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14 year old youth player

By hanzinho - 26-09-2017 14:37

[WCE]
President

I guess I caught somebodies attention with that headline ;) I am not suggesting to lower the age youths arrive at our club. What I am suggesting is that youth players who are arriving our clubs have a somewhat correlation between startup balls and potential. Look at these two: [img]http://thedeepzone.no/gaia/youth_systemo.png[/img] I was in a dire need of a 16 year old goalkeeper, and have been for the entire season. Kristian Johanson knocked on my door, and he was wearing keeper gloves. He came with a whopping 3,75 balls in the keeper attribute. I checked his potential through a scout report, only to find out he has a potential as a midfielder. This means he has trained incorrectly previously. I took my chances with him anyways, as there was no financial risk involved. I sent him to a youth conditional camp, where he received around 70 days of training in keeping in just one week. He maxed at 5. Now, a week later, another fellow knocks on the door, and by the looks of it, a midfielder. Perhaps a striker? Could be a winger also? Wrong, Albert is a goalkeeper according to the scout report. Not only has he 1 ball in keeping, its a flat 1,0 ball. Obviously it is an attribute this kid never trained. These two examples above aren't some freak occurance. I have them happening all the time, almost at a level where I feel there is an anti-correlation. Surely it should be important that the youth system makes sense, so that new managers (in particular) doesn't end up training their goalies as strikers, their strikers as goalies etc etc?I guess I caught somebodies attention with that headline ;)

I am not suggesting to lower the age youths arrive at our club.
What I am suggesting is that youth players who are arriving our clubs have a somewhat correlation between startup balls and potential.

Look at these two:



I was in a dire need of a 16 year old goalkeeper, and have been for the entire season.

Kristian Johanson knocked on my door, and he was wearing keeper gloves. He came with a whopping 3,75 balls in the keeper attribute. I checked his potential through a scout report, only to find out he has a potential as a midfielder. This means he has trained incorrectly previously. I took my chances with him anyways, as there was no financial risk involved. I sent him to a youth conditional camp, where he received around 70 days of training in keeping in just one week. He maxed at 5.

Now, a week later, another fellow knocks on the door, and by the looks of it, a midfielder. Perhaps a striker? Could be a winger also? Wrong, Albert is a goalkeeper according to the scout report. Not only has he 1 ball in keeping, its a flat 1,0 ball. Obviously it is an attribute this kid never trained.

These two examples above aren't some freak occurance. I have them happening all the time, almost at a level where I feel there is an anti-correlation.

Surely it should be important that the youth system makes sense, so that new managers (in particular) doesn't end up training their goalies as strikers, their strikers as goalies etc etc?

 

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Re: 14 year old youth player

By chucky06 - 26-09-2017 15:27

[AUSNZ]
President

Scout reports are only an indication of where a player might be best suited. It displays three skills the player will obtain a minimum of 6 balls in. It's only a guide for positions and not to be used as gospel. Plenty of youth who Scout as defenders end up being great strikers for example.Scout reports are only an indication of where a player might be best suited. It displays three skills the player will obtain a minimum of 6 balls in. It's only a guide for positions and not to be used as gospel. Plenty of youth who Scout as defenders end up being great strikers for example.

Re: 14 year old youth player

By civilu - 26-09-2017 17:17

[RAF]
President

[b]Hanz[/b], You and I both know this has been broughy on several times and I also agree that sometimes - many times - it looks more like an anti-correlation between balls and scout reports. Crew, if I am not mistaken, promised some time ago that will take the matter into consideration when revamping the youth system - TCs, Conditioning TCs, choice of age, consistent automatic choice of YTCs etc. [u]They did the rest yet they forgot this[/u]. We are now in the same situation as in the begining, when we receive reports (that we pay for!, no matter the small value) which contradict the real "potential" of a player, only to find that common sense and a "nose" trained in decades of seasons of training youth is still better than the system that MZ proposes. [u]Nobody said we want a sure thing[/u] - the maxings even at 5 balls (FIVE, not six, [b]Chucky[/b]!) can keep this a roulette as any other in MZ yet, indeed, [u]some corelation between balls and MZ-assigned position[/u] (as per the scout report or YTC automatic choice) [u]would be recommendable[/u].Hanz,
You and I both know this has been broughy on several times and I also agree that sometimes - many times - it looks more like an anti-correlation between balls and scout reports.

Crew, if I am not mistaken, promised some time ago that will take the matter into consideration when revamping the youth system - TCs, Conditioning TCs, choice of age, consistent automatic choice of YTCs etc. They did the rest yet they forgot this.

We are now in the same situation as in the begining, when we receive reports (that we pay for!, no matter the small value) which contradict the real "potential" of a player, only to find that common sense and a "nose" trained in decades of seasons of training youth is still better than the system that MZ proposes.

Nobody said we want a sure thing - the maxings even at 5 balls (FIVE, not six, Chucky!) can keep this a roulette as any other in MZ yet, indeed, some corelation between balls and MZ-assigned position (as per the scout report or YTC automatic choice) would be recommendable.

Re: 14 year old youth player

By hanzinho - 26-09-2017 18:11

[WCE]
President

I have created a TZ article for Norwegian users regarding this issue, as it is a massive pitfall. Unless you are aware of this lack of correlation between startup balls and the players actual potential (how far he can get in each attribute), you will end up training most of your youth players incorrectly. This is especially true for new and inexperienced users. If you receive a youth player which has 3 balls in keeping and hardly any balls elsewhere, you will assume that this is a keeper. That is, unless you have played MZ for awhile and know that is often the other way around... And vice versa if you receive a player with 0 or 1 ball in keeping. Youth players are basically the first thing a new manager is faced with, and it should make sense. If things are upside-down and completely illogical, then it reduces the chance they will stick around. Here are some screendumps I have taken just these last few seasons. [img]http://thedeepzone.no/core_img/tips/c01.png[/img][img]http://thedeepzone.no/core_img/tips/c02.png[/img][img]http://thedeepzone.no/core_img/tips/c03.png[/img][img]http://thedeepzone.no/core_img/tips/c04.png[/img][img]http://thedeepzone.no/core_img/tips/c05.png[/img][img]http://thedeepzone.no/core_img/tips/c06.png[/img][img]http://thedeepzone.no/core_img/tips/c07.png[/img][img]http://thedeepzone.no/core_img/tips/c08.png[/img][img]http://thedeepzone.no/core_img/tips/c09.png[/img]I have created a TZ article for Norwegian users regarding this issue, as it is a massive pitfall. Unless you are aware of this lack of correlation between startup balls and the players actual potential (how far he can get in each attribute), you will end up training most of your youth players incorrectly. This is especially true for new and inexperienced users.

If you receive a youth player which has 3 balls in keeping and hardly any balls elsewhere, you will assume that this is a keeper. That is, unless you have played MZ for awhile and know that is often the other way around...
And vice versa if you receive a player with 0 or 1 ball in keeping.

Youth players are basically the first thing a new manager is faced with, and it should make sense. If things are upside-down and completely illogical, then it reduces the chance they will stick around.

Here are some screendumps I have taken just these last few seasons.

Re: 14 year old youth player

By aldebaran - 26-09-2017 20:39

the whole scout/youth TC package is a mess simply because it's tightly knit with the randomness of maximization and/or training rate it was a great feature when it got introduced, but now, after all those seasons of gathering statistics, it seems (almost) that it's "broken" If you are one of those managers that train players from their youth till they retire, you know what I mean ps. how can the scout report/youth TC, define a player's position, when the player's in MZ don't have defined positions? for me, that the definition of the report/YTC outcome is all about the player's position, is just plain wrong CREW should come out and explain 100% what's the [u]logic[/u] behind report/YTC and [u]how[/u] it works by using numbers and even by posting some code if they like just my 50 (loaned from the ECB) euro centsthe whole scout/youth TC package is a mess
simply because it's tightly knit with the randomness of maximization and/or training rate

it was a great feature when it got introduced, but now, after all those seasons of gathering statistics, it seems (almost) that it's "broken"

If you are one of those managers that train players from their youth till they retire, you know what I mean

ps. how can the scout report/youth TC, define a player's position, when the player's in MZ don't have defined positions?

for me, that the definition of the report/YTC outcome is all about the player's position, is just plain wrong

CREW should come out and explain 100% what's the logic behind report/YTC and how it works by using numbers and even by posting some code if they like

just my 50 (loaned from the ECB) euro cents

Re: 14 year old youth player

By dowopado - 26-09-2017 21:40

[BotP]

Having been an athlete in my younger years...not in soccer...but in American football, basketball and track...it amazes me how the youth academy program seems to be ass backwards from reality. I mean how can you have youth coming into an academy with no, or nominal, skills in speed and stamina at the age of 16. I see the problem in the youth program as threefold: 1. Youth coming into the academy with unrealistic skills...that is, more skill training in technical areas than in basic skills of speed, stamina, PI, etc. 2. As mention by hazhino, the non-correlation of the scouting/YTC reports to actual skills obtained from pre-academy training...by whom I don't know. The problem would not exist if the proper skills were trained according to #1. mentioned above. This is even more evident in the likes of 'loyal players'...not that I have seen very many of those...and not that they come in with any scouting report but the illogical training of them seems to be evident. 3. Youth coming into the academy with far less @s than would really be conducive to a 16 year old....I mean really...anything less than 15 to 18 balls is just not realistic...imo.Having been an athlete in my younger years...not in soccer...but in American football, basketball and track...it amazes me how the youth academy program seems to be ass backwards from reality. I mean how can you have youth coming into an academy with no, or nominal, skills in speed and stamina at the age of 16.

I see the problem in the youth program as threefold:
1. Youth coming into the academy with unrealistic skills...that is, more skill training in technical areas than in basic skills of speed, stamina, PI, etc.
2. As mention by hazhino, the non-correlation of the scouting/YTC reports to actual skills obtained from pre-academy training...by whom I don't know. The problem would not exist if the proper skills were trained according to #1. mentioned above. This is even more evident in the likes of 'loyal players'...not that I have seen very many of those...and not that they come in with any scouting report but the illogical training of them seems to be evident.
3. Youth coming into the academy with far less @s than would really be conducive to a 16 year old....I mean really...anything less than 15 to 18 balls is just not realistic...imo.

Re: 14 year old youth player

By girondins77 - 26-09-2017 23:00

[Nati]
President

personally, I abandoned all above...[:(] I resigned to see those "scouted attributes" as being just a perpetual (3 years) option choice for TC package, whatever the timing to send young into it. in any case, it all ends to maxing for mepersonally, I abandoned all above...:(

I resigned to see those "scouted attributes" as being just a perpetual (3 years) option choice for TC package, whatever the timing to send young into it.

in any case, it all ends to maxing for me

Re: 14 year old youth player

By civilu - 27-09-2017 11:35

[RAF]
President

It's highly unlikely to see any of this since it is, imo, impossible. I don't know this for sure but both [b]Cattleyard[/b] and [b]Patrick[/b] (former CEOs of MZ, for those who don't know/remember) had to admit that the system needs total redoing since, admittedly or not, it's not possible anymore to go into that part of the coding, which was designed at the very beginining and is unidentifiable after the merger of the games, in the early days. Probably this is the reason why they can't change things like player value, since it's another root feature, buried deep into initial MZ coding.

aldebaran wrote:

CREW should come out and explain 100% what's the logic behind report/YTC and how it works by using numbers and even by posting some code if they like

It's highly unlikely to see any of this since it is, imo, impossible. I don't know this for sure but both Cattleyard and Patrick (former CEOs of MZ, for those who don't know/remember) had to admit that the system needs total redoing since, admittedly or not, it's not possible anymore to go into that part of the coding, which was designed at the very beginining and is unidentifiable after the merger of the games, in the early days. Probably this is the reason why they can't change things like player value, since it's another root feature, buried deep into initial MZ coding.

Re: 14 year old youth player

By aldebaran - 27-09-2017 11:37

MZ:Reboot, the new kickstart project, coming soon...MZ:Reboot, the new kickstart project, coming soon...

Re: 14 year old youth player

By evosa - 27-09-2017 18:37

[LEGEND]

Just gona use this example [:P] Maybe he was good defender in his early career but your scout sees him as striker? In real life alot of players have played very different positions in their youth. Lets take a look at some: [b]Cesc Fàbregas[/b] "His initial training was as a defensive midfielder" "he was a prolific scorer, sometimes scoring even more than 30 goals in a season for the club's youth teams" [b]Eden Hazard[/b] "He played mainly as a defensive midfielder." [b]Matts Hummels[/b] "started his career as an aspiring striker" This 3 minute research showed that there are players who have changed positions in their careers. I guess digging deeper would provide more stats like that.

hanzinho wrote:

Just gona use this example

Maybe he was good defender in his early career but your scout sees him as striker? In real life alot of players have played very different positions in their youth. Lets take a look at some:

Cesc Fàbregas
"His initial training was as a defensive midfielder"
"he was a prolific scorer, sometimes scoring even more than 30 goals in a season for the club's youth teams"

Eden Hazard
"He played mainly as a defensive midfielder."

Matts Hummels
"started his career as an aspiring striker"

This 3 minute research showed that there are players who have changed positions in their careers. I guess digging deeper would provide more stats like that.

Re: 14 year old youth player

By hanzinho - 27-09-2017 19:22

[WCE]
President

They are the exception. Most of the players in real life found their position even in kindergarden. Wayne Rooney bagged goals as a STRIKER even when he was wearing diaper. If Rooney had been born on MZ, he would arrive with 3 in keeping and 0 in shooting. He would not score the winning goal in a top league match at the age of 16. Diego Maradona also started his career in the "correct" position, and not as a goalie. You want me to go on? I have a few more names.. ;) That said, comparing MZ with real life is like comparing something as random as the hip-bone of a dog with the asteroid belts around Saturn. You need strong medication to "see" any paralells. I thought they had cleaned up that mess long time ago [:O] That would explain why certain core elements remain untouched year after year. I remember they looked for months to find where the "home team advantage" was coded, so they could remove it. This was probably a good 10 years ago. First they claimed that there was no such thing as a home team advantage, but that didn't remove the home team advantage, strangely enough. TC is a relatively new feature in this aspect, so they should have full access and control over its code. That said, it is unlikely they will reveal any details about YTC, and I agree with this. It should be some mystique regarding it. A quick fix would be to slightly adjust the player generation process, so that the balls for the most part falls where the cones are. You should be allowed to tell a goalie from an outfield player atleast, even without using YTC.They are the exception. Most of the players in real life found their position even in kindergarden.

Wayne Rooney bagged goals as a STRIKER even when he was wearing diaper. If Rooney had been born on MZ, he would arrive with 3 in keeping and 0 in shooting. He would not score the winning goal in a top league match at the age of 16.

Diego Maradona also started his career in the "correct" position, and not as a goalie. You want me to go on? I have a few more names.. ;)

That said, comparing MZ with real life is like comparing something as random as the hip-bone of a dog with the asteroid belts around Saturn. You need strong medication to "see" any paralells.

civilu wrote:

It's highly unlikely to see any of this since it is, imo, impossible. I don't know this for sure but both Cattleyard and Patrick (former CEOs of MZ, for those who don't know/remember) had to admit that the system needs total redoing since, admittedly or not, it's not possible anymore to go into that part of the coding, which was designed at the very beginining and is unidentifiable after the merger of the games, in the early days. Probably this is the reason why they can't change things like player value, since it's another root feature, buried deep into initial MZ coding.

I thought they had cleaned up that mess long time ago :O
That would explain why certain core elements remain untouched year after year.

I remember they looked for months to find where the "home team advantage" was coded, so they could remove it. This was probably a good 10 years ago. First they claimed that there was no such thing as a home team advantage, but that didn't remove the home team advantage, strangely enough.

TC is a relatively new feature in this aspect, so they should have full access and control over its code. That said, it is unlikely they will reveal any details about YTC, and I agree with this. It should be some mystique regarding it.

A quick fix would be to slightly adjust the player generation process, so that the balls for the most part falls where the cones are. You should be allowed to tell a goalie from an outfield player atleast, even without using YTC.

Re: 14 year old youth player

By scruttino - 28-09-2017 01:43

[AUSNZ]

Here is one example from my current squad, he has spent his entire senior career as a CB because he doesn't have enough passing, AP or BC to be put in the midfield. Everything about his youth training said he was a defender, but recently he achieved his 10th ball in shooting? [fpl=195388043] You'd still never play him as a striker because 7 BC is just not enough and he'd be too easy to tackle. But because of how my subs currently work, he becomes my designated penalty taker for the last 30 minutes of matches, casually jogging the length of the pitch from defense to line up the shot.Here is one example from my current squad, he has spent his entire senior career as a CB because he doesn't have enough passing, AP or BC to be put in the midfield.

Everything about his youth training said he was a defender, but recently he achieved his 10th ball in shooting?

Lawrence Feutrill

Age: 52 (Retired)

You'd still never play him as a striker because 7 BC is just not enough and he'd be too easy to tackle.

But because of how my subs currently work, he becomes my designated penalty taker for the last 30 minutes of matches, casually jogging the length of the pitch from defense to line up the shot.

Re: 14 year old youth player

By moopaman - 28-09-2017 03:41

[Canada]

I'd say most real life players usually start as strikers and then basically play further down the field the older they getI'd say most real life players usually start as strikers and then basically play further down the field the older they get

Re: 14 year old youth player

By aldebaran - 28-09-2017 08:51

well...when I was a kid playing in our luxurious sponsor free u14 street league, I started out as a LB and then moved on to MC when I mastered the art of "passing" and not just kicking the ball upfield :P at 15 I got transferred to the basketball street league...but that's another story :Pwell...when I was a kid playing in our luxurious sponsor free u14 street league, I started out as a LB and then moved on to MC when I mastered the art of "passing"
and not just kicking the ball upfield :P

at 15 I got transferred to the basketball street league...but that's another story :P

Re: 14 year old youth player

By diesel-7 - 29-09-2017 10:26

[AUSNZ]

I always thought it was six balls as well?? As long as i've been playing i've never had a player max at 5 balls for a "scouted" attribute

civilu wrote:

(FIVE, not six, Chucky!)

I always thought it was six balls as well??
As long as i've been playing i've never had a player max at 5 balls for a "scouted" attribute

Re: 14 year old youth player

By aldebaran - 29-09-2017 10:30

5 can happen it's a very rare thing (at least for me, I've only had 2 players maxed at 5@ in marked skills so far and that was ages ago)5 can happen
it's a very rare thing (at least for me, I've only had 2 players maxed at 5@ in marked skills so far and that was ages ago)

Re: 14 year old youth player

By hanzinho - 29-09-2017 11:32

[WCE]
President

There is no such rule as 5 or 6. Teoretically, it can even be 4.There is no such rule as 5 or 6. Teoretically, it can even be 4.

Re: 14 year old youth player

By ashleyhughes - 29-09-2017 13:02

[LEGEND]

How is he not a national player for Australia with 75 balls overall?

scruttino wrote:

Lawrence Feutrill

Age: 52 (Retired)

How is he not a national player for Australia with 75 balls overall?

Re: 14 year old youth player

By chucky06 - 29-09-2017 13:19

[AUSNZ]
President

7 BC and 7PI, 6 Head that's how. Surprisingly to some, we (Australia) have at least 4 "strikers" better than him7 BC and 7PI, 6 Head that's how.

Surprisingly to some, we (Australia) have at least 4 "strikers" better than him

Re: 14 year old youth player

By chucky06 - 29-09-2017 13:22

[AUSNZ]
President

He also for that matter of what position to play him wouldn't make it as a CB either, not ATM anyhow.He also for that matter of what position to play him wouldn't make it as a CB either, not ATM anyhow.

Re: 14 year old youth player

By bestplaymaker2134 - 29-09-2017 13:34

[AUSNZ]

http://mzplayer.se/?id=0929112454 Who would you play as centre back in wings? I got rid of stamina because we have subs, and shooting because defenders.

ashleyhughes wrote:

How is he not a national player for Australia with 75 balls overall?

http://mzplayer.se/?id=0929112454

Who would you play as centre back in wings?

I got rid of stamina because we have subs, and shooting because defenders.

Re: 14 year old youth player

By scruttino - 29-09-2017 14:29

[AUSNZ]

I've had a few players max at 4 speed over the years

hanzinho wrote:

There is no such rule as 5 or 6. Teoretically, it can even be 4.

I've had a few players max at 4 speed over the years

Re: 14 year old youth player

By ashleyhughes - 30-09-2017 02:02

[LEGEND]

That's fair enough, it intrigued me that he had so many balls for his age, i would have said CB myself. As for those 3 defenders, it's a toss up between the 2nd or 3rd one if the other team plays wings but would depend on their level of stamina personally even if they are editted out for the sake of comparison. Suppose it would help if you had more AP & PI to combat wings too.

chucky06 wrote:

7 BC and 7PI, 6 Head that's how.

Surprisingly to some, we (Australia) have at least 4 "strikers" better than him

That's fair enough, it intrigued me that he had so many balls for his age, i would have said CB myself.

As for those 3 defenders, it's a toss up between the 2nd or 3rd one if the other team plays wings but would depend on their level of stamina personally even if they are editted out for the sake of comparison.

Suppose it would help if you had more AP & PI to combat wings too.

Re: 14 year old youth player

By hanzinho - 30-09-2017 02:33

[WCE]
President

I am officially unsubscribing from this thread.I am officially unsubscribing from this thread.

Re: 14 year old youth player

By bestplaymaker2134 - 30-09-2017 02:35

[AUSNZ]

Sorry what was the thread about?

hanzinho wrote:

I am officially unsubscribing from this thread.

Sorry what was the thread about?

 

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