did a fast camus at 17. Now he's 18 and he turned supermegaslow, he was training at 4/5 at the beginning of the campus.
The tool that you're proposing what would have said about him? He was one of the fastest until yesterday and now he seems to train always in hangover :D

Sv: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By hassebrasse - 09-02-2019 13:04

[LEGEND]

I realy hope this feature will come when you find a good balanced. And I realy like the 2/2-idea. As Panboy mentioned there will be alot of potential for diffrent tactics when it comes to how to develop a player. I would probebly go for Panboy's training tactic. The worries are still for people who dont play for results and can with hidden information about talents horde huge amount of money in, what I would call it, "scams" My suggestion for a feature that will stopp potential abuse of this system is to put the information that the youth potental analyst gives on the player profile. You could say that all requests goes trough the same analystfirm and is open for everyone to check out. And I would not be outraged if you would remove the option of hidden graphs. There are some shady deals going on daily and people are being tricked or just dont care that they getting robbed.I realy hope this feature will come when you find a good balanced. And I realy like the 2/2-idea. As Panboy mentioned there will be alot of potential for diffrent tactics when it comes to how to develop a player. I would probebly go for Panboy's training tactic. The worries are still for people who dont play for results and can with hidden information about talents horde huge amount of money in, what I would call it, "scams"

My suggestion for a feature that will stopp potential abuse of this system is to put the information that the youth potental analyst gives on the player profile.

You could say that all requests goes trough the same analystfirm and is open for everyone to check out.

And I would not be outraged if you would remove the option of hidden graphs. There are some shady deals going on daily and people are being tricked or just dont care that they getting robbed.

Ri: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By goalsaurus (LA) - 09-02-2019 13:28

[i]0 star scout for free shows only training speed. This means we can still find out the training speed without seeing the training graph. 1 star scout for 1k shows 1 strength and 1 weakness 2 star scout for 2k shows 2 strengths and 2 weaknesses 3 star scout for 3k shows 3 strengths and 3 weakness[/i] Not a bad idea, but between 1k and 3k there is no much difference, everybody will go for the third option. What about 10k to 30k?0 star scout for free shows only training speed. This means we can still find out the training speed without seeing the training graph.
1 star scout for 1k shows 1 strength and 1 weakness
2 star scout for 2k shows 2 strengths and 2 weaknesses
3 star scout for 3k shows 3 strengths and 3 weakness
Not a bad idea, but between 1k and 3k there is no much difference, everybody will go for the third option. What about 10k to 30k?

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By powdersnow (Crew) - 09-02-2019 13:36

[BFTF]

Again we will not include different levels of scouts, it doesn't improve the feature and will only complicate the game needlessly plus add high development costs. You are free to keep discussing it bit it wont happen, sorry.Again we will not include different levels of scouts, it doesn't improve the feature and will only complicate the game needlessly plus add high development costs. You are free to keep discussing it bit it wont happen, sorry.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By mihairo - 09-02-2019 13:41

[-FO-]

I always monitor 100 players. If I would pay 30k for each it means 3 mil. I believe it's way too much. And why limit to 100 players? Make the feature appealing for transfer purposes. Scout 200-300 players would still mean 500k even 1 mil. with just 3k/player.I always monitor 100 players.
If I would pay 30k for each it means 3 mil. I believe it's way too much.
And why limit to 100 players?
Make the feature appealing for transfer purposes.
Scout 200-300 players would still mean 500k even 1 mil. with just 3k/player.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By hanzinho - 09-02-2019 15:10

[WCE]
President

19 users liked the initial idea. 9 users presented their own idea. [color=red][b]4[/b][/color] users wanted a scaled down version. 5 users was against the idea altogether. [color=red][b]3[/b][/color] users wanted the feature to be very cheap / for free. 8 users wanted the feature to have a noticeable cost (anywhere from 8K EUR to 300K USD!). Powdersnow went with a scaled down version and the feature to be for free. Swedish version of democracy in 2019.19 users liked the initial idea.
9 users presented their own idea.
4 users wanted a scaled down version.
5 users was against the idea altogether.

3 users wanted the feature to be very cheap / for free.
8 users wanted the feature to have a noticeable cost (anywhere from 8K EUR to 300K USD!).

Powdersnow went with a scaled down version and the feature to be for free.
Swedish version of democracy in 2019.

Re: Youth Potential Analysis - version 2

By mihairo - 09-02-2019 15:14

[-FO-]

Hanzinho, would you pay 300k to see the strengths and weaknesses of a 16 year old? Let's say that his weaknesses are Speed and Stamina. You go to youth exchange by losing 300k.Hanzinho, would you pay 300k to see the strengths and weaknesses of a 16 year old?
Let's say that his weaknesses are Speed and Stamina.
You go to youth exchange by losing 300k.

 

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