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Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By powdersnow (Crew) - 01-02-2019 11:04

[BFTF]

I'm here bringing you an idea... and ask for your feedback and suggestions in return! Developing Youths today is heavy-handed and you are often operating in complete darkness. Wouldn't it be much more fun if you as a manager would have more insight into which of your players could actually turn out to be stars? This would reward highly active managers whilst making the Youth Exchange an even more exciting part of the game. It would save you the headache of spending lots of cash on players who turn out to be useless, and you would uncover gems much more often. This feature would be launched in both the football and the hockey game. This thread show how it would work in football: it would work in a similar way for the hockey game. No final decisions have been made yet, so you have ample opportunity to influence the functionality. Have a look: [img]https://www.managerzone.com/dynimg/pic.php?type=news&id=youth_analysis2[/img] This image is merely a first idea of what the feature might look like, so please don't kill me on the design (just yet). :) Since this is a powerful feature, we plan on offering this to all users, unlimited and for free. Club Members do not get a benefit. (It will however cost Team Money.) Know that we intend for this to make MZ more fun for those of you who like to play the long game and are prepared to put down the time and effort to develop your academy. What it should NOT be is an aid that lets you develop your academy without doing any legwork. So for those reasons this should be a light and slim feature without a lot of heavy components. [b]How it works[/b] As you can see, the basic idea is to let you know what the player will be good at and what he won't be good at. This feature is not to be confused with the current scout reports. In fact it is vastly different. Not only will it let you know up front about the talents in some key skills, it will also give you a rough idea on the future overall skills in various areas. The overall areas are: Attack: Ball Control, Shooting Defence: Tackling, Heading Physical: Speed, Stamina Playmaker: Passing, Aerial passing, Play intelligence Goalkeeping: Keeping 5 stars on an area would mean that the player can reach high ball counts in these skills. This will allow you to know that the player will be really good, but you don't yet know whether he is a truly rare talent or not. For math geeks: there will be a randomizer that allows an overlap between the different star ratings, we don't want the function to be too predictable, and no scout in the world can give exact 100% exact projections. The report will also let you know how fast the player will be able to train. We don't want to kill the mystery in the game. "Very high potential" could be a 9 or 10, but you don't know which one. When skills are listed as key strengths but with no indication to the extent of the potential... then you don't know. They are his main strengths, but they could be 10s or they could be 7s, that is for you to find out. Same goes for the player's weaknesses. However, taking into account the overall potential of the player AND his key strengths should give you a good indication as to whether the player is any good or not. Combine that with a good understanding of the transfer market and the simulator, and you as a manager has got an excellent tool for generating your own success. [b]How and when to use it[/b] You can do an analysis before trading in a new player through the Youth Exchange, but you can also get the report on any other Youth player already in your team. The cost is the same. To get the balance right, the Analysis should and will cost Team Money. As to how much -- what is your opinion? We believe that it shouldn't be too cheap. Once you have paid for an Analysis, it is yours to keep. You will always be able to access it, even when the player is old and grey. On the transfer market we would let you decide whether or not to show an Analysis, just like with the training graphs. [b]Some questions for you to think about[/b] - What do you think of the idea in general? Is it needed? Will it disrupt the balance of the game or add a fun element? - Is the idea in it's current state too powerful? Not powerful enough? What do you think? Please give me the reasons for your answer. - How can the current idea as outlined above be improved? - How much (team money) do you think the feature should cost to get the balance right? Do you think there should be a limit on how many Analyses' you can buy per season? - Anything else, let us hear it! We are open to suggestions. [i]I would like to ask you to keep answers and ideas focussed on this feature. Posts that stray too far off topic may be removed.[/i] Let's talk :)I'm here bringing you an idea... and ask for your feedback and suggestions in return!

Developing Youths today is heavy-handed and you are often operating in complete darkness. Wouldn't it be much more fun if you as a manager would have more insight into which of your players could actually turn out to be stars? This would reward highly active managers whilst making the Youth Exchange an even more exciting part of the game. It would save you the headache of spending lots of cash on players who turn out to be useless, and you would uncover gems much more often.

This feature would be launched in both the football and the hockey game. This thread show how it would work in football: it would work in a similar way for the hockey game.

No final decisions have been made yet, so you have ample opportunity to influence the functionality.

Have a look:



This image is merely a first idea of what the feature might look like, so please don't kill me on the design (just yet). :)

Since this is a powerful feature, we plan on offering this to all users, unlimited and for free. Club Members do not get a benefit. (It will however cost Team Money.)

Know that we intend for this to make MZ more fun for those of you who like to play the long game and are prepared to put down the time and effort to develop your academy. What it should NOT be is an aid that lets you develop your academy without doing any legwork. So for those reasons this should be a light and slim feature without a lot of heavy components.

How it works
As you can see, the basic idea is to let you know what the player will be good at and what he won't be good at. This feature is not to be confused with the current scout reports. In fact it is vastly different. Not only will it let you know up front about the talents in some key skills, it will also give you a rough idea on the future overall skills in various areas.

The overall areas are:
Attack: Ball Control, Shooting
Defence: Tackling, Heading
Physical: Speed, Stamina
Playmaker: Passing, Aerial passing, Play intelligence
Goalkeeping: Keeping

5 stars on an area would mean that the player can reach high ball counts in these skills. This will allow you to know that the player will be really good, but you don't yet know whether he is a truly rare talent or not. For math geeks: there will be a randomizer that allows an overlap between the different star ratings, we don't want the function to be too predictable, and no scout in the world can give exact 100% exact projections.

The report will also let you know how fast the player will be able to train.

We don't want to kill the mystery in the game. "Very high potential" could be a 9 or 10, but you don't know which one. When skills are listed as key strengths but with no indication to the extent of the potential... then you don't know. They are his main strengths, but they could be 10s or they could be 7s, that is for you to find out. Same goes for the player's weaknesses.

However, taking into account the overall potential of the player AND his key strengths should give you a good indication as to whether the player is any good or not. Combine that with a good understanding of the transfer market and the simulator, and you as a manager has got an excellent tool for generating your own success.


How and when to use it
You can do an analysis before trading in a new player through the Youth Exchange, but you can also get the report on any other Youth player already in your team. The cost is the same.

To get the balance right, the Analysis should and will cost Team Money. As to how much -- what is your opinion? We believe that it shouldn't be too cheap.

Once you have paid for an Analysis, it is yours to keep. You will always be able to access it, even when the player is old and grey.

On the transfer market we would let you decide whether or not to show an Analysis, just like with the training graphs.


Some questions for you to think about
- What do you think of the idea in general? Is it needed? Will it disrupt the balance of the game or add a fun element?
- Is the idea in it's current state too powerful? Not powerful enough? What do you think? Please give me the reasons for your answer.
- How can the current idea as outlined above be improved?
- How much (team money) do you think the feature should cost to get the balance right? Do you think there should be a limit on how many Analyses' you can buy per season?
- Anything else, let us hear it! We are open to suggestions.

I would like to ask you to keep answers and ideas focussed on this feature. Posts that stray too far off topic may be removed.

Let's talk :)

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Ce: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By deleted_8536705 - 03-02-2019 21:43

[MZCN]

Hello again -I agree that the game is not fair for Turkey.we want a little more justice about player distribution [;)] -you're too late for the infrastructure analysis system. -I like the system you told me. because the existing infrastructure system was simple and based on luck. -I'm glad to see you're finally doing something for the game.Hello again

-I agree that the game is not fair for Turkey.we want a little more justice about player distribution ;)
-you're too late for the infrastructure analysis system.
-I like the system you told me.
because the existing infrastructure system was simple and based on luck.
-I'm glad to see you're finally doing something for the game.

Beantwortet: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your op

By samooo - 04-02-2019 01:31

[AFB]

Glad to see something's being done. I also think that this feature is great, but unfortunately it doesn't address the core problems of Managerzone with its dwindling players. There are a lot of inputs - hanzinho and the downfall thread as an example. Kill 3D - then there would be some resources left again... As it is presented in powdersnow's first post, I also think it would be too strong. I think it would be a mistake to display these analyses in the transfer market as well. It would further strengthen the current tendency that only very strong players are attracting interest and so the transfer market would get even more boring. The opposite should be to aim for: normal talented players to be traded on the transfer market - as it was usual in earlier days. In order to keep the tension from training the youth, my suggestion is that only the 3 strongest skills and the 3 weakest skills are displayed (if more than 3 have the same number of final balls, the 3 which are fastest to reach are displayed). However, no indication of their quantity. So you get a well-founded idea how to train the player and about his talents on the court but don't know if he will be a mediocre player or a world star. So the tension would not suffer. I would delete the reference to the positions on the court like striker or defender. Every manager should explore the use of skills and player strengths on the pitch himself. I am also very critical about the attribute "Physical". it leaves no room for manoeuvre to think about: 1-3 stars = bad player and therefore doesn't get a training chance and 4-5 stars = good players who are trained. This is too simple and would not give the whole thing any additional attraction. But I think it's good to show the training speed. Because the training speed is not a too powerfull indicator since the differences are too little. But thats another main problem in the game who should be fixed. Youths should arrive a lot more differentiatet than now. 90 % of all young players are currently almost identical - which makes it very boring. The total number of balls at arrival should be in a larger range, between 15 and 35 balls. In addition, the distribution of the individual balls should be much more exciting. Why should never a young player at 16 years have 8 balls in a skill? What you could also consider is to increase the endurance of yoths on average by 2 balls. Its not unrealistic that a 16 year old already has a reasonable endurance ... that the experience should grow twice as fast is long overdue. In the first years a much bigger progress should be possible - and also a much bigger difference between players who train slower and others who train faster. All in all, the goal must be that players around 23 can finally belong to the world class, in exceptional cases even younger players. Others don't reach their peak of play until the age 30. Individuality should be the focus! This is realistic and creates much more depth for the game. The more decisions and considerations should be made when hirin new youth the more tension is generated in growing the youth. Not just about the number of balls now and in maximum, thats just too simple again and not really exciting Since I see the feature rather as an update to the current and hardly usable scout report, I would not set the price per scouting too high. About 15 000 USD - because the new report would be a lot more valuable than the current one. I wouldn't limit it under any circumstances...that would also stop the individualization of the teams. Thanks for your work and the dialogue with us users!Glad to see something's being done.

I also think that this feature is great, but unfortunately it doesn't address the core problems of Managerzone with its dwindling players.
There are a lot of inputs - hanzinho and the downfall thread as an example.
Kill 3D - then there would be some resources left again...


As it is presented in powdersnow's first post, I also think it would be too strong. I think it would be a mistake to display these analyses in the transfer market as well. It would further strengthen the current tendency that only very strong players are attracting interest and so the transfer market would get even more boring. The opposite should be to aim for: normal talented players to be traded on the transfer market - as it was usual in earlier days.

In order to keep the tension from training the youth, my suggestion is that only the 3 strongest skills and the 3 weakest skills are displayed (if more than 3 have the same number of final balls, the 3 which are fastest to reach are displayed). However, no indication of their quantity. So you get a well-founded idea how to train the player and about his talents on the court but don't know if he will be a mediocre player or a world star. So the tension would not suffer.


I would delete the reference to the positions on the court like striker or defender. Every manager should explore the use of skills and player strengths on the pitch himself. I am also very critical about the attribute "Physical". it leaves no room for manoeuvre to think about: 1-3 stars = bad player and therefore doesn't get a training chance and 4-5 stars = good players who are trained. This is too simple and would not give the whole thing any additional attraction.

But I think it's good to show the training speed. Because the training speed is not a too powerfull indicator since the differences are too little. But thats another main problem in the game who should be fixed. Youths should arrive a lot more differentiatet than now. 90 % of all young players are currently almost identical - which makes it very boring. The total number of balls at arrival should be in a larger range, between 15 and 35 balls. In addition, the distribution of the individual balls should be much more exciting. Why should never a young player at 16 years have 8 balls in a skill? What you could also consider is to increase the endurance of yoths on average by 2 balls. Its not unrealistic that a 16 year old already has a reasonable endurance ...
that the experience should grow twice as fast is long overdue. In the first years a much bigger progress should be possible - and also a much bigger difference between players who train slower and others who train faster.
All in all, the goal must be that players around 23 can finally belong to the world class, in exceptional cases even younger players. Others don't reach their peak of play until the age 30. Individuality should be the focus!
This is realistic and creates much more depth for the game. The more decisions and considerations should be made when hirin new youth the more tension is generated in growing the youth. Not just about the number of balls now and in maximum, thats just too simple again and not really exciting


Since I see the feature rather as an update to the current and hardly usable scout report, I would not set the price per scouting too high. About 15 000 USD - because the new report would be a lot more valuable than the current one. I wouldn't limit it under any circumstances...that would also stop the individualization of the teams.


Thanks for your work and the dialogue with us users!

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By brabuz (LA) - 04-02-2019 02:35

[MIC]

Great idea for manager who development youthsGreat idea for manager who development youths

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By aemi - 04-02-2019 04:26

[Canada]

@powder, it this is to be implemented, when do you think it will kick in? Next Season?@powder, it this is to be implemented, when do you think it will kick in? Next Season?

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By mihairo - 04-02-2019 06:42

[-FO-]

Why not just have faster training? Make the youths better. I would like to see 21-22 year olds ready for the senior team. I don't know about you, but most of my 24 year olds receive TC, because most of the times they don't reach 65 balls. Until the age of 23 they receive 8 TCs and they are still not good enough. My second question is why can't we have scout reports for all our youths? And make it visible even on the Transfer Market. It's simple. Scout report, then no more YTC. Also, I don't understand. Why pay 50k for the scout report? I really don't understand. You made the youths TCs free for what? Pay triple for a scout report. You want to encourage people to grow youths? I don't know if this is the right way. The 18-19 year olds are simply too weak. Most of the managers grow youths only for profit. They don't keep them. It's too much bother. Make the training faster. I would agree to pay for training analisys but only if we get rid of TCs entirely.Why not just have faster training?
Make the youths better.
I would like to see 21-22 year olds ready for the senior team. I don't know about you, but most of my 24 year olds receive TC, because most of the times they don't reach 65 balls.
Until the age of 23 they receive 8 TCs and they are still not good enough.
My second question is why can't we have scout reports for all our youths?
And make it visible even on the Transfer Market.
It's simple. Scout report, then no more YTC.
Also, I don't understand. Why pay 50k for the scout report? I really don't understand.
You made the youths TCs free for what? Pay triple for a scout report. You want to encourage people to grow youths? I don't know if this is the right way.
The 18-19 year olds are simply too weak.
Most of the managers grow youths only for profit. They don't keep them. It's too much bother.
Make the training faster.
I would agree to pay for training analisys but only if we get rid of TCs entirely.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By mihairo - 04-02-2019 07:07

[-FO-]

And another thing. There are too many superplayers in MZ. That's so unrealistic. I think the analysis shows us the potential of superplayers. The Transfer Market is suffering because everyone is looking for +16 balls in physics with shooting/tackling +9. The players with 7 on speed or stamina have no value most of the times, not to mention a maxed 5 or 6 on control. Because of the huge amount of players with 18-20 balls on physics, most of the 30 year olds are sold. This is also unrealistic. You want to make it interesting? Give all the players a 9 or 10 skill potential. Make the manager discover it. But that doesn't necessarily mean speed or stamina. Maybe keeping, control, PI, passing, cross or heading. I agree that superplayers are fun, but keep it at 20 world wide. Make it a managerial decision if the owner wants to keep him or sell him. If he does decide to sell him, it should be top news.And another thing. There are too many superplayers in MZ. That's so unrealistic.
I think the analysis shows us the potential of superplayers.
The Transfer Market is suffering because everyone is looking for +16 balls in physics with shooting/tackling +9. The players with 7 on speed or stamina have no value most of the times, not to mention a maxed 5 or 6 on control.
Because of the huge amount of players with 18-20 balls on physics, most of the 30 year olds are sold. This is also unrealistic.
You want to make it interesting?
Give all the players a 9 or 10 skill potential. Make the manager discover it. But that doesn't necessarily mean speed or stamina. Maybe keeping, control, PI, passing, cross or heading.
I agree that superplayers are fun, but keep it at 20 world wide.
Make it a managerial decision if the owner wants to keep him or sell him. If he does decide to sell him, it should be top news.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By mihairo - 04-02-2019 07:15

[-FO-]

And sorry for my triple posting. I little transparency wouldn't harm anyone. At least the overall skills. This would intrigue the managers and potential buyers. This way we can see the Top Players not only by value. This would help the NCs as well. But, like I said, players with +85 balls should be around 20 world wide.And sorry for my triple posting. I little transparency wouldn't harm anyone. At least the overall skills.
This would intrigue the managers and potential buyers.
This way we can see the Top Players not only by value. This would help the NCs as well. But, like I said, players with +85 balls should be around 20 world wide.

Ri: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By goalsaurus (LA) - 04-02-2019 09:19

I don't know. Using money to see potential skill will benefit the richest players, which means those who are playing longer in the game, which means increasing difficulties for new players. [u]Is it what we want?[/u] @samoo: [b]kill 3D = kill the game. 3D is probably the only thing the Crew should be working on.[/b] And speaking of that, why not implementing [b]3D trainings[/b]? Suppose you want to see how your players while they are training in speed, you click on a button and you actually see them running on the field while a stopwatch keeps track of time to measure their progress. Wouldn't that be great?I don't know. Using money to see potential skill will benefit the richest players, which means those who are playing longer in the game, which means increasing difficulties for new players. Is it what we want?

@samoo: kill 3D = kill the game. 3D is probably the only thing the Crew should be working on. And speaking of that, why not implementing 3D trainings? Suppose you want to see how your players while they are training in speed, you click on a button and you actually see them running on the field while a stopwatch keeps track of time to measure their progress. Wouldn't that be great?

Ri: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By goalsaurus (LA) - 04-02-2019 09:26

@mihairo: I think trainings should be more realistics. [b]Every day every player should be able to train in more skills, but maybe slower.[/b] We, the managers, shouldn't even be able to see the skills, but only the results of trainings, add this to the 3D trainings I was writing above, and you'll have something very close to real life. [:)]@mihairo: I think trainings should be more realistics. Every day every player should be able to train in more skills, but maybe slower. We, the managers, shouldn't even be able to see the skills, but only the results of trainings, add this to the 3D trainings I was writing above, and you'll have something very close to real life.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By mihairo - 04-02-2019 10:22

[-FO-]

I agree. Train 3 skills like in TC, but without TC. How can we accept the notion that a player can train speed 10 with stamina 1 or 2 or shoot/tackle 10 with control and PI 1 or cross 10 with passing 1? I would accept the idea of TC, but only for youths. Once a player reached the age of 18, he should be able to play, not TC after TC. Look at RL football. The best players are U23 and some of them play for Top teams at the age of 17.I agree. Train 3 skills like in TC, but without TC.
How can we accept the notion that a player can train speed 10 with stamina 1 or 2 or shoot/tackle 10 with control and PI 1 or cross 10 with passing 1?
I would accept the idea of TC, but only for youths. Once a player reached the age of 18, he should be able to play, not TC after TC.
Look at RL football. The best players are U23 and some of them play for Top teams at the age of 17.

Ri: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By goalsaurus (LA) - 04-02-2019 11:10

Yes, I will also get rid of TC in order to make things simpler.Yes, I will also get rid of TC in order to make things simpler.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By franella82 - 04-02-2019 11:18

[CBA-MZ]

The speed training is fine for me. Most of 23/24 years players are well skilled to play, but he havent enough experience to play in the senior level, thats really unrealistic. Why we have to sell our youth players and buy +27 players to be competitive?The speed training is fine for me. Most of 23/24 years players are well skilled to play, but he havent enough experience to play in the senior level, thats really unrealistic.

Why we have to sell our youth players and buy +27 players to be competitive?

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By franella82 - 04-02-2019 11:22

[CBA-MZ]

Also, small nations have good 23 to 25 years players to play in the National team but the experience isnt accurate. That factor only benefits large communities like Argentina.Also, small nations have good 23 to 25 years players to play in the National team but the experience isnt accurate. That factor only benefits large communities like Argentina.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By franella82 - 04-02-2019 11:27

[CBA-MZ]

Furthermore MZ is the only game that I know where is more possitive not play seriously for your team finances. If you play to win trophies, you lose money every season, but if you train 40/50 youths without play only focusing in market you Will obtain a little fortune in 4/5 seasons, this kind of changes only benefits that kind of teams.Furthermore MZ is the only game that I know where is more possitive not play seriously for your team finances.

If you play to win trophies, you lose money every season, but if you train 40/50 youths without play only focusing in market you Will obtain a little fortune in 4/5 seasons, this kind of changes only benefits that kind of teams.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By mihairo - 04-02-2019 11:40

[-FO-]

[b]Edited. Please keep your posts on topic. Thanks. :) //powdersnow[/b]Edited. Please keep your posts on topic. Thanks. :) //powdersnow

Edited: 04-02-2019 14:15
Total edits: 1

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By powdersnow (Crew) - 04-02-2019 14:23

[BFTF]

Let's not talk training speed here. There is a place and time to discuss that, but we will have a better chance of reaching consensus on the Analysis/Scout feature if we stay on topic. There are lots of good feedback here to digest. My plan is to come back with an updated suggestion in 1-2 days time, I will most likely open up a new thread so we can have a fresh discussion at that point. But in the meantime please continue talking, I'll check back here for inspiration. Thanks for helping us make MZ better!Let's not talk training speed here. There is a place and time to discuss that, but we will have a better chance of reaching consensus on the Analysis/Scout feature if we stay on topic.

There are lots of good feedback here to digest. My plan is to come back with an updated suggestion in 1-2 days time, I will most likely open up a new thread so we can have a fresh discussion at that point. But in the meantime please continue talking, I'll check back here for inspiration. Thanks for helping us make MZ better!

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By mihairo - 04-02-2019 14:34

[-FO-]

Thank you for that. Good talk. Regards.Thank you for that.
Good talk.
Regards.

Ri: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By chriscus - 04-02-2019 15:44

Ok, I did read only few comments because I want to express my own opinion without being influenced... The idea is extremely interesting and worth to help a bit with the youth academy, which as we all know is extremely random nowadays and often it takes long time to discover that the player is just average. Totally agree that can help and anyway is not giving you full awareness, stars don’t indicate detailed skills so it’s still keeping some uncertainty... Fair enough available for all and I think should be unlimited, at least we can check all the players if we really want to push the academy and have money to spend, for sure the result will bring better academies, less waste of time and possibly more revenue on market selling good players and not the scarse ones we don’t want to keep. Indeed though there will be more choice... Regarding the cost, I agree must be reasonable but not super cheap, therefore something like few thousand euros should be fair, it’s much more useful than the current system. Overall we should gphave better players and more managerial ability in being smart and efficient to train range of youth and then able to resell them or to assemble the team properly. Great new idea, hope will come out well!Ok, I did read only few comments because I want to express my own opinion without being influenced...
The idea is extremely interesting and worth to help a bit with the youth academy, which as we all know is extremely random nowadays and often it takes long time to discover that the player is just average. Totally agree that can help and anyway is not giving you full awareness, stars don’t indicate detailed skills so it’s still keeping some uncertainty...
Fair enough available for all and I think should be unlimited, at least we can check all the players if we really want to push the academy and have money to spend, for sure the result will bring better academies, less waste of time and possibly more revenue on market selling good players and not the scarse ones we don’t want to keep.
Indeed though there will be more choice...
Regarding the cost, I agree must be reasonable but not super cheap, therefore something like few thousand euros should be fair, it’s much more useful than the current system.
Overall we should gphave better players and more managerial ability in being smart and efficient to train range of youth and then able to resell them or to assemble the team properly.
Great new idea, hope will come out well!

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By powdersnow (Crew) - 04-02-2019 16:46

[BFTF]

It would be at the start of a season. Could well be at the start of this upcoming season if we can agree on a design, and that design isn't too wide in scope.

aemi wrote:

@powder, it this is to be implemented, when do you think it will kick in? Next Season?

It would be at the start of a season. Could well be at the start of this upcoming season if we can agree on a design, and that design isn't too wide in scope.

Ant: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By mwosle (FA) - 04-02-2019 16:47

[DISCLL]

I agree. Training speed is good as it is. However, I think we do not need this tool but a higher amount off skills at the age of 16, when they start at the academy. I read that a lot of managers are complaining about U25 players who are not competitive. This would be a proper solution, I think. Players would reach their maximum potential at the age of 26-27. The only difference between U25 and U30's would be their experience, as it should be. As a mentioned before. Existing players should be offered a condition camp to compensate the lack of skills. Higher starting skills means you find the maxings (=potential) of your players a lot faster. After 10 new balls (+/- 1 season) you can find out how good your player is. Especially when you've sent the player on a YTC. No development of a new tool needed, just some finetuning the existing settings on starting skills. Great advantage: new managers, who don't have the money, do not have to pay for the scout report. They will be introduced into the game and wil be competitive a lot quicker. For example [img]https://i.snag.gy/nJN2X8.jpg[/img]

powdersnow wrote:

Let's not talk training speed here. There is a place and time to discuss that, but we will have a better chance of reaching consensus on the Analysis/Scout feature if we stay on topic.

I agree.
Training speed is good as it is. However, I think we do not need this tool but a higher amount off skills at the age of 16, when they start at the academy.

I read that a lot of managers are complaining about U25 players who are not competitive. This would be a proper solution, I think. Players would reach their maximum potential at the age of 26-27. The only difference between U25 and U30's would be their experience, as it should be.
As a mentioned before. Existing players should be offered a condition camp to compensate the lack of skills.

Higher starting skills means you find the maxings (=potential) of your players a lot faster. After 10 new balls (+/- 1 season) you can find out how good your player is. Especially when you've sent the player on a YTC.

No development of a new tool needed, just some finetuning the existing settings on starting skills.

Great advantage: new managers, who don't have the money, do not have to pay for the scout report. They will be introduced into the game and wil be competitive a lot quicker.

For example

Ri: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By goalsaurus (LA) - 04-02-2019 17:55

Ok, here's my answers: [b]- What do you think of the idea in general?[/b] Not particularly against, but not in favor. [b]Is it needed?[/b] I don't think so, we can just improve the scout. [b]Will it disrupt the balance of the game or add a fun element?[/b] Probably both of them. [b]- Is the idea in it's current state too powerful? Not powerful enough? What do you think? Please give me the reasons for your answer.[/b] I think it's too powerful if you are going to keep the scout. I also agree with people saying it will reduce the randomness. [b]- How can the current idea as outlined above be improved?[/b] Cancel the scout, I really can't see the difference between the two. [b]- How much (team money) do you think the feature should cost to get the balance right?[/b] No idea, but the more expensive they are, the more problems poor managers will have. [b]Do you think there should be a limit on how many Analyses' you can buy per season?[/b] Probably yes. [b]- Anything else, let us hear it! We are open to suggestions.[/b] Connect it with a special trainer. [u]The analyst, Howard, should have a proper salary and sometimes, with no forewarning, should give you one of those review, not only about young players, but also about players in the market[/u] and, just like in real life, he should be allowed to make mistakes.Ok, here's my answers:
- What do you think of the idea in general?
Not particularly against, but not in favor.
Is it needed?
I don't think so, we can just improve the scout.
Will it disrupt the balance of the game or add a fun element?
Probably both of them.
- Is the idea in it's current state too powerful? Not powerful enough? What do you think? Please give me the reasons for your answer.
I think it's too powerful if you are going to keep the scout. I also agree with people saying it will reduce the randomness.
- How can the current idea as outlined above be improved?
Cancel the scout, I really can't see the difference between the two.
- How much (team money) do you think the feature should cost to get the balance right?
No idea, but the more expensive they are, the more problems poor managers will have.
Do you think there should be a limit on how many Analyses' you can buy per season?
Probably yes.
- Anything else, let us hear it! We are open to suggestions.
Connect it with a special trainer. The analyst, Howard, should have a proper salary and sometimes, with no forewarning, should give you one of those review, not only about young players, but also about players in the market and, just like in real life, he should be allowed to make mistakes.

Ri: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By goalsaurus (LA) - 04-02-2019 18:18

Speaking about managerial vs randomness. [b]What if we, the managers, have to choose between a market analysis and a young player one?[/b] Howard, the analyst, will knock at your door asking us what report we want and we will have to answer, so he will come back after a couple of days with a report about a player in the market or about one of our young players. The player could either be choosen by us or a random one.Speaking about managerial vs randomness. What if we, the managers, have to choose between a market analysis and a young player one? Howard, the analyst, will knock at your door asking us what report we want and we will have to answer, so he will come back after a couple of days with a report about a player in the market or about one of our young players. The player could either be choosen by us or a random one.

Ant: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By devos - 04-02-2019 22:56

[•ZONE•]
President

I’ve read a lot of good ideas in this topic, but many of them need drastic changes in the game itself. As powdersnow already mentioned, that’s not what the crew is aiming for. Therefor I believe it’s more useful to explore the current idea and to make it as good as possible. [b]My opinion on adding this feature?[/b] I think it’s a great idea. I’m strongly in favor of adding more information in the game. Why? Because I hate putting all my time, effort and money in a player only to find out that he’s maxed at 6 speed. Especially because there is no way you can anticipate on that. This feature could give you a general idea of the player’s potential and this could stop unpleasant surprises from occurring frequently. At least, now you could have the possibility to prepare yourself for bad (and good) news. [b]A couple of things to pay attention to when adding something new:[/b] [u]Don’t kill the game[/u] As you already mentioned, when implementing something like this, it’s extremely important to add some kind of randomness to the mix. Otherwise, the managers would calculate way too much and only the best talents would become senior in the end. That could destroy the game. [u]Don’t kill the market[/u] Limit the use of this feature, to avoid the market from being flooded with football geniuses. The supply of talented players should stay about the same. [u]Make it appealing for new users and poor managers[/u] The rich always get richer, so make sure they don’t get all the benefit out of this feature. Making it available for all managers is the best you can do. No CM or PT, please! Don’t make the feature too expensive because it might be too powerful! Just turn it around. Make it cheap, but not too powerful and put a system in play that might convince the rich managers to spend it all. If they do, I might win a trophy one day... [u]Make it simple[/u] Don’t overcomplicate the new feature. Simplify the look, but make sure there’s enough quality, to avoid spooking the new users. [u]Make it look “REAL”[/u] Ok, I know I’m playing an online football manager game. I know it’s not real, but please make it as real as possible. Think about how scouting works in real life and try to translate it to some bits and bytes. For sure, hiring scouts and sending them on a mission, just like in FIFA 19 career mode, would be great. You could implement a system like the current trainer-system, but as already mentioned, crew doesn’t want to make too many adjustments to the game. And I believe, not many managers would like a copy of the trainer-system. [b]My suggestion on how to put all the above together:[/b] Each manager has access to their team-scout. He can only scout one player at a time and he can only scout each player once per season. This scout can investigate the 6 domains as shown by powdersnow. (attack, defence, physical, playmaker, goalkeeping, training speed) The manager choses how many days to send out his scout (and on what domains) for each player. 1 day – cost = 10k – 1 random domain (just my idea, but doesn’t have to be random) 2 days – cost = 20k – 2 random domains 3 days – cost = 30k – 3 random domains 4 days – cost = 40k – 4 domains of which 3 random and 1 by choice 5 days – cost = 50k – 5 domains of which 3 random and 2 by choice 6 days – cost = 60k – all 6 domains + overall assessment 7 days – cost = 70k – all 6 domains + overall assessment + key strengths and weaknesses (7th day is optional for me, because I’m not a fan of the strengths and weaknesses) Scouts in real life get more information if they scout for a longer time, but they have to get paid during that time… If a manager decides to use his team-scout non-stop on 7 day trips, then this would result in the following figures: 13 players scouted (or 16 if you remove the 7th day) 910k spent Pricy, but still affordable if you use your scout every now and then. For managers that believe 13 scoutings is not enough, you can implement the following system... Give them the possibility to send a second ‘hired’ freelance scout. These scouts have a higher cost. For example: Scout 2: 1 day – cost = 15k 2 days – cost = 30k etc… Scout 3: 1 day – cost = 20k 2 days – cost = 40k etc… This way, managers can decide to use the scout more often, but they will have to pay for their services. That's my vision on this feature.I’ve read a lot of good ideas in this topic, but many of them need drastic changes in the game itself. As powdersnow already mentioned, that’s not what the crew is aiming for. Therefor I believe it’s more useful to explore the current idea and to make it as good as possible.

My opinion on adding this feature?

I think it’s a great idea. I’m strongly in favor of adding more information in the game. Why? Because I hate putting all my time, effort and money in a player only to find out that he’s maxed at 6 speed. Especially because there is no way you can anticipate on that. This feature could give you a general idea of the player’s potential and this could stop unpleasant surprises from occurring frequently. At least, now you could have the possibility to prepare yourself for bad (and good) news.


A couple of things to pay attention to when adding something new:

Don’t kill the game
As you already mentioned, when implementing something like this, it’s extremely important to add some kind of randomness to the mix. Otherwise, the managers would calculate way too much and only the best talents would become senior in the end. That could destroy the game.

Don’t kill the market
Limit the use of this feature, to avoid the market from being flooded with football geniuses. The supply of talented players should stay about the same.

Make it appealing for new users and poor managers
The rich always get richer, so make sure they don’t get all the benefit out of this feature. Making it available for all managers is the best you can do. No CM or PT, please! Don’t make the feature too expensive because it might be too powerful! Just turn it around. Make it cheap, but not too powerful and put a system in play that might convince the rich managers to spend it all. If they do, I might win a trophy one day...

Make it simple
Don’t overcomplicate the new feature. Simplify the look, but make sure there’s enough quality, to avoid spooking the new users.

Make it look “REAL”
Ok, I know I’m playing an online football manager game. I know it’s not real, but please make it as real as possible. Think about how scouting works in real life and try to translate it to some bits and bytes. For sure, hiring scouts and sending them on a mission, just like in FIFA 19 career mode, would be great. You could implement a system like the current trainer-system, but as already mentioned, crew doesn’t want to make too many adjustments to the game. And I believe, not many managers would like a copy of the trainer-system.


My suggestion on how to put all the above together:

Each manager has access to their team-scout.
He can only scout one player at a time and he can only scout each player once per season.

This scout can investigate the 6 domains as shown by powdersnow.
(attack, defence, physical, playmaker, goalkeeping, training speed)

The manager choses how many days to send out his scout (and on what domains) for each player.

1 day – cost = 10k – 1 random domain (just my idea, but doesn’t have to be random)
2 days – cost = 20k – 2 random domains
3 days – cost = 30k – 3 random domains
4 days – cost = 40k – 4 domains of which 3 random and 1 by choice
5 days – cost = 50k – 5 domains of which 3 random and 2 by choice
6 days – cost = 60k – all 6 domains + overall assessment
7 days – cost = 70k – all 6 domains + overall assessment + key strengths and weaknesses
(7th day is optional for me, because I’m not a fan of the strengths and weaknesses)

Scouts in real life get more information if they scout for a longer time, but they have to get paid during that time…

If a manager decides to use his team-scout non-stop on 7 day trips, then this would result in the following figures:
13 players scouted (or 16 if you remove the 7th day)
910k spent
Pricy, but still affordable if you use your scout every now and then.

For managers that believe 13 scoutings is not enough, you can implement the following system...

Give them the possibility to send a second ‘hired’ freelance scout. These scouts have a higher cost.

For example:

Scout 2:
1 day – cost = 15k
2 days – cost = 30k
etc…

Scout 3:
1 day – cost = 20k
2 days – cost = 40k
etc…

This way, managers can decide to use the scout more often, but they will have to pay for their services.

That's my vision on this feature.

Ant: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By devos - 06-02-2019 07:42

[•ZONE•]
President

Things I wouldn't do: - Handing out a scout-report immedietly. There's not a scout in the world that can evaluate a player in 2 seconds. Make sure it takes a few days to get back with a result. - Showing the scout-report on the transfer market. In real life, club-scouts don't often share their information. Neither should the mz-scouts. - Limiting the scout-report to youth-only. Make it possible for managers to scout older players too. This is less useful, but it might reveal the real potential of a player you bought on the market. - Adding the strengths and weaknesses. I believe this might make it overpowered. Just the star-rating should be enough to make an in depth analyses of your players. My previous suggestion has a little flaw. In this scenario, I don't believe many people would chose 1, 2 or 3 days to scout. Therefor, version 2.0. 1 day – cost = 10k – 1 random domain 2 days – cost = 20k – 1 domain by choice 3 days – cost = 30k – 1 random domain and 1 by choice 4 days – cost = 40k – 2 random domains and 1 by choice 5 days – cost = 50k – 2 random domains and 2 by choice 6 days – cost = 60k – 3 random domains and 2 by choice 7 days – cost = 70k – all 6 domains + overall assessment Or something like that..Things I wouldn't do:

- Handing out a scout-report immedietly. There's not a scout in the world that can evaluate a player in 2 seconds. Make sure it takes a few days to get back with a result.
- Showing the scout-report on the transfer market. In real life, club-scouts don't often share their information. Neither should the mz-scouts.
- Limiting the scout-report to youth-only. Make it possible for managers to scout older players too. This is less useful, but it might reveal the real potential of a player you bought on the market.
- Adding the strengths and weaknesses. I believe this might make it overpowered. Just the star-rating should be enough to make an in depth analyses of your players.

My previous suggestion has a little flaw. In this scenario, I don't believe many people would chose 1, 2 or 3 days to scout. Therefor, version 2.0.

1 day – cost = 10k – 1 random domain
2 days – cost = 20k – 1 domain by choice
3 days – cost = 30k – 1 random domain and 1 by choice
4 days – cost = 40k – 2 random domains and 1 by choice
5 days – cost = 50k – 2 random domains and 2 by choice
6 days – cost = 60k – 3 random domains and 2 by choice
7 days – cost = 70k – all 6 domains + overall assessment

Or something like that..

Ce: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By deleted_8536705 - 06-02-2019 08:32

[MZCN]

*in real life, an 18-year-old player can play on a team. *we can understand that the players of the infrastructure in real life are stars at the age of 15. we need to understand this in this game. *it's silly to see the player when he turns 20, or when he's a star, or when he's trash. *analysis fee should be something like 5k. *players can be analyzed until the age of 23. *also 16-year-old features should not be so low. *a new update should be made as soon as possible. Good Games...*in real life, an 18-year-old player can play on a team.
*we can understand that the players of the infrastructure in real life are stars at the age of 15.
we need to understand this in this game.
*it's silly to see the player when he turns 20, or when he's a star, or when he's trash.
*analysis fee should be something like 5k.
*players can be analyzed until the age of 23.
*also 16-year-old features should not be so low.
*a new update should be made as soon as possible.
Good Games...

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By logan_00 - 06-02-2019 12:05

[FGALMZ]

Hi guys, I think it is a good idea to show more information on the capabilities of the young players that you receive. It's very frustrating to invest loads of money in players that you are not going to be able to sell even for £1. The only suggestion I can make is that the report should not be seen in the market. If you can, only the best players will be sold, and you will have even more "wasted" players.Hi guys,

I think it is a good idea to show more information on the capabilities of the young players that you receive. It's very frustrating to invest loads of money in players that you are not going to be able to sell even for £1.

The only suggestion I can make is that the report should not be seen in the market. If you can, only the best players will be sold, and you will have even more "wasted" players.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By aldebaran - 06-02-2019 12:38

how about you introduce a new system of youth selection/customization? you get to use Howard in the first week of the season (before new default youth players arrive in the club) you have a certain amount of points to allocate them in certain fields/skills of expertise Howard procures X amount of youths that are flagged as LOYAL and their skills roughly match the criteria you've set up on Howard's form (point allocation) LOYAL means that this feature won't be exploited in the transfer market and also at age 32 they will retire (no super players playing until they decide to retire at 38) add a token paid tour for managers to get some extra allocation points balance the total amount of points to be allocated and the cost for using Howard (per youth) (or limit the amount of times Howard can be used per season) With that, managers can "influence" what kind of youth arrives in their academies; the market won't be influenced too much (prices might fall (or won't if you limit the amount of times Howard can be used) but won't go upwards because you won't be able to sell those LOYALS) This doesn't make Howard less powerful to use, but at least (imo) it limits potential problems with the transfer market and unlawful usage between those pesky (current or future) multi team usershow about you introduce a new system of youth selection/customization?

you get to use Howard in the first week of the season (before new default youth players arrive in the club)

you have a certain amount of points to allocate them in certain fields/skills of expertise

Howard procures X amount of youths that are flagged as LOYAL and their skills roughly match the criteria you've set up on Howard's form (point allocation)

LOYAL means that this feature won't be exploited in the transfer market
and also at age 32 they will retire (no super players playing until they decide to retire at 38)

add a token paid tour for managers to get some extra allocation points

balance the total amount of points to be allocated and the cost for using Howard (per youth) (or limit the amount of times Howard can be used per season)

With that, managers can "influence" what kind of youth arrives in their academies;

the market won't be influenced too much (prices might fall (or won't if you limit the amount of times Howard can be used) but won't go upwards because you won't be able to sell those LOYALS)

This doesn't make Howard less powerful to use, but at least (imo) it limits potential problems with the transfer market and unlawful usage between those pesky (current or future) multi team users

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By elresorte - 06-02-2019 22:11

[✪ FX ✪]

I agree with everything you said. [image url=http://i.imgur.com/Q3B4Dqz.gif][image url=http://i.imgur.com/Q3B4Dqz.gif][image url=http://i.imgur.com/Q3B4Dqz.gif]

mwosle wrote:

I agree.
Training speed is good as it is. However, I think we do not need this tool but a higher amount off skills at the age of 16, when they start at the academy.

I read that a lot of managers are complaining about U25 players who are not competitive. This would be a proper solution, I think. Players would reach their maximum potential at the age of 26-27. The only difference between U25 and U30's would be their experience, as it should be.
As a mentioned before. Existing players should be offered a condition camp to compensate the lack of skills.

Higher starting skills means you find the maxings (=potential) of your players a lot faster. After 10 new balls (+/- 1 season) you can find out how good your player is. Especially when you've sent the player on a YTC.

No development of a new tool needed, just some finetuning the existing settings on starting skills.

Great advantage: new managers, who don't have the money, do not have to pay for the scout report. They will be introduced into the game and wil be competitive a lot quicker.

For example

I agree with everything you said.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By papa_17 - 08-02-2019 14:10

[AEK]

great!!! I want this innovation now!!

elresorte wrote:

I agree with everything you said.

great!!!

I want this innovation now!!

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By powdersnow (Crew) - 08-02-2019 14:28

[BFTF]

Those of you who advocate more starting balls for Youths, how do you propose we make that switch (in practical terms)? Let's say we make the switch next season (hypothetically). Then all new 16-year-olds would be much better than the 17yo's of last season. Even if we were to introduce it very slowly over several seasons, it would lead to a situation where you would have virtually no reason to start up an academy since next season's youths will be better anyway. MZ would become either a very boring game for a large number of seasons, or suddenly very chaotic. I am not sure it is worth it.Those of you who advocate more starting balls for Youths, how do you propose we make that switch (in practical terms)?

Let's say we make the switch next season (hypothetically). Then all new 16-year-olds would be much better than the 17yo's of last season. Even if we were to introduce it very slowly over several seasons, it would lead to a situation where you would have virtually no reason to start up an academy since next season's youths will be better anyway. MZ would become either a very boring game for a large number of seasons, or suddenly very chaotic. I am not sure it is worth it.

Ant: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By mwosle (FA) - 08-02-2019 15:01

[DISCLL]

I certainly understand your concern. As a mentioned before. Existing players should be offered a condition camp to compensate the lack of skills. I believe this happened once before. The main reasons I suggested this are: - stimulate competitiveness of new managers - extend the amount of years a player can be used in your squad. I really thing it would be more realistic. You could introduce this in several fases, indeed. Starting with 6-8 ball upgrade of youths and a 1ste condition camp of existing players. The second season you introduce a second upgrade of 6-8 ball for the 16y-old, + an additional CC for all existing players (including 17y old). Finally in the 3th season, the 3th upgrade + CC comes.) This would create an overall upgrade for starting youths off 16-21 balls, plus minus. Other effects: - crappy players will have more balls at the age of 21 and 23, and therefore become handy for Uxx competitions whilst in the old system, we would've get rid of them already. - this might mean that these type of players also get a certain market value, despite early maxings in SP-ST and headskils. I'm open to any kind of critics to this suggestion. I also like to mention that I like the updated version a little more, but still think it makes it far to easy to select only good players from you academy. I like the charm of the game were not all youths are new football gods. My suggestion would save these guys from becoming a Sunday league player only, but give them the chance to shine thanks to their all-roundness.

powdersnow wrote:

Those of you who advocate more starting balls for Youths, how do you propose we make that switch (in practical terms)?

Let's say we make the switch next season (hypothetically). Then all new 16-year-olds would be much better than the 17yo's of last season. Even if we were to introduce it very slowly over several seasons, it would lead to a situation where you would have virtually no reason to start up an academy since next season's youths will be better anyway. MZ would become either a very boring game for a large number of seasons, or suddenly very chaotic. I am not sure it is worth it.

I certainly understand your concern.

As a mentioned before. Existing players should be offered a condition camp to compensate the lack of skills. I believe this happened once before.

The main reasons I suggested this are:
- stimulate competitiveness of new managers
- extend the amount of years a player can be used in your squad. I really thing it would be more realistic.

You could introduce this in several fases, indeed. Starting with 6-8 ball upgrade of youths and a 1ste condition camp of existing players.
The second season you introduce a second upgrade of 6-8 ball for the 16y-old, + an additional CC for all existing players (including 17y old).
Finally in the 3th season, the 3th upgrade + CC comes.)

This would create an overall upgrade for starting youths off 16-21 balls, plus minus.

Other effects:
- crappy players will have more balls at the age of 21 and 23, and therefore become handy for Uxx competitions whilst in the old system, we would've get rid of them already.
- this might mean that these type of players also get a certain market value, despite early maxings in SP-ST and headskils.

I'm open to any kind of critics to this suggestion.

I also like to mention that I like the updated version a little more, but still think it makes it far to easy to select only good players from you academy.
I like the charm of the game were not all youths are new football gods. My suggestion would save these guys from becoming a Sunday league player only, but give them the chance to shine thanks to their all-roundness.

Ri: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By goalsaurus (LA) - 08-02-2019 15:28

My two cent: I think it's more realistic to give young players more starting balls only in speed and stamina, the other skills are fine to me. Giving a few extra skills little by little won't harm anyone.My two cent: I think it's more realistic to give young players more starting balls only in speed and stamina, the other skills are fine to me.
Giving a few extra skills little by little won't harm anyone.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By darkline - 08-02-2019 17:25

[FLUSA]
President

More balls for youths are not a good idea for many reasons, out of the top of my head, one is that last time the training speed was increased it required those special training camps that where a big fiasco and really messed up things, took several seasons to get back to normal. It will screw up U18 competitions and it would also make U23 redundant, 23 y/old players would be maxed out on all key skills, quality wise a U23 team will be exactly the same as a senior team but with less experience so there wouldn't even be a point in playing u23. On the other hand, I think experience should be adjusted so most players have 9 experience by 24 y/oldMore balls for youths are not a good idea for many reasons, out of the top of my head, one is that last time the training speed was increased it required those special training camps that where a big fiasco and really messed up things, took several seasons to get back to normal.

It will screw up U18 competitions and it would also make U23 redundant, 23 y/old players would be maxed out on all key skills, quality wise a U23 team will be exactly the same as a senior team but with less experience so there wouldn't even be a point in playing u23.

On the other hand, I think experience should be adjusted so most players have 9 experience by 24 y/old

Ri: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By albyer - 08-02-2019 19:43

[Milan]

the idea is very beautiful. add a fun element 5 or 6 per season cost from 20000 to 35000the idea is very beautiful.
add a fun element
5 or 6 per season
cost from 20000 to 35000

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By go_fusion - 08-02-2019 20:10

I'll tell you this much, the youth system could see some improvements. Great topic!I'll tell you this much, the youth system could see some improvements. Great topic!

Ant: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By mwosle (FA) - 08-02-2019 20:12

[DISCLL]

It what way did those camps screw things up? What I remember is that those camps were compensations for introducing faster training speed. So it was an advantage for older

darkline wrote:

More balls for youths are not a good idea for many reasons, out of the top of my head, one is that last time the training speed was increased it required those special training camps that where a big fiasco and really messed up things, took several seasons to get back to normal.

It will screw up U18 competitions and it would also make U23 redundant, 23 y/old players would be maxed out on all key skills, quality wise a U23 team will be exactly the same as a senior team but with less experience so there wouldn't even be a point in playing u23.

On the other hand, I think experience should be adjusted so most players have 9 experience by 24 y/old

It what way did those camps screw things up?
What I remember is that those camps were compensations for introducing faster training speed. So it was an advantage for older

Ant: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By mwosle (FA) - 08-02-2019 20:17

[DISCLL]

Pressed sent unintentionally. ... players. They got a boost while new, fast training, yought still had the same amount off balls when starting, but just were training faster. My suggestions includes that condition training camps compensate for higher starting balls. It's a total different case here. If most of the players would be fullmaxed by the age off 23, then there should be a little bit less extra starting balls. There I agree with you.Pressed sent unintentionally.


... players. They got a boost while new, fast training, yought still had the same amount off balls when starting, but just were training faster.

My suggestions includes that condition training camps compensate for higher starting balls. It's a total different case here.

If most of the players would be fullmaxed by the age off 23, then there should be a little bit less extra starting balls. There I agree with you.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By darkline - 08-02-2019 21:47

[FLUSA]
President

For example, if you had crap players because you didn't bother to train them properly or you just got crap from the market, with the special camps you could turn those crap players into very good or excellent by winning 6/7 balls on one skill, a 7 ball defender could be turned into a 10 balls striker with a bit of luck... on the other hand, if you had good players already then those camps where not very useful as relevant skills are already maxed. I remember it completely threw the game out of wack, lazy managers with weak teams got extremely benefited, teams with already good players got very little benefit, also the market was out of wack too, suddenly people wanted to buy crap players to see if by using the special camps they could turn them into good or sellable players to make a quick buck. I'm sure there where more consequences but it was a long time ago, would have to dig the threads with people complaining to remember.

mwosle wrote:

It what way did those camps screw things up?
What I remember is that those camps were compensations for introducing faster training speed. So it was an advantage for older

For example, if you had crap players because you didn't bother to train them properly or you just got crap from the market, with the special camps you could turn those crap players into very good or excellent by winning 6/7 balls on one skill, a 7 ball defender could be turned into a 10 balls striker with a bit of luck... on the other hand, if you had good players already then those camps where not very useful as relevant skills are already maxed.

I remember it completely threw the game out of wack, lazy managers with weak teams got extremely benefited, teams with already good players got very little benefit, also the market was out of wack too, suddenly people wanted to buy crap players to see if by using the special camps they could turn them into good or sellable players to make a quick buck.

I'm sure there where more consequences but it was a long time ago, would have to dig the threads with people complaining to remember.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By darkline - 08-02-2019 21:50

[FLUSA]
President

For example, this is one of my U23 players [fpl=202840009] Now imagine he would have come with 18 more balls like the photo from your example.... he'd be totally maxed with about 80 total balls and still, 6 experience....

mwosle wrote:

If most of the players would be fullmaxed by the age off 23, then there should be a little bit less extra starting balls. There I agree with you.

For example, this is one of my U23 players

Judas Priest

Age: 44 (Retired)

Now imagine he would have come with 18 more balls like the photo from your example.... he'd be totally maxed with about 80 total balls and still, 6 experience....

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By powdersnow (Crew) - 08-02-2019 22:26

[BFTF]

Have to say I agree with darkline. The ramifications of such a big change could be pretty devastating. And its not always easy to project how a big change like that would pan out over time. The itc camps weren't a big success as I recall (though they were fun to use).Have to say I agree with darkline. The ramifications of such a big change could be pretty devastating. And its not always easy to project how a big change like that would pan out over time.

The itc camps weren't a big success as I recall (though they were fun to use).

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By franella82 - 08-02-2019 22:39

[CBA-MZ]

A perfect example of why players need a bost of experience, That good young player cant play at senior level until 28 years, its ridiculous.

darkline wrote:

Judas Priest

Age: 44 (Retired)

A perfect example of why players need a bost of experience, That good young player cant play at senior level until 28 years, its ridiculous.

Ri: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By goalsaurus (LA) - 08-02-2019 22:46

Now imagine he would have come with 18 more balls like the photo from your example.... he'd be totally maxed with about 80 total balls and still, 6 experience.... And that is wrong because...?Now imagine he would have come with 18 more balls like the photo from your example.... he'd be totally maxed with about 80 total balls and still, 6 experience....

And that is wrong because...?

Ri: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By goalsaurus (LA) - 08-02-2019 22:49

franella, that is exactly what happens in reality. Even young champions need time to get the right experience. I will make experience even slower, other than the last ball, that is really unnecessary too slow.franella, that is exactly what happens in reality. Even young champions need time to get the right experience. I will make experience even slower, other than the last ball, that is really unnecessary too slow.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By franella82 - 08-02-2019 22:56

[CBA-MZ]

Because experience is a key atribute for our SIM, if you dont have a squad with 9 experience or more in this game you will not win against anybody. In reality Mbappe can be a world class player at 20, in MZ he will only be a star at age of 26 or more. Its an extreme case, but its a good analogy. Regards.

goalsaurus wrote:

Now imagine he would have come with 18 more balls like the photo from your example.... he'd be totally maxed with about 80 total balls and still, 6 experience....

And that is wrong because...?

Because experience is a key atribute for our SIM, if you dont have a squad with 9 experience or more in this game you will not win against anybody. In reality Mbappe can be a world class player at 20, in MZ he will only be a star at age of 26 or more. Its an extreme case, but its a good analogy. Regards.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By darkline - 09-02-2019 00:33

[FLUSA]
President

Out of the top of my head, it will make training players really boring if they max at 22/23 y/old and there's nothing else to train them at, U23 teams will be the same as senior teams minus a few balls in experience, making U23 competitions redundant and also, what's the point of having players that look like stars if they will play poorly due to low experience? Also, salaries are tied to player skills so it will make the salaries a lot more expensive, making training camps more expensive and also draining your finances on salaries. What I do support is training experience faster, right now you have to train a player for 9/10 seasons up to the point he's 25/26 y/old and have decent experience, you use it for 4 seasons and then he starts to deteriorate, and the problem isn't lack of skills as many 23 y/old are fully prepared to play at a senior level but they lack the experience.... so again, what's the point of getting youths with more balls if they still are not going to be able to play at senior level until they're 25/26 y/old?

goalsaurus wrote:

Now imagine he would have come with 18 more balls like the photo from your example.... he'd be totally maxed with about 80 total balls and still, 6 experience....

And that is wrong because...?

Out of the top of my head, it will make training players really boring if they max at 22/23 y/old and there's nothing else to train them at, U23 teams will be the same as senior teams minus a few balls in experience, making U23 competitions redundant and also, what's the point of having players that look like stars if they will play poorly due to low experience? Also, salaries are tied to player skills so it will make the salaries a lot more expensive, making training camps more expensive and also draining your finances on salaries.

What I do support is training experience faster, right now you have to train a player for 9/10 seasons up to the point he's 25/26 y/old and have decent experience, you use it for 4 seasons and then he starts to deteriorate, and the problem isn't lack of skills as many 23 y/old are fully prepared to play at a senior level but they lack the experience.... so again, what's the point of getting youths with more balls if they still are not going to be able to play at senior level until they're 25/26 y/old?

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By hanzinho - 09-02-2019 04:56

[WCE]
President

Discussing training speed or basically anything else, is kinda pointless. The current framework doesn't allow much change. That is why deterioration and training 2.0 was a failure. I have seen 25 year old outfield player training keeping, because he was maxed everywhere. That gives you the impression of a broken system. The skills have a scope between 4 to 10, and there are only a handful of active skills per position on the pitch. No matter what you do to the training speed, we end up having players that look identical. Either they look identical at 25 (with higher training speed and/or more starting balls) or they will look identical at the age of 29 (like currently). I don't get it. I am the only one who sees this problem? First of all, change the visual presentation of the skills. Balls = obsolete. It looks weird. Maybe keep it as a template, but not the default one. Form should be renamed "match fitness" to avoid confusion. Because that is what it is. Two things can be done with experience. Either tune down its importance in the sim, or make players reach maximum XP at an much earlier age than currently. Yesterday I saw a 29 year old NT player with 8 in XP.. Absurd. Remove/move the decimal so that players range from 0 to 100 in each skill. Remove maxings aswell. It was something that was coded 'on the fly' back in 2001/2002. Training speed should determine the players potential. The closer he gets to his actual potential in a given skill, the slower he trains. The advantage with this is that you will have players that doesn't all look the same. Players might have 77, 89 or 97 in this or that. Not 8, 9 or 10. Youth players should arrive looking like actual footballers. To make this transition smooth, add more and more skill (currently known as balls..) to the 16 year olds, season by season, until we are there. Their training efficiency should be reduced to negate the effect of them being more complete upon arrival. It is silly that youths arrive with 15 balls, and then they graduate with 35. Youths look like a blank sheet of paper upon arrival, and it kills what should and could be the most fun aspect of this game. Not to mention that it deters new users from continuing playing this game (new users have no idea that these players learn faster than AlphaZero).Discussing training speed or basically anything else, is kinda pointless. The current framework doesn't allow much change. That is why deterioration and training 2.0 was a failure. I have seen 25 year old outfield player training keeping, because he was maxed everywhere. That gives you the impression of a broken system.

The skills have a scope between 4 to 10, and there are only a handful of active skills per position on the pitch. No matter what you do to the training speed, we end up having players that look identical. Either they look identical at 25 (with higher training speed and/or more starting balls) or they will look identical at the age of 29 (like currently). I don't get it. I am the only one who sees this problem?

First of all, change the visual presentation of the skills. Balls = obsolete. It looks weird. Maybe keep it as a template, but not the default one. Form should be renamed "match fitness" to avoid confusion. Because that is what it is. Two things can be done with experience. Either tune down its importance in the sim, or make players reach maximum XP at an much earlier age than currently. Yesterday I saw a 29 year old NT player with 8 in XP.. Absurd.

Remove/move the decimal so that players range from 0 to 100 in each skill. Remove maxings aswell. It was something that was coded 'on the fly' back in 2001/2002. Training speed should determine the players potential. The closer he gets to his actual potential in a given skill, the slower he trains. The advantage with this is that you will have players that doesn't all look the same. Players might have 77, 89 or 97 in this or that. Not 8, 9 or 10.

Youth players should arrive looking like actual footballers. To make this transition smooth, add more and more skill (currently known as balls..) to the 16 year olds, season by season, until we are there. Their training efficiency should be reduced to negate the effect of them being more complete upon arrival. It is silly that youths arrive with 15 balls, and then they graduate with 35. Youths look like a blank sheet of paper upon arrival, and it kills what should and could be the most fun aspect of this game. Not to mention that it deters new users from continuing playing this game (new users have no idea that these players learn faster than AlphaZero).

Ri: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By goalsaurus (LA) - 09-02-2019 10:25

Darkline, the following sentences are contradictory: [i](1)U23 teams will be the same as senior teams minus a few balls in experience, making U23 competitions redundant and (2)also, what's the point of having players that look like stars if they will play poorly due to low experience?[/i] The point of having senior players should be exactly that: [b]they are better in experience[/b]. There should be a choice about it, [b]do you want players with more speed and stamina or players with more experience?[/b] Today it's too easy having both of them and [u]don't bring me champions like Mbappè[/u], in real life they are a minority and for a good reason. That's why I want young players with more speed and stamina, so, when it comes do the above question, you, as a manager, can choose whatever you like and the right combination will bring you to victory. PS have you ever seen or heard about U23 competitions in real life? [i]Also, salaries are tied to player skills[/i] You have a point, salaries should be connected to experience as well.Darkline, the following sentences are contradictory:
(1)U23 teams will be the same as senior teams minus a few balls in experience, making U23 competitions redundant and (2)also, what's the point of having players that look like stars if they will play poorly due to low experience?
The point of having senior players should be exactly that: they are better in experience. There should be a choice about it, do you want players with more speed and stamina or players with more experience? Today it's too easy having both of them and don't bring me champions like Mbappè, in real life they are a minority and for a good reason. That's why I want young players with more speed and stamina, so, when it comes do the above question, you, as a manager, can choose whatever you like and the right combination will bring you to victory.

PS have you ever seen or heard about U23 competitions in real life?

Also, salaries are tied to player skills
You have a point, salaries should be connected to experience as well.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By mihairo - 09-02-2019 10:39

[-FO-]

You see? You can't discuss youth player growth without talking about training speed. They are linked. They are not separate things or discussions or topics. Now, moving on... First of all, Adrian and the others are so right. There is only one main idea. We need better youths. Does the analysis make them better? Not exactly. It would give us a much better training plan, but it would give us the same training result, like the posted players (actually just Adrian's player, 'cause mine were deleted, but you get the picture). So what do the players need to become better and, of course, faster? We can't turn to Intensive Camps. It was too much lottery. Some players received 11 balls and others only 2 balls at the same age. Now we have two issues: overall skills and experience. Both need to be increased faster. We don't need so many TCs. My best players receive 8-9 TCs. This is why they don't have experience. Let's take Adrian's player. He is a great player, still training on Play Intelligence, Passing, Shooting, Header etc. Let's suppose the player will become a 10 PI player. He will need 4-5 seasons to train it (without TC, of course, because he needs experience). He will become a complete player at the age of 27-28. Isn't that too late? People wrote about Mbappe. He was playing for the National Team at the age of 18 and bought by PSG for 125 mil. ... At the age of 18... We need better U21 players to be able to play and gain experience, not TCs. Yes, there is a problem of salary. Higher overall means higher salary. Let's suppose that I have a 70 overall player at the age of 22. I mean, why spend 200-300k on TC when the player needs experience? So, I should play him as much as I can in Uxx competitions. He should be able to reach exp 8-9 at the age of 23. It should be enough. Messi received the Best Player of the World Award at the age of 19, but everybody still needs Uxx competitions to practice their players. The main idea is that we need players with overall at 70 at the age of 22. That's what we need. How do we make them this good so early? We have two options: 1. Better starting youths and keep the training speed 2. Same starting youths and increase the training speed 1. Much better starting youths, with +4 speed and stamina, don't actually need training analysis, because all they need is 1-2 balls to see if they are good or not. 2. Increasing the training speed would unbalance the market probably. ITCs are not an option. So how do we do it? First of all, IMO the way things are moving towards, giving everybody the possibility of having a Ronaldo and Messi both at the club, is not realistic, because that's what the training analysis does. I think it's too powerful. Making all the players superstars means having no superstars at all. That's what we're missing. Everybody knows that all players train differently. We call it training speed. Some players train faster than others. It's a fact in MZ. It's a fact in RL. Just increase the training speed little by little, but I find this idea of all players having superstar potential very bad for the market. Why spend 4 mil on a player when you can grow 20 with just one training scout? Would that be realistic? Ask yourselves this: what do we really need? Players like Multeanu, Lago, Pavel Alexandru, players that made history. That's what we need. There, you will find the answer. I have wrote a novel, so, in conclusion, I ask all of you this: Give me a RL club with youth academies that gives them superstars every season. I tell you. There is none. Messi, Ronaldo and every star on the planet were bought by Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus, Bayern, even though they do have the strongest academies. Scouting isn't about training, is about scouting the Market. All the players become better by playing, not by training. We should encourage the managers to play the game, not grow youths for profit and wait for that moment when they say "I have 50 mil. in my account, now I can build a team", because it's boring and they might never do it and just leave. Hsnzinho is also right. Too many players looking the same. That's what kills the player value on the market. We already have player game rates. We have MVPs at every game. But they are worthless for training. I have a suggestion. Lose the training field. Have coaches for every skill, but stop there. Let the players gain skills and experience with every match they play. For e.g. He scores a goal, gain more shooting. Clean sheet means more keeping skill for Keeper and more tackling for Defenders. Introduce morale. Winning means higher morale. Losing means lower morale. Make the manager study tactic options. And yes, losing should mean decreasing the skills, but not by much. Make the manager to try to keep the player skills fit. If he starts losing the games, make them turn to scouting. I mean, why make them improve a winning team? It's not realistic. Yes, I agree, the visual balls are absolite. For e.g. we should have 79 instead of 7.9 because 7.9 is still 7, which is no better than 7.1. Have an overall skill, but not as it is today, but averages for different positions on the field, like 86 Forward, 75 Winger, 78 Midfielder, 64 Defender, 34 Keeper based on his skills. It would be nice if they are shown in tactics. Have a potential skill. Reduce it with age. That should do it. So players should be sold/bought according to their skills, potential and morale. Buying a superstar with low morale would make the manager find tactic solutions for him.

mihairo wrote:

Edited. Please keep your posts on topic. Thanks. :) //powdersnow

You see? You can't discuss youth player growth without talking about training speed.
They are linked. They are not separate things or discussions or topics.
Now, moving on...

First of all, Adrian and the others are so right.
There is only one main idea.
We need better youths.
Does the analysis make them better? Not exactly.
It would give us a much better training plan, but it would give us the same training result, like the posted players (actually just Adrian's player, 'cause mine were deleted, but you get the picture).
So what do the players need to become better and, of course, faster?
We can't turn to Intensive Camps. It was too much lottery. Some players received 11 balls and others only 2 balls at the same age.

Now we have two issues: overall skills and experience. Both need to be increased faster.
We don't need so many TCs. My best players receive 8-9 TCs. This is why they don't have experience.
Let's take Adrian's player. He is a great player, still training on Play Intelligence, Passing, Shooting, Header etc. Let's suppose the player will become a 10 PI player. He will need 4-5 seasons to train it (without TC, of course, because he needs experience). He will become a complete player at the age of 27-28. Isn't that too late?
People wrote about Mbappe. He was playing for the National Team at the age of 18 and bought by PSG for 125 mil. ... At the age of 18...
We need better U21 players to be able to play and gain experience, not TCs.

Yes, there is a problem of salary. Higher overall means higher salary.
Let's suppose that I have a 70 overall player at the age of 22.
I mean, why spend 200-300k on TC when the player needs experience?
So, I should play him as much as I can in Uxx competitions. He should be able to reach exp 8-9 at the age of 23. It should be enough.
Messi received the Best Player of the World Award at the age of 19, but everybody still needs Uxx competitions to practice their players.

The main idea is that we need players with overall at 70 at the age of 22. That's what we need.
How do we make them this good so early?
We have two options:
1. Better starting youths and keep the training speed
2. Same starting youths and increase the training speed

1. Much better starting youths, with +4 speed and stamina, don't actually need training analysis, because all they need is 1-2 balls to see if they are good or not.
2. Increasing the training speed would unbalance the market probably. ITCs are not an option.

So how do we do it?
First of all, IMO the way things are moving towards, giving everybody the possibility of having a Ronaldo and Messi both at the club, is not realistic, because that's what the training analysis does. I think it's too powerful.
Making all the players superstars means having no superstars at all. That's what we're missing.
Everybody knows that all players train differently. We call it training speed. Some players train faster than others. It's a fact in MZ. It's a fact in RL.
Just increase the training speed little by little, but I find this idea of all players having superstar potential very bad for the market.
Why spend 4 mil on a player when you can grow 20 with just one training scout? Would that be realistic?

Ask yourselves this: what do we really need?
Players like Multeanu, Lago, Pavel Alexandru, players that made history. That's what we need.
There, you will find the answer.

I have wrote a novel, so, in conclusion, I ask all of you this:
Give me a RL club with youth academies that gives them superstars every season.
I tell you. There is none.
Messi, Ronaldo and every star on the planet were bought by Real Madrid, Barcelona, Juventus, Bayern, even though they do have the strongest academies.
Scouting isn't about training, is about scouting the Market.
All the players become better by playing, not by training.
We should encourage the managers to play the game, not grow youths for profit and wait for that moment when they say "I have 50 mil. in my account, now I can build a team", because it's boring and they might never do it and just leave.
Hsnzinho is also right. Too many players looking the same. That's what kills the player value on the market.
We already have player game rates. We have MVPs at every game. But they are worthless for training.
I have a suggestion. Lose the training field. Have coaches for every skill, but stop there. Let the players gain skills and experience with every match they play.
For e.g. He scores a goal, gain more shooting.
Clean sheet means more keeping skill for Keeper and more tackling for Defenders.
Introduce morale. Winning means higher morale. Losing means lower morale. Make the manager study tactic options.
And yes, losing should mean decreasing the skills, but not by much.
Make the manager to try to keep the player skills fit.
If he starts losing the games, make them turn to scouting. I mean, why make them improve a winning team? It's not realistic.
Yes, I agree, the visual balls are absolite. For e.g. we should have 79 instead of 7.9 because 7.9 is still 7, which is no better than 7.1.
Have an overall skill, but not as it is today, but averages for different positions on the field, like 86 Forward, 75 Winger, 78 Midfielder, 64 Defender, 34 Keeper based on his skills.
It would be nice if they are shown in tactics.
Have a potential skill. Reduce it with age. That should do it. So players should be sold/bought according to their skills, potential and morale.
Buying a superstar with low morale would make the manager find tactic solutions for him.

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By powdersnow (Crew) - 09-02-2019 11:21

[BFTF]

@mihairo: it is perfectly possible. But since the analysis feature has moved into anothe thread it is now fine for this one to move into another direction :)@mihairo: it is perfectly possible. But since the analysis feature has moved into anothe thread it is now fine for this one to move into another direction :)

Re: Idea: Youth Potential Analysis (looking for your opinions)

By darkline - 09-02-2019 11:36

[FLUSA]
President

@hanz You're pretty much describing how training works on career mode on EA's FIFA... it is a better system I believe. In any case, we only have a handful of trainable skills, we should have about 30 instead but again, that's unworkable as that big of a change would need a new SIM, etc. etc. etc.@hanz

You're pretty much describing how training works on career mode on EA's FIFA... it is a better system I believe.

In any case, we only have a handful of trainable skills, we should have about 30 instead but again, that's unworkable as that big of a change would need a new SIM, etc. etc. etc.

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