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Boring youth pull system

By gurdash - 20-02-2018 15:50

[Ex Yu]

Need to say more? Only to elaborate a bit... I have played two other football manager games and they both had youth system much more interesting. Pulling a new youth player every week was a bit of highlight of a day - for better or worse, it doesn't matter. When I pulled a new youngster, I could immediately tell if he was great or bad - or if he was average, I would have to decide what to do with him. In MZ, I still must decide should I take him or not, but for this decision it is the best to contact the local fortune teller. His total sum of skills can range from as low as 8 balls up to 22 (plus/minus one ball). It doesn't really mater, because from both ends the player might be a total wreck or a future superstar. Having 8 or 22, you can still train his important skills up to max before he reaches old age - starting with 22, it will be sooner, but still... Scout report would only help me avoid training wrong skills - which is fine. Although for this aspect, most of players starting with 20+ balls turned out to be goalkeepers and this initial advantage immediately became a disappointment. When the player is aged 22-23, after many seasons of training - only then I can begin to realize what I really have. Ok, this is how this game works and I accept that. But, the following points make me feel bad about it: 1. I feel rahter stupid when tuesday comes and I must decide should I go for a new youth on the youth exchange or just reject him. What to base my decision on? Any of players that I reject might have been a potential superstar and I can easily replace a good one with a total looser. It is a total lottery. I don't feel that I am improving my chances when actually replacing a player, because I never know what I am exchanging with what. It would be nice to have an additional indicator about the player potentials, so I can weight my decision on something actually relevant. 2. There is no excitement when getting a new player on a youth exchange. It is plain boring for the same reason as above - when I see the new player info, it doesn't mean anything. It is a bit better if he has more balls, having a chance to become a good player sooner, but it really means nothing towards his potentials. As I said in point 1, it is a lottery. But if you like playing lottery, when you buy a ticket, in a matter of days you know if you are winner or looser. Here you have to wait for 1-2 years (of real life) to find out if you picked the good ones. Not very exciting...Need to say more?

Only to elaborate a bit...

I have played two other football manager games and they both had youth system much more interesting. Pulling a new youth player every week was a bit of highlight of a day - for better or worse, it doesn't matter. When I pulled a new youngster, I could immediately tell if he was great or bad - or if he was average, I would have to decide what to do with him.

In MZ, I still must decide should I take him or not, but for this decision it is the best to contact the local fortune teller.

His total sum of skills can range from as low as 8 balls up to 22 (plus/minus one ball). It doesn't really mater, because from both ends the player might be a total wreck or a future superstar. Having 8 or 22, you can still train his important skills up to max before he reaches old age - starting with 22, it will be sooner, but still...

Scout report would only help me avoid training wrong skills - which is fine. Although for this aspect, most of players starting with 20+ balls turned out to be goalkeepers and this initial advantage immediately became a disappointment.

When the player is aged 22-23, after many seasons of training - only then I can begin to realize what I really have.

Ok, this is how this game works and I accept that. But, the following points make me feel bad about it:

1. I feel rahter stupid when tuesday comes and I must decide should I go for a new youth on the youth exchange or just reject him. What to base my decision on? Any of players that I reject might have been a potential superstar and I can easily replace a good one with a total looser. It is a total lottery. I don't feel that I am improving my chances when actually replacing a player, because I never know what I am exchanging with what. It would be nice to have an additional indicator about the player potentials, so I can weight my decision on something actually relevant.

2. There is no excitement when getting a new player on a youth exchange. It is plain boring for the same reason as above - when I see the new player info, it doesn't mean anything. It is a bit better if he has more balls, having a chance to become a good player sooner, but it really means nothing towards his potentials.
As I said in point 1, it is a lottery. But if you like playing lottery, when you buy a ticket, in a matter of days you know if you are winner or looser. Here you have to wait for 1-2 years (of real life) to find out if you picked the good ones. Not very exciting...

 

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Re: Boring youth pull system

By hanzinho - 20-02-2018 17:07

[WCE]
President

I agree with you. The YCC/Scout Report has its limitations. I am sure I have traded away several youth players that would have become world class players, simply because there is no way of knowing until they become 21, 22 or sometimes even 23 years of age. Basically it is all about the starting balls, but the problem there is that quite often it doesn't match the position suggested by YCC/Scout Report. I was offered a 16 yo yesterday that had 3,5 in keeping, and few balls elsewhere. According to the Scout Report, he was a striker. The youth system has in my opinion always been a bit grey and boring here on MZ, and I fear that it has held the game back quite a lot. One of the first things a new user are faced with, is the youth system. It should be made more interesting than it is currently in my opinion. I love the U18 tournaments though, so not everything is bad regarding youths here o MZ. I have previously suggested a special report, perhaps through a new facility, or new staff (or both). The staff could simply be called "Scout". The better the scout, the more accurately (but never 100%) he can give his verdict on the youth player. It should cost money, and text instead of balls in the prediction of the players potential. For example: Speed - Medium potential Stamina - Very high potential Play intelligence - Low potential Passing - Very high potential Shooting - Low potential Heading - Very high potential Etc. Very high potential = 9-10 balls Medium potential = 6-8 balls Low potential = 4-5 balls The report should by no means be a blueprint of the future, but atleast give you some clue regarding his actual potential. And even the best scout should occasionally be wrong regarding a skill. Perhaps also limit the amount of skills that can be analyzed per player, 3 for example.I agree with you. The YCC/Scout Report has its limitations. I am sure I have traded away several youth players that would have become world class players, simply because there is no way of knowing until they become 21, 22 or sometimes even 23 years of age. Basically it is all about the starting balls, but the problem there is that quite often it doesn't match the position suggested by YCC/Scout Report. I was offered a 16 yo yesterday that had 3,5 in keeping, and few balls elsewhere. According to the Scout Report, he was a striker.

The youth system has in my opinion always been a bit grey and boring here on MZ, and I fear that it has held the game back quite a lot. One of the first things a new user are faced with, is the youth system. It should be made more interesting than it is currently in my opinion. I love the U18 tournaments though, so not everything is bad regarding youths here o MZ.

I have previously suggested a special report, perhaps through a new facility, or new staff (or both). The staff could simply be called "Scout". The better the scout, the more accurately (but never 100%) he can give his verdict on the youth player. It should cost money, and text instead of balls in the prediction of the players potential.

For example:

Speed - Medium potential
Stamina - Very high potential
Play intelligence - Low potential
Passing - Very high potential
Shooting - Low potential
Heading - Very high potential
Etc.

Very high potential = 9-10 balls
Medium potential = 6-8 balls
Low potential = 4-5 balls

The report should by no means be a blueprint of the future, but atleast give you some clue regarding his actual potential. And even the best scout should occasionally be wrong regarding a skill. Perhaps also limit the amount of skills that can be analyzed per player, 3 for example.

Ant: Boring youth pull system

By sunhound - 20-02-2018 18:02

[DISCLL]

I like this, but would forego "medium potential" and replace with just high/low - we shouldn't make it all too easy now ;) Plucking some ideas like this from FM or FIFA could make the overall experience more appealing to long term managers though. Perhaps overhauling the youth system goes hand in hand with overhauling the way "training" works

hanzinho wrote:

I agree with you. The YCC/Scout Report has its limitations. I am sure I have traded away several youth players that would have become world class players, simply because there is no way of knowing until they become 21, 22 or sometimes even 23 years of age. Basically it is all about the starting balls, but the problem there is that quite often it doesn't match the position suggested by YCC/Scout Report. I was offered a 16 yo yesterday that had 3,5 in keeping, and few balls elsewhere. According to the Scout Report, he was a striker.

The youth system has in my opinion always been a bit grey and boring here on MZ, and I fear that it has held the game back quite a lot. One of the first things a new user are faced with, is the youth system. It should be made more interesting than it is currently in my opinion. I love the U18 tournaments though, so not everything is bad regarding youths here o MZ.

I have previously suggested a special report, perhaps through a new facility, or new staff (or both). The staff could simply be called "Scout". The better the scout, the more accurately (but never 100%) he can give his verdict on the youth player. It should cost money, and text instead of balls in the prediction of the players potential.

For example:

Speed - Medium potential
Stamina - Very high potential
Play intelligence - Low potential
Passing - Very high potential
Shooting - Low potential
Heading - Very high potential
Etc.

Very high potential = 9-10 balls
Medium potential = 6-8 balls
Low potential = 4-5 balls

The report should by no means be a blueprint of the future, but atleast give you some clue regarding his actual potential. And even the best scout should occasionally be wrong regarding a skill. Perhaps also limit the amount of skills that can be analyzed per player, 3 for example.

I like this, but would forego "medium potential" and replace with just high/low - we shouldn't make it all too easy now ;) Plucking some ideas like this from FM or FIFA could make the overall experience more appealing to long term managers though.

Perhaps overhauling the youth system goes hand in hand with overhauling the way "training" works

Re: Boring youth pull system

By hanzinho - 20-02-2018 18:44

[WCE]
President

Yeah, high/low might suffice actually. It keeps the mystique, while giving us atleast somewhat of a clue what is going on! :)Yeah, high/low might suffice actually. It keeps the mystique, while giving us atleast somewhat of a clue what is going on! :)

Uuesti: Boring youth pull system

By deleted_8484490 - 20-02-2018 20:32

I like your ideas. It will make this game more attractive to beginners like me also.I like your ideas. It will make this game more attractive to beginners like me also.

Re: Boring youth pull system

By scruttino - 20-02-2018 22:26

[AUSNZ]

High would have to be a range of 8-10 As I don't consider 7 out of ten as high, but then it isn't low either. So you would need a medium category for it all to make sense High 8-10 medium 6-7 low 0-5

hanzinho wrote:

Yeah, high/low might suffice actually. It keeps the mystique, while giving us atleast somewhat of a clue what is going on! :)

High would have to be a range of 8-10

As I don't consider 7 out of ten as high, but then it isn't low either. So you would need a medium category for it all to make sense

High 8-10
medium 6-7
low 0-5

Re: Boring youth pull system

By hanzinho - 20-02-2018 23:58

[WCE]
President

Question is if that removes too much of the mystique with high, medium, low. It should however work if there is a limit of scouting 1-5 [u]random[/u] skills per player. Example: [img]https://www.managerzone.com/img/coach_classes/class6.gif[/img] [b]A-level scout[/b] 10k euro p/w Can predict 5 random skills. [img]https://www.managerzone.com/img/coach_classes/class5.gif[/img] [b]B-level scout[/b] 8k euro p/w Can predict 4 random skills. [img]https://www.managerzone.com/img/coach_classes/class4.gif[/img] [b]C-level scout[/b] 5k euro p/w Can predict 3 random skills. [img]https://www.managerzone.com/img/coach_classes/class3.gif[/img] [b]D-level scout[/b] 2k euro p/w Can predict 2 random skills. [img]https://www.managerzone.com/img/coach_classes/class2.gif[/img] [b]E-level scout[/b] 1k euro p/w Can predict 1 random skill. This is just from the top of my head, don't pay too much attention to the wages. That creates excitement when you are using the scout, because you hope his prediction will land on skills you consider valuable. Once a player has gotten his skills predicted, you can't use a scout on him again. Another idea is having the scouts with a skill system identical to coaches and players (balls), where the quality of their report is based on how many balls they have in the skill they are predicting. But for this to work, there should be more than high, medium, low. This way, you could hire scouts from your retired players aswell. A 10 baller has a 90% accuracy, 9 baller has 85% etc.Question is if that removes too much of the mystique with high, medium, low.
It should however work if there is a limit of scouting 1-5 random skills per player.

Example:

A-level scout
10k euro p/w
Can predict 5 random skills.

B-level scout
8k euro p/w
Can predict 4 random skills.

C-level scout
5k euro p/w
Can predict 3 random skills.

D-level scout
2k euro p/w
Can predict 2 random skills.

E-level scout
1k euro p/w
Can predict 1 random skill.

This is just from the top of my head, don't pay too much attention to the wages.

That creates excitement when you are using the scout, because you hope his prediction will land on skills you consider valuable. Once a player has gotten his skills predicted, you can't use a scout on him again.

Another idea is having the scouts with a skill system identical to coaches and players (balls), where the quality of their report is based on how many balls they have in the skill they are predicting. But for this to work, there should be more than high, medium, low. This way, you could hire scouts from your retired players aswell. A 10 baller has a 90% accuracy, 9 baller has 85% etc.

Re: Boring youth pull system

By scruttino - 21-02-2018 00:50

[AUSNZ]

That would make 10 ball retired players useful. But you'd have to not price 5 star scouts at double the pay rate of 4 star scout. As the current pricing structure of top level coaches is to high for the small increase in training efficiency they provide. As most people will choose 4 star scouts because they offer the best value for money and your best retired players would still have nothing to do except eat, drink and get fat.

hanzinho wrote:

Another idea is having the scouts with a skill system identical to coaches and players (balls), where the quality of their report is based on how many balls they have in the skill they are predicting. But for this to work, there should be more than high, medium, low. This way, you could hire scouts from your retired players aswell. A 10 baller has a 90% accuracy, 9 baller has 85% etc.

That would make 10 ball retired players useful. But you'd have to not price 5 star scouts at double the pay rate of 4 star scout. As the current pricing structure of top level coaches is to high for the small increase in training efficiency they provide.

As most people will choose 4 star scouts because they offer the best value for money and your best retired players would still have nothing to do except eat, drink and get fat.

Re: Boring youth pull system

By scruttino - 21-02-2018 00:56

[AUSNZ]

That is if the same tiered pricing structure currently used for coaches (ie. double the salary from one ball to the next) was used for scout. Your pricing model albeit off the top of your head makes more sense, if crew used that for coaches people would actual hire their retired 10 ball players and surely that what they would want to happen. As right now the pricing structure provides no incentive to do so.That is if the same tiered pricing structure currently used for coaches (ie. double the salary from one ball to the next) was used for scout.

Your pricing model albeit off the top of your head makes more sense, if crew used that for coaches people would actual hire their retired 10 ball players and surely that what they would want to happen. As right now the pricing structure provides no incentive to do so.

Re: Boring youth pull system

By scruttino - 21-02-2018 01:14

[AUSNZ]

On the flip side, showing us how many players we have to choose from are actually good, would reveal how many are terrible and allow us to calculate a percentage of good players v bad players. If the percentage of good players was less than 10% or 5% that would be an indictment on the current system and really show it for what it is. I have previously mention another way to improve the youth system in another thread "If I could suggest another option. An option that would allow you to see all the youths you have available to choose from, select a scout report for all and then decide who you want to exchange for. It would be like an actual scout camp for youth players, where they all try out and you select the best to make your squad." I would add to this, an ability to choose how many players, by specific positions (judge by scout report or a new scouting system as we are suggesting) you want to see in your scout camp. It could be all strikers, all defenders, all mids, all keepers, or a mixture. Another suggestion I had was lowering the age of youth to 14 to better match how many balls they start off withOn the flip side, showing us how many players we have to choose from are actually good, would reveal how many are terrible and allow us to calculate a percentage of good players v bad players.

If the percentage of good players was less than 10% or 5% that would be an indictment on the current system and really show it for what it is.

I have previously mention another way to improve the youth system in another thread

"If I could suggest another option. An option that would allow you to see all the youths you have available to choose from, select a scout report for all and then decide who you want to exchange for.

It would be like an actual scout camp for youth players, where they all try out and you select the best to make your squad."

I would add to this, an ability to choose how many players, by specific positions (judge by scout report or a new scouting system as we are suggesting) you want to see in your scout camp. It could be all strikers, all defenders, all mids, all keepers, or a mixture.

Another suggestion I had was lowering the age of youth to 14 to better match how many balls they start off with

Re: Boring youth pull system

By civilu - 28-02-2018 14:57

[RAF]
President

1. Great suggestions regarding the youth scouting system. As usual, Hanz is a gem! 2. I would add, like in the case of free YTCs or TC exchanges, a limit to how many players could be scouted a season. 3. I wouldn't want scouts to ne linked in any way to actual players because it would only start a new frenzy to have the best A/B scouts, with as many balls in all skills, as to be as accurate as possible. And it would be extremely difficult to find such A/B scouts. 4. I yet wonder on another thing: WHEN are Crew going to change the manner in which YTC packages work at indicating position? Because this implementation would solve the problem but as the system stands now, I have had so many times pi chosen in YTC (either as main or as secondary skill) that I have finished all cursings. Since pi has been lowered for youths in terms of training efficiency, then why do we get it so often in YTC packages?1. Great suggestions regarding the youth scouting system. As usual, Hanz is a gem!

2. I would add, like in the case of free YTCs or TC exchanges, a limit to how many players could be scouted a season.

3. I wouldn't want scouts to ne linked in any way to actual players because it would only start a new frenzy to have the best A/B scouts, with as many balls in all skills, as to be as accurate as possible. And it would be extremely difficult to find such A/B scouts.

4. I yet wonder on another thing: WHEN are Crew going to change the manner in which YTC packages work at indicating position? Because this implementation would solve the problem but as the system stands now, I have had so many times pi chosen in YTC (either as main or as secondary skill) that I have finished all cursings. Since pi has been lowered for youths in terms of training efficiency, then why do we get it so often in YTC packages?

Re: Boring youth pull system

By powdersnow (Crew) - 02-03-2018 17:34

[BFTF]

We have been discussing various ways to improve the exchange feature (like you say, gurdash, with a few tweaks it could become the highlight of the week). Some of our ideas have been similar to the ones in these thread, though we haven't settled on anything yet. We'll be checking in on discussions such as this one when the time comes to make a decision, so keep talking.We have been discussing various ways to improve the exchange feature (like you say, gurdash, with a few tweaks it could become the highlight of the week). Some of our ideas have been similar to the ones in these thread, though we haven't settled on anything yet.

We'll be checking in on discussions such as this one when the time comes to make a decision, so keep talking.

Re: Boring youth pull system

By aurelrabei - 02-03-2018 18:03

[BotP]

I think only one skill should be showed in report/YTC. The highest main one. If we presume that : Keeper - Keeping Defender - Tackling Midfielder - Passing Winger - Cross Balls Striker - Shooting This way we would know what position we can play a youth/young player.I think only one skill should be showed in report/YTC. The highest main one.
If we presume that :
Keeper - Keeping
Defender - Tackling
Midfielder - Passing
Winger - Cross Balls
Striker - Shooting
This way we would know what position we can play a youth/young player.

Re: Boring youth pull system

By hanzinho - 02-03-2018 23:48

[WCE]
President

Its great to see you guys understand the potential youth exchange could have. Hopefully in the not so distant future we will see something even better than suggested in this thread, as you have pretty much nailed all others features in this game. And then, when youths have been taken care of, I am sure Hall of Fame is next up! [H]

powdersnow wrote:

We have been discussing various ways to improve the exchange feature (like you say, gurdash, with a few tweaks it could become the highlight of the week). Some of our ideas have been similar to the ones in these thread, though we haven't settled on anything yet.

We'll be checking in on discussions such as this one when the time comes to make a decision, so keep talking.

Its great to see you guys understand the potential youth exchange could have. Hopefully in the not so distant future we will see something even better than suggested in this thread, as you have pretty much nailed all others features in this game. And then, when youths have been taken care of, I am sure Hall of Fame is next up! H

Re: Boring youth pull system

By tree_amigos - 03-03-2018 00:44

[MZUSA]
President

Not a big fan of this as currently if either speed or stamina are shown in YTC/report then I know to focus on training the other as unfortunately there is a propensity for a low maxing in the non-indicated skill. Saves me a lot of effort being devoted to a youth who winds up with a low maxing in either of these skills. Just my two cents.

aurelrabei wrote:

I think only one skill should be showed in report/YTC. The highest main one.
If we presume that :
Keeper - Keeping
Defender - Tackling
Midfielder - Passing
Winger - Cross Balls
Striker - Shooting
This way we would know what position we can play a youth/young player.

Not a big fan of this as currently if either speed or stamina are shown in YTC/report then I know to focus on training the other as unfortunately there is a propensity for a low maxing in the non-indicated skill. Saves me a lot of effort being devoted to a youth who winds up with a low maxing in either of these skills. Just my two cents.

Re: Boring youth pull system

By civilu - 03-03-2018 15:56

[RAF]
President

What? I don't understand...

tree_amigos wrote:

Not a big fan of this as currently if either speed or stamina are shown in YTC/report then I know to focus on training the other as unfortunately there is a propensity for a low maxing in the non-indicated skill. Saves me a lot of effort being devoted to a youth who winds up with a low maxing in either of these skills. Just my two cents.

What? I don't understand...

 

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