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A Standard 4-4-2 Success Story

By scruttino - 11-10-2017 01:17

[AUSNZ]

https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&tid=142740&mid=971755269 In the Quarter-Finals of the Season 31 Cup I came across a team running a standard 4-4-2 and obviously doing well because they've got this far. I managed to win the game, but the 4-4-2 performed admirable well. It's the first time I've seen a team use this tactic and be competitive.https://www.managerzone.com/?p=match&sub=result&tid=142740&mid=971755269

In the Quarter-Finals of the Season 31 Cup I came across a team running a standard 4-4-2 and obviously doing well because they've got this far.

I managed to win the game, but the 4-4-2 performed admirable well. It's the first time I've seen a team use this tactic and be competitive.

 

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Re: A Standard 4-4-2 Success Story

By bestplaymaker2134 - 11-10-2017 01:23

[AUSNZ]

The question is whether he could've performed better if he used a "normal" tactic.The question is whether he could've performed better if he used a "normal" tactic.

Re: A Standard 4-4-2 Success Story

By aldebaran - 11-10-2017 10:12

there should be an achievement for this :)there should be an achievement for this :)

Re: A Standard 4-4-2 Success Story

By aurelrabei - 11-10-2017 12:42

[BotP]

Was he changing formation at all ?Was he changing formation at all ?

Re: A Standard 4-4-2 Success Story

By scruttino - 12-10-2017 00:39

[AUSNZ]

No, it was the same throughout the match. My highest midfielder had a lot of space to go forward and back without the normal Defensive Midfield positions blocking his access to run at the Centre Backs

aurelrabei wrote:

Was he changing formation at all ?

No, it was the same throughout the match.

My highest midfielder had a lot of space to go forward and back without the normal Defensive Midfield positions blocking his access to run at the Centre Backs

Re: A Standard 4-4-2 Success Story

By aurelrabei - 12-10-2017 07:11

[BotP]

He did not play good. You played bad. Against 4-4-2 short you supposed to play 3-2 center attacking on short passing as well. You have a better team than he does.He did not play good.
You played bad.
Against 4-4-2 short you supposed to play 3-2 center attacking on short passing as well.
You have a better team than he does.

Re: A Standard 4-4-2 Success Story

By scruttino - 12-10-2017 07:49

[AUSNZ]

Well sure, but it was a set and forget default tactic. I did no pre-game planning for the tactic I played

aurelrabei wrote:

He did not play good.
You played bad.
Against 4-4-2 short you supposed to play 3-2 center attacking on short passing as well.
You have a better team than he does.

Well sure, but it was a set and forget default tactic. I did no pre-game planning for the tactic I played

Re: A Standard 4-4-2 Success Story

By civilu - 16-10-2017 13:32

[RAF]
President

And.... another one: [u][b]mid=971819105[/b][/u] Two things about this: - the game should have (or so I remember) placed players in the field according to their shirt no. and it didn't (it's rather chaotic + it chose some other players than the first 11) - the fielding was done like this (left to right): keeper (this it got right) > def+striker+of.mid+def > def+def+sub.def/winger+sub.def/def.mid > striker+of.mid; tactic (obviously) short passing. No matter the scoring chances my opponent had (and probably my keeper will be man of the match), considering the strength of the team I played against, this shouldn't happen. Or maybe if only I had played wings tactic... maybe... But then again, this is MZ!And.... another one: mid=971819105

Two things about this:
- the game should have (or so I remember) placed players in the field according to their shirt no. and it didn't (it's rather chaotic + it chose some other players than the first 11)
- the fielding was done like this (left to right): keeper (this it got right) > def+striker+of.mid+def > def+def+sub.def/winger+sub.def/def.mid > striker+of.mid; tactic (obviously) short passing.

No matter the scoring chances my opponent had (and probably my keeper will be man of the match), considering the strength of the team I played against, this shouldn't happen. Or maybe if only I had played wings tactic... maybe...

But then again, this is MZ!

Re: A Standard 4-4-2 Success Story

By civilu - 16-10-2017 17:49

[RAF]
President

PS: I was right, my keeper was MVP, even if he had 12 saves, while the opposing keeper had 14. Possibly because mine didn't concede 4... :) Some (fun?) facts of the game: - SC 13 (TS) to 17 (me) - 2 goals I scored are from players with 0 shooting, who got 3 shots total, all 3 on goal, 1 goal each - the main striker (playing as central def.) got 3 interception, while my main defender (playing center def. also) got only 1 - they have 3 and respectively 10 in tack I could go on... but this is just... crazy! [:O]PS:
I was right, my keeper was MVP, even if he had 12 saves, while the opposing keeper had 14. Possibly because mine didn't concede 4... :)

Some (fun?) facts of the game:
- SC 13 (TS) to 17 (me)
- 2 goals I scored are from players with 0 shooting, who got 3 shots total, all 3 on goal, 1 goal each
- the main striker (playing as central def.) got 3 interception, while my main defender (playing center def. also) got only 1 - they have 3 and respectively 10 in tack

I could go on... but this is just... crazy!

Re: A Standard 4-4-2 Success Story

By scruttino - 17-10-2017 06:07

[AUSNZ]

Yeah, it's teaches you a lot about what skills players need to score and tackle respectively. I once had a Right Back that kept moving forward to become my main striker late in games. I wondered why until I looked into my alternative tactics and found players all over the park playing out of position. But the surprising thing was despite his 2-3 balls in shooting and heading he scored regularly and bagged multiple goals often. So for a while I kept him there even after fixing other playing positions in my alternative tactics. From this I learnt players don't need high ball counts to score regularly, as the overall balls your team has will counteract one or two players playing out of position. The same is true for midfielders and defenders.

civilu wrote:

PS:
I was right, my keeper was MVP, even if he had 12 saves, while the opposing keeper had 14. Possibly because mine didn't concede 4... :)

Some (fun?) facts of the game:
- SC 13 (TS) to 17 (me)
- 2 goals I scored are from players with 0 shooting, who got 3 shots total, all 3 on goal, 1 goal each
- the main striker (playing as central def.) got 3 interception, while my main defender (playing center def. also) got only 1 - they have 3 and respectively 10 in tack

I could go on... but this is just... crazy!

Yeah, it's teaches you a lot about what skills players need to score and tackle respectively.

I once had a Right Back that kept moving forward to become my main striker late in games. I wondered why until I looked into my alternative tactics and found players all over the park playing out of position. But the surprising thing was despite his 2-3 balls in shooting and heading he scored regularly and bagged multiple goals often. So for a while I kept him there even after fixing other playing positions in my alternative tactics.

From this I learnt players don't need high ball counts to score regularly, as the overall balls your team has will counteract one or two players playing out of position. The same is true for midfielders and defenders.

Re: A Standard 4-4-2 Success Story

By aarons - 17-10-2017 14:25

[MZ]

more ballZzzz Hmmmmmm

scruttino wrote:

Yeah, it's teaches you a lot about what skills players need to score and tackle respectively.

I once had a Right Back that kept moving forward to become my main striker late in games. I wondered why until I looked into my alternative tactics and found players all over the park playing out of position. But the surprising thing was despite his 2-3 balls in shooting and heading he scored regularly and bagged multiple goals often. So for a while I kept him there even after fixing other playing positions in my alternative tactics.

From this I learnt players don't need high ball counts to score regularly, as the overall balls your team has will counteract one or two players playing out of position. The same is true for midfielders and defenders.

more ballZzzz Hmmmmmm

Re: A Standard 4-4-2 Success Story

By civilu - 18-10-2017 08:25

[RAF]
President

This is something even [b]Darkline[/b] investigated a few seasons ago, in the old passing sim (actually this sim but where 321... was tactical king) and he got pretty good results with inversed teams (keeper was striker, strikers were defenders and keeper) but, if memory serves me right, in the overall analysis it resulted that the majority of games you lose because, still, players don't have what it takes for their exact position. However, it resulted also that teams/players also benefit from an [b]average count of balls per player factor[/b], meaning that even if they are not best suited for a position on the field (e.g. defenders playing as strikers) they still play far above what they look like just because the team average is superior. And this, imo, is not right. Just as it is not right to have old players, nowadays, runing alongside superior players in speed and stamina. 6/7 speed should not be able to catch a 10/9 player in the first at least 60-70 minutes, indifferent of their pi & experience skills, which compensate.

scruttino wrote:

From this I learnt players don't need high ball counts to score regularly, as the overall balls your team has will counteract one or two players playing out of position. The same is true for midfielders and defenders.

This is something even Darkline investigated a few seasons ago, in the old passing sim (actually this sim but where 321... was tactical king) and he got pretty good results with inversed teams (keeper was striker, strikers were defenders and keeper) but, if memory serves me right, in the overall analysis it resulted that the majority of games you lose because, still, players don't have what it takes for their exact position.

However, it resulted also that teams/players also benefit from an average count of balls per player factor, meaning that even if they are not best suited for a position on the field (e.g. defenders playing as strikers) they still play far above what they look like just because the team average is superior. And this, imo, is not right.

Just as it is not right to have old players, nowadays, runing alongside superior players in speed and stamina. 6/7 speed should not be able to catch a 10/9 player in the first at least 60-70 minutes, indifferent of their pi & experience skills, which compensate.

 

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